The (potential) Masters of Evil thread

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by xeno000

Loki is already Thanos' lackey. The story of how Thanos used Loki as his surrogate in seeking to obtain the Tesseract provided the subtext in The Avengers. Loki owes Thanos everything: his life, his scepter and the army he used to try to capture the Tesseract and conquer the Earth. Had Thanos not pulled Loki out of the void he would have died; had Thanos not given him power and an army he would never have been able to invade the Earth. Now that Loki has failed to fulfill his end of his bargain with the Mad Titan, he ought to be looking over his shoulder every second, in fear of the retribution that The Other promised.


In TA2 I hope we'll see all of Loki's chickens come home to roost in the form of an enraged Thanos seeking revenge. It's impossible to imagine that Thanos won't want to punish the Jotun traitor for failing him. Loki is a great villain, who deserves great suffering for his crimes. Hopefully we will see Loki tormented the way Gamora was, or at the very least enslaved like Mephisto, when Thanos finally gets around to dealing with Loki's failure.

Sorry, but that's a total misinterpretation of the relationship of Loki to Thanos in Avengers. The Other refers to Loki as an "ally," not a slave. The Other tells Loki he can have "his" (Loki's) war --- it's not a war that Thanos planned.

[first lines]
The Other: The Tesseract has awakened. It is on a little world. A human world. They would wield its power, but our ally knows its workings as they never will. He is ready to lead. And our force, our Chitauri, will follow. The world will be his. The universe yours. And the humans, what can they do but burn?

The Other: The Chitauri grow restless.
Loki: Let them go at themselves. I will lead them into glorious battle.
The Other: Battle? Against the meager might of Earth?
Loki: Glorious, not lengthy. If your force is as formidable as you claim.
The Other: You question us? You question HIM? He, who put the scepter in your hand, who gave you ancient knowledge and new purpose when you were cast out, defeated?
Loki: I was a king, the rightful king of Asgard! Betrayed!
The Other: Your ambition is little, born of childish need. We look beyond the Earth to greater worlds the Tesseract will unveil.
Loki: You don't have the Tesseract yet. I don't threaten, but until I open the doors, until your force is mine to command, you are but words.
The Other: You will have your war, Asgardian. If you fail, if the Tesseract is kept from us, there will be no realm, no barren moon, no crevice where he can't find you. You think you know pain? He will make you long for something as sweet as pain.

The Other: Humans... They are not the cowering wretches we were promised. They stand. They are unruly, and therefore cannot be ruled. To challenge them is to court death.

Loki came up with the plan to conquer Earth on his own, and he *asked* Thanos for the Chitauri, using the Cube as a bargaining chip. As far as Loki is concerned, they negotiated as equals; as far as Thanos is concerned, Loki is just some happy cosmic accident who stumbled onto his doorstep and might prove useful in Thanos' designs on Asgard --- but he is unworthy of Thanos' direct attention, so all the negotiations are handled by proxy through The Other.

[xeno000]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Sorry, but that's a total misinterpretation of the relationship of Loki to Thanos in Avengers. The Other refers to Loki as an "ally," not a slave. The Other tells Loki he can have "his" (Loki's) war --- it's not a war that Thanos planned.





Loki came up with the plan to conquer Earth on his own, and he *asked* Thanos for the Chitauri, using the Cube as a bargaining chip. As far as Loki is concerned, they negotiated as equals; as far as Thanos is concerned, Loki is just some happy cosmic accident who stumbled onto his doorstep and might prove useful in Thanos' designs on Asgard --- but he is unworthy of Thanos' direct attention, so all the negotiations are handled by proxy through The Other.

I never got the impression at all that Loki and Thanos are equals. Loki was putting a brave face on for The Other, but at the end of their meeting he was sent away in with a painful reminder of the horrors to come should he fail Thanos. And fail he did.


The very fact that Thanos did not deign to dirty his hands with Loki shows that their relationship was one of quite unequal power, no matter how much bravado Loki tried to show when talking to The Other. He may have hatched the plan to conquer Earth, but without Thanos he would never even have been able to come here, much less cause mayhem. Yes, The Other called Loki an "ally," but he was treated like a servant, given orders, threatened and not even allowed near his master's feet to plead his own case. Loki was only tolerated because he was of use to Thanos. And he was quite obviously afraid of the consequences of failure.


