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Old 11-05-2012, 10:11 AM   #26
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
Maybe he was not 100 % sure that he would survive, and he did not want to give her any false hopes

OR

Maybe because he wanted everyone to believe that this was the the last time they would see Batman.
Still doesn't make any sense, seems like that was just thrown in to make the audience think he died in the explosion and then later tadaaaaaaa he made it. That bit really annoys me as I expect so much more from Nolan. Besides there was only Catwoman and Gordan there both he revealed to that he survived the explosion before the film ends.

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Old 11-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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Still doesn't make any sense, seems like that was just thrown in to make the audience think he died in the explosion and then later tadaaaaaaa he made it.
That's exactly why it was done. If he mentioned autopilot there then nobody would really be believing he died. As it is some people criticize that he couldn't have survived a mere two seconds before that bomb went off anyway since he's have been fried in the blast of a nuclear bomb.

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Old 11-05-2012, 10:34 AM   #28
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That's exactly why it was done. If he mentioned autopilot there then nobody would really be believing he died. As it is some people criticize that he couldn't have survived a mere two seconds before that bomb went off anyway since he's have been fried in the blast of a nuclear bomb.
He could have said nothing about it, and still people would have assumed that Batman did not survive the explosion.

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Old 11-05-2012, 10:46 AM   #29
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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He could have said nothing about it, and still people would have assumed that Batman did not survive the explosion.
What do you mean could have? He didn't say anything about it. That's the point. It wasn't mentioned to fool people into thinking he had died. The question asked was why didn't he tell Selina about the auto pilot in the first place.

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Old 11-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #30
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What do you mean could have? He didn't say anything about it. That's the point. It wasn't mentioned to fool people into thinking he had died. The question asked was why didn't he tell Selina about the auto pilot in the first place.
Batman told Selina that the Bat had no Auto pilot (as far as I can remember, I've seen the movie only two times.)

Here is what the Official novelization says -

Batman: "Two minutes, I can fly it out over the bay."

Catwoman:"Rig it to fly over the water, then bail..."

he shook his head.

Batman: "No autopilot."

To me it sounds as if he was not entirely sure that autopilot would work, so he wanted to fly the Bat himself (to get rid of the nuke), but then he was not sure that he would survive the blast, so he lied about the whole autopilot thing, just so that Selina should not have a false hope of seeing him again.

OR

That he wanted he to believe that he was going to die when he was fully confident that he will escape the blast radius.He wanted everyone to believe that he died.

Personally speaking, I prefer the first reason.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:01 PM   #31
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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What do you mean could have? He didn't say anything about it. That's the point. It wasn't mentioned to fool people into thinking he had died. The question asked was why didn't he tell Selina about the auto pilot in the first place.
he doesn't tell Selina because he's about to try to get rid of a nuke and he's not sure he actually will make it out of the blast radius or if the autopilot will fail, etc. He's not about to give her the same false hope that kept him crippled emotionally until Alfred told him the truth haunt Selina. And also for the obvious crippling of the dramatic effect. If you talk about the autopilot, it puts the seeds of doubt in the entire audiences mind, thereby losing any emotional impact.


Also, to the claims that he didn't have time, I mean come on, it's editing, we have no idea when exactly he left, when he engaged the autopilot, when he has that final moment of acceptance, etc. Brilliant misdirection through editing that clearly worked very well considering the reactions from people. I myself was nearly in tears.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:31 PM   #32
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins View Post
Batman told Selina that the Bat had no Auto pilot (as far as I can remember, I've seen the movie only two times.)

Here is what the Official novelization says -

Batman: "Two minutes, I can fly it out over the bay."

Catwoman:"Rig it to fly over the water, then bail..."

he shook his head.

Batman: "No autopilot."
Batman: I can get it out over the bay.
Batman: Set it to fly over the water, then eject?
Batman: No autopilot.

Quote:
To me it sounds as if he was not entirely sure that autopilot would work, so he wanted to fly the Bat himself (to get rid of the nuke), but then he was not sure that he would survive the blast, so he lied about the whole autopilot thing, just so that Selina should not have a false hope of seeing him again.
He flew The Bat out himself because he wanted everyone to think he was dead (for what reason Bruce Wayne had to die, too, I have no idea. It's not as though the whole city knew his secret identity) and all he did was put those he loved through needless pain.

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he doesn't tell Selina because he's about to try to get rid of a nuke and he's not sure he actually will make it out of the blast radius or if the autopilot will fail, etc. He's not about to give her the same false hope that kept him crippled emotionally until Alfred told him the truth haunt Selina.
That's not a false hope. Telling her it has autopilot is not a lie. Being unsure it can work is not a lie either. How is this any worse than letting her think he's going to die when there's every chance he can survive?

Hope is only false if it's based on a lie.

Quote:
And also for the obvious crippling of the dramatic effect. If you talk about the autopilot, it puts the seeds of doubt in the entire audiences mind, thereby losing any emotional impact.
That's the only reason why it wasn't mentioned. None of this flowery false hope stuff to Selina. It was so the impact of his return would not be diminished by mentioning The Bat has autopilot.

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Also, to the claims that he didn't have time, I mean come on, it's editing, we have no idea when exactly he left, when he engaged the autopilot, when he has that final moment of acceptance, etc.
The timer on the bomb couple with the facial expression of him sitting in the bat just before it went off tells you exactly what the timing was.

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Old 11-05-2012, 12:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

I also have no idea why Wayne had to die or even Batman for that reason. If whats his head is going to be continuing as Batman anyways, then why would you have him Batman die? Wayne could have basically just retired (as he did anyways) and moved away with Selina regardless. The only reason to fake a death would have been to get loved ones off your back, but then, he revealed to those he loved (gordon,fox,selina,alfred) that he was alive anyways. So who did he really fake out? A bunch of gotmamites that wouldn't have cared one way or the other and that didn't know he was Batman anyways?

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Old 11-05-2012, 01:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

I don't think he planned that far ahead , much less knowing he would have to use The Bat to take the bomb. In that moment he feels its better to exclude everyone from what he intends to do. We dont even know if he even thought about going all the way. The character was always portrayed as being very conflicted.

Or he could be not sure of his autopilot fix

It's not a plothole (this term is a little overused). It actually raises questions to Bruce's behavior in the movie , and if he really changed. For us the audience , and for him as a character. He doesn't even know if he will succeed.

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Old 11-05-2012, 01:36 PM   #35
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I also have no idea why Wayne had to die or even Batman for that reason. If whats his head is going to be continuing as Batman anyways, then why would you have him Batman die? Wayne could have basically just retired (as he did anyways) and moved away with Selina regardless. The only reason to fake a death would have been to get loved ones off your back, but then, he revealed to those he loved (gordon,fox,selina,alfred) that he was alive anyways. So who did he really fake out? A bunch of gotmamites that wouldn't have cared one way or the other and that didn't know he was Batman anyways?
Legacies. Its one of the major theme of the trilogy.

Him being a martyr for the City , putting his life on the line for Gotham , reinforces immensely his achievements.

Symbols are everlasting.

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Old 11-05-2012, 01:46 PM   #36
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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That's not a false hope. Telling her it has autopilot is not a lie. Being unsure it can work is not a lie either. How is this any worse than letting her think he's going to die when there's every chance he can survive?

Hope is only false if it's based on a lie.
Every chance? The chances are small at best. Also, this was extremely time sensitive, not a time to linger in this emotional moment longer than it has to.
Quote:
That's the only reason why it wasn't mentioned. None of this flowery false hope stuff to Selina. It was so the impact of his return would not be diminished by mentioning The Bat has autopilot.
They are both completely viable reasons.

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The timer on the bomb couple with the facial expression of him sitting in the bat just before it went off tells you exactly what the timing was.
Not necessarily, it could just be dual editing using his reaction as one sequence and the timer as another to build the tension of the timer counting down. In fact given that it's impossible for him to have survived otherwise, I think this is probably what Nolan did, and it's only apparent upon the second viewing. Excellent misdirection with editing.

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Old 11-05-2012, 01:58 PM   #37
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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I also have no idea why Wayne had to die or even Batman for that reason. If whats his head is going to be continuing as Batman anyways, then why would you have him Batman die? Wayne could have basically just retired (as he did anyways) and moved away with Selina regardless. The only reason to fake a death would have been to get loved ones off your back, but then, he revealed to those he loved (gordon,fox,selina,alfred) that he was alive anyways. So who did he really fake out? A bunch of gotmamites that wouldn't have cared one way or the other and that didn't know he was Batman anyways?
Quoted for truth.

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Every chance? The chances are small at best.
How do ya know that? Did you fix the autopilot?

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Not necessarily, it could just be dual editing using his reaction as one sequence and the timer as another to build the tension of the timer counting down. In fact given that it's impossible for him to have survived otherwise, I think this is probably what Nolan did, and it's only apparent upon the second viewing. Excellent misdirection with editing.
When has Nolan ever used dual editing? It was real time. Otherwise it didn't make sense the way it was shot.

It's impossible he survived that's why it's a plot hole. Movie has tons of 'em.

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Old 11-05-2012, 02:45 PM   #38
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

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I also have no idea why Wayne had to die or even Batman for that reason. If whats his head is going to be continuing as Batman anyways, then why would you have him Batman die? Wayne could have basically just retired (as he did anyways) and moved away with Selina regardless. The only reason to fake a death would have been to get loved ones off your back, but then, he revealed to those he loved (gordon,fox,selina,alfred) that he was alive anyways. So who did he really fake out? A bunch of gotmamites that wouldn't have cared one way or the other and that didn't know he was Batman anyways?
Exactly. The batsignal is repaired at the end, Batman is coming back. So why did he need to die if the city is getting Batman again anyway?

It was all emotional fluff.

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Every chance? The chances are small at best.
Why? Was it specified somewhere that the autopilot system rarely works?

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Also, this was extremely time sensitive, not a time to linger in this emotional moment longer than it has to.
How would saying he's going to try and use the autopilot do that?

Quote:
They are both completely viable reasons.
One of them is.

Quote:
]Not necessarily, it could just be dual editing using his reaction as one sequence and the timer as another to build the tension of the timer counting down.
Since that's not a technique I've seen Nolan use in the past in his movies, and it definitely did not come across in that way either, I'd say that's just conjecture.

I think it is the way it is presented. No misdirection.

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In fact given that it's impossible for him to have survived otherwise, I think this is probably what Nolan did, and it's only apparent upon the second viewing.
That is why people complain Batman could not have survived, because that's not how it was done. This is just a theory on your behalf. One the movie doesn't support.

Lets face it, it's not the first time gaps of logic have happened in this movie or the previous two.

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Legacies. Its one of the major theme of the trilogy.

Him being a martyr for the City , putting his life on the line for Gotham , reinforces immensely his achievements.

Symbols are everlasting.
But Batman is coming back in the form of Blake. So the death was unnecessary. Saving the city and still being alive wouldn't diminish the heroics of his act.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:24 PM   #39
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Are you the new writer hired by WB to make the sequel to The Dark Knight Rises ?

One movie at a time. The one i saw ended with Blake rising in a platform. Stories have themes , notions and concepts that are build upon. Blake is a personification of a lot of them. Its kinda a frequent tool in narratives....

(he's also a much less conflicted character than Bruce)

Bruce didn't know if Blake would take that role and accept what he left. The city also commemorated the action of the martyr. They also dont know. We as an audience also dont know. He is a literal figure regarding symbols. That's why the trilogy ends with him !

But you are already making assumptions about non-existant movies , so its kinda hard to discuss....

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But Batman is coming back in the form of Blake. So the death was unnecessary. Saving the city and still being alive wouldn't diminish the heroics of his act.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:39 PM   #40
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Are you the new writer hired by WB to make the sequel to The Dark Knight Rises ?
You really are getting irritable today aren't you. Are we going to have to get a Mod to have a word with you because I'm really not in the mood for your snarky remarks.

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One movie at a time. The one i saw ended with Blake rising in a platform. Stories have themes , notions and concepts that are build upon. Blake is a personification of a lot of them. Its kinda a frequent tool in narratives....
Right so what are you saying? Bruce gave him access to the Batcave just so he can have a place to hang out?

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Bruce didn't know if Blake would take that role and accept what he left.
But he knew he also could. It's more likely he would since you know they are supposed to be mirror images of each other. Which means a new Batman. Which makes his death as Batman and Bruce Wayne pointless. It was pointless anyway since dead or alive, his heroic acts as Batman would still be inspiring no matter what.

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The city also commemorated the action of the martyr. They also dont know. We as an audience also dont know.
Don't know what?

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He is a literal figure regarding symbols. That's why the trilogy ends with him. But you are already making assumptions about non-existant movies , so its kinda hard to discuss....
Oh I'm so sorry, I didn't know since there was no sequel we could not discuss the meaning and implications of the ending.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:43 PM   #41
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

So he would have a choice.

They dont know that Batman or some other form of vigilante might come back.

The implications of the ending are the reactions to Bruce's actions. Our main character.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:48 PM   #42
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So he would have a choice.
A choice? Don't you mean so he could carry on the mantle of the Batman?

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They dont know that Batman or some other form of vigilante might come back.
They will if he comes back as Batman. And Bruce seemed mighty confident he would since he repaired the batsignal on Police HQ.

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The implications of the ending are the reactions to Bruce's actions. Our main character.
The reactions of Bruce's actions? The reaction of Bruce's actions is Blake being handed the Batman mantle. Gordon being overjoyed at seeing a new batsignal.

Do you interpret all of this as there not being a new Batman for Gotham?

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:52 PM   #43
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The reaction of Blake is rising up to the moment. He's inspired by Batman's actions. He is a literal figure of the symbol . That is my interpretation.

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:53 PM   #44
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

Rising up to what moment? What's he rising up to? What's he being inspired to do?

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Old 11-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #45
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Rising up to what moment? What's he rising up to? What's he being inspired to do?
Inspired to do good. The important thing is how he's affected .

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:02 PM   #46
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Default Re: Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

Funny I thought that's what being a Cop was all about. Inspired to do good.

Putting on a Batman mask is just swapping one form of crime fighting for another.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:06 PM   #47
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Funny I thought that's what being a Cop was all about. Inspired to do good.

.
Flass says hi.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:07 PM   #48
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Flass says hi.
Yeah, because the reason Flass joined the force is the same reason as Blake. I mean their methods were identical.

Not a great comparison there. Flass was corrupt and clearly did not care about what it meant to be a Cop. Why do you think Blake joined the force?

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:13 PM   #49
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Why do you think Blake joined the force?
The mod asked me to walk away , and that's what i'll do. Boa Noite.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:35 PM   #50
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Speaking of the force...I would like to know when the position 'Deputy Commissioner' was created since that position wasn't shown in the past two Batman films, lol.

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