Small Plot Hole in TDKR?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

When has Nolan ever used dual editing? It was real time. Otherwise it didn't make sense the way it was shot.

Nolan always plays with time in both the writing and editing of his films. That's one of the things he's known for.

An example of this would be in TDK...during the chase scene. From cut to cut we end up with Bat-pod in a mall heading towards the garage, to him already well outside the mall and in the garage, then in the middle of a busy street between two cars to suddenly turning into an alley. Flat out jump cuts, almost like a mini montage, but then quickly back to real time.

Obviously the point of cutting the nuke sequence in such an elliptic way was to let us have the emotional response to Batman's death that the rest of the characters have. It's about prolonging tension for a bigger emotional catharsis. That's not the same as a plot hole. It's a plot omission, not a plot hole. The two are not synonymous. And yup, the movie has tons of 'em.

Oh, and before you say it- it's fine if you thought Batman's death was emotional fluff and cheating the audience, etc. Obviously I don't, otherwise I'd be on your side of the argument .

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Nolan always plays with time in both the writing and editing of his films. That's one of the things he's known for.

That's flashbacks.

An example of this would be in TDK...during the chase scene. From cut to cut we end up with Bat-pod in a mall heading towards the garage, to him already well outside the mall and in the garage, then in the middle of a busy street between two cars to suddenly turning into an alley. Flat out jump cuts, almost like a mini montage, but then quickly back to real time.

Nay. That's bad editing. That scene gets criticism for that even though it's still awesomeness.

Obviously the point of cutting the nuke sequence in such an elliptic way was to let us have the emotional response to Batman's death that the rest of the characters have. It's about prolonging tension for a bigger emotional catharsis.

Ehhh except it cuts from like 3 seconds on the bomb, to Batman's face, to BOOOOOOOOOM

That's not the same as a plot hole. It's a plot omission, not a plot hole. The two are not synonymous. And yup, the movie has tons of 'em.

Plot hole is It is the same as a plot hole cos even if he escaped at the 3 seconds or whatever he'd still be in blast radius since it's a 6 mile blast radius and he'd be toast.

Oh, and before you say it- it's fine if you thought Batman's death was emotional fluff and cheating the audience, etc. Obviously I don't, otherwise I'd be on your side of the argument .

Sweet.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

That's flashbacks.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ehhh except it cuts from like 3 seconds on the bomb, to Batman's face, to BOOOOOOOOOM

I'm saying that I think Batman's reaction shot could have been a "gotcha" flashback. It's done in a mysterious, open to interpretation way...that's one possible interpretation. Regardless of when it took place in relation to the bomb's timer, it's our last moment of Bruce in a Bat cowl in the trilogy and it's a reflective one. So it makes emotional sense to show it.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nay. That's bad editing. That scene gets criticism for that even though it's still awesomeness.

Maybe. I've questioned those choices in the past, but I would imagine Nolan and Lee Smith made a conscious decision there and weren't just chopping stuff up willy nilly. As a professional editor myself, I tend to let editors off the hook more because very often a producer/director has a particular reason for wanting things cut a certain way. And I can only imagine how particular Nolan is considering he shoots very economically and isn't a coverage hound, and usually has a very specific intent with each scene.

Also, completely random, but Lee Smith got robbed of an Oscar nomination for Inception.

[hammerhedd11]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nay. That's bad editing. That scene gets criticism for that even though it's still awesomeness.

It's not bad editing. It's just not conventional editing. Chris Nolan purposely breaks a lot of the rules of editing throughout his work for effect and it's become his style of sorts, a sort of montage editing. I personally never have had any problems with geography or orientation in the chase sequence. For example, the shot mentioned of Batman racing through the shopping mall, and the next shot is him shooting through the glass and exiting. We don't have a shot of him approaching the glass but we don't need to. Just as you can follow
a shot that switches to another scene, people don't flip out when you jump in space in this particular shot, because people understand the relationship of the shot and time. No one walks out in outrage when you jump ahead to the next day in a single shot, because you understand that relationship. That can work in a single scene as well as scene to scene.

That famous analysis of the chase scene is flawed because it rests on the assumption that you HAVE to follow the rules of conventional editing which is wrong and, most importantly, dull. He also treats audiences like they're idiots. NO ONE has any problem understanding Dent's placement in the scene, and for his supposedly in-depth analysis, he is completely and utterly wrong on some of his points that it just makes him look like he didn't understand what was going on.

[Anno_Domini]

Why do people assume something is bad when it's just their dislike?

Technically speaking, the editing isn't bad. It's just not the way you like it.

[hammerhedd11]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Why do people assume something is bad when it's just their dislike?

Technically speaking, the editing isn't bad. It's just not the way you like it.

Yeah. People can argue all they want about whether or not it works but it's purposely done. Nolan doesn't just throw s**t on screen.

[The Joker]

That Joker truck/Bat-Pod chase is my favorite action scene of the trilogy.

[hammerhedd11]

I second that. Although the first Batman/Bane fight comes close.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

That Joker truck/Bat-Pod chase is my favorite action scene of the trilogy.

It could possibly be a preference of villain because my favorite action sequence of the trilogy goes to Batman vs Bane in the sewers. Always wanted to see the 'Breaking of the Bat' on film.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

It could possibly be a preference of villain because my favorite action sequence of the trilogy goes to Batman vs Bane in the sewers. Always wanted to see the 'Breaking of the Bat' on film.

Definitely my favorite "fight scene". Never thought we'd see the breaking of the bat on film.

Favorite action/chase scene? Right now, it's either the convoy chase from TDK or the Stock exchange/Batman Returns scene.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by hammerhedd11

I second that. Although the first Batman/Bane fight comes close.

Excellent sequence, right from "don't be shy" to Bane ripping off the mask and dropping it to the ground. A highlight of the trilogy for sure.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by hammerhedd11

It's not bad editing. It's just not conventional editing. Chris Nolan purposely breaks a lot of the rules of editing throughout his work for effect and it's become his style of sorts, a sort of montage editing.

Thanks. Ya just proved my point by admitting Nolan breaks the rules of editing. Ya break the rules of editing then ya mess it up and the final cut looks off. That why it gets flak.

There was no magic screwy edit in the final shots with the bomb. The close up of Batman's puss is like seconds before the bomb goes boom.

[MasterOgami]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

There was no magic screwy edit in the final shots with the bomb. The close up of Batman's puss is like seconds before the bomb goes boom.

Its only seconds for the viewer, but possibly nearly a minute for Batman (I don't have a bootleg so I can't check). We see the close up of Batman in the cockpit before (and not even immediately before, as I recall) the last shot of the timer counting down (not the other way around as some have started to believe). So yeah, there's no timey-wimey weirdness or "magic screwy edit" going on in those moments, but there's also no mistake. It’s all rather straightforward:


-Bruce cables the bomb to the Bat with about a minute and a half remaining on the timer (I think, I'm sure someone can check.)
-Bruce takes it out over the bay. Close up shot in the cockpit.
-Unseen by anyone, including the audience, Bruce ejects. It of course happens off camera/between shots, otherwise the "surprise" at the end would be spoiled.
-the bomb's timer counts down its last seconds. At this point we can only guess how long the Bat's been on autopilot.


So while the editing definitely leads the audience into feeling as though Bruce was with the Bat up until the last seconds, it doesn't actually present that as what happened.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by AnneFan

Excellent sequence, right from "don't be shy" to Bane ripping off the mask and dropping it to the ground. A highlight of the trilogy for sure.

While I LOVED the Bane/Batman fight, I thought the Batman/Catwoman montage leading up to it was extremely cheesy.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MasterOgami

Its only seconds for the viewer, but possibly nearly a minute for Batman (I don't have a bootleg so I can't check). We see the close up of Batman in the cockpit before (and not even immediately before, as I recall) the last shot of the timer counting down (not the other way around as some have started to believe). So yeah, there's no timey-wimey weirdness or "magic screwy edit" going on in those moments, but there's also no mistake. It’s all rather straightforward:


-Bruce cables the bomb to the Bat with about a minute and a half remaining on the timer (I think, I'm sure someone can check.)
-Bruce takes it out over the bay. Close up shot in the cockpit.
-Unseen by anyone, including the audience, Bruce ejects. It of course happens off camera/between shots, otherwise the "surprise" at the end would be spoiled.
-the bomb's timer counts down its last seconds. At this point we can only guess how long the Bat's been on autopilot.


So while the editing definitely leads the audience into feeling as though Bruce was with the Bat up until the last seconds, it doesn't actually present that as what happened.

See, this is what I always thought. But I hadn't seen the film in a while and people started having me convinced that it went from the timer to Bruce. This is the most sensible explanation, and also the most simple.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

See, this is what I always thought. But I hadn't seen the film in a while and people started having me convinced that it went from the timer to Bruce. This is the most sensible explanation, and also the most simple.

The order is

Wide Shot (The Bat and the bomb attached) , Blake in the bridge, Batman , Horizon, Timer, Blake again, Explosion

Reading this topic i would recommend Walter Murch books about editing. They are very accessible , easy to read , and just a great way to learn basics about the whole process.

[BatLobsterRises]

Yup. Had to read "In the Blink of an Eye" for my advanced editing course in college.

[hammerhedd11]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Thanks. Ya just proved my point by admitting Nolan breaks the rules of editing. Ya break the rules of editing then ya mess it up and the final cut looks off. That why it gets flak.

There was no magic screwy edit in the final shots with the bomb. The close up of Batman's puss is like seconds before the bomb goes boom.

Yeah, but you're mistaken in the first place if you think a good movie has to "follow the rules" in the first place. Rules in art is such an arbitrary thing. Sure, they establish certain ground rules, but it's boring for the art form to say "you can't break the rules".
Great directors have been breaking the rules since the beginning of cinema. Kubrick, Kurosawa, Fellini, Welles, Murnau, Lang, Scorsese- they all break the rules and they do it on purpose. They innovate, and do things differently. Are you telling me these people "mess" up their films because they break the rules?

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yup. Had to read "In the Blink of an Eye" for my advanced editing course in college.

I've read them for pure curiosity of the process. Its one of those aspects where its very hard to grasp the meaning without experiencing it. Because i never had that (and will never have it), i think the books are a nice bridge for the uninitiated.