Consider the terms of the bargain, as well. Loki was given an army to conquer Earth and claim its imaginary throne, but in return he was going to give Thanos an object that would allow the Titan to rule the entire universe. That was the sort of deal only a fool or someone with pathetically limited vision would enter into. Thanos probably trusted that Loki lacked the wit and insight to realize that the Tesseract could give him ultimate power over all reality, not just the Earth. Loki had the mindset of a lackey, of an inferior, so it was safe for Thanos to use him as a pawn in his plans.

[cherokeesam]

That's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Loki knows nothing of Thanos' power, and he's blinded by "glorious (single-minded) purpose," so he's easily manipulated. Thanos plays him like a pawn, but Loki is completely oblivious that he's being used....*he* thinks he's bargaining with an equal, an "interstellar gangster" (or whatever Hiddie called him). He thought exchanging the Tesseract for the "throne" of Midgard was an equal trade. But Loki would've never viewed himself as a servant of Thanos --- in his mind, *he's* the genius, and Thanos is just a gangsta who wants a shiny magic wish-box.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

That's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Loki knows nothing of Thanos' power, and he's blinded by "glorious (single-minded) purpose," so he's easily manipulated. Thanos plays him like a pawn, but Loki is completely oblivious that he's being used....*he* thinks he's bargaining with an equal, an "interstellar gangster" (or whatever Hiddie called him). He thought exchanging the Tesseract for the "throne" of Midgard was an equal trade. But Loki would've never viewed himself as a servant of Thanos --- in his mind, *he's* the genius, and Thanos is just a gangsta who wants a shiny magic wish-box.

yeah, that's how I see it. Except, I kinda think Thanos pulled Loki from this void, opposed to Loki stumbling onto him. Other than that, I do agree with you on this

though, the whole "if the tesseract is kept from us, you think you know pain" that whole bit wouldn't that threat sorta of get into your head that, okay, I am being mannipulated

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

yeah, that's how I see it. Except, I kinda think Thanos pulled Loki from this void, opposed to Loki stumbling onto him. Other than that, I do agree with you on this

though, the whole "if the tesseract is kept from us, you think you know pain" that whole bit wouldn't that threat sorta of get into your head that, okay, I am being mannipulated

Yeah, I'm sure that by the end of The Avengers, Loki realized Thanos had been playing him like a violin, and realized that the Tesseract was a far more powerful artifact than he realized.

I'm not sure I'd buy into the whole idea of Thanos pulling Loki from the void, though. That theory presumes that Thanos would actually feel the desire to rescue somebody....anybody. Thanos ain't that kinda guy; he sees some poor schmuck lost in space, he's 99.9999999% more likely to just kill the guy for ****s and giggles instead of trying to help him in any way.

[herolee10]

Anyone else think that IF Thanos is the villain for the upcoming sequel that we may get a flashback sequence of when Loki first arrived in Thanos domain and how they first met?

[Rock Sexton]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

That's kind of the whole point, isn't it? Loki knows nothing of Thanos' power, and he's blinded by "glorious (single-minded) purpose," so he's easily manipulated. Thanos plays him like a pawn, but Loki is completely oblivious that he's being used....*he* thinks he's bargaining with an equal, an "interstellar gangster" (or whatever Hiddie called him). He thought exchanging the Tesseract for the "throne" of Midgard was an equal trade. But Loki would've never viewed himself as a servant of Thanos --- in his mind, *he's* the genius, and Thanos is just a gangsta who wants a shiny magic wish-box.

Very well put.

The very fact that Thanos did not deign to dirty his hands with Loki shows that their relationship was one of quite unequal power, no matter how much bravado Loki tried to show when talking to The Other.

This is too.

I like the addition of bad guys crossing bad guys in these films. Adds a whole new dynamic.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by herolee10

Anyone else think that IF Thanos is the villain for the upcoming sequel that we may get a flashback sequence of when Loki first arrived in Thanos domain and how they first met?

Very possible.

I was even thinking the other day that we *might* even see a cameo by Hiddleston in GOTG showing that flashback. Maybe Loki actually *met* the Guardians in his wanderings/travels/exile, and they're the ones who wittingly or unwittingly pointed him towards Thanos.

[MynAmeIsedDie90]

Roger Wardell ‏@RogerWardell
Inside News: The Masters of Evil will feature in The Avengers 2.

Sorry if this is old news

[J'adore]

Amber Heard for Enchantress!

[I'm Venom]

AnnaLynn McCord would make a great Enchantress.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by I'm Venom

AnnaLynn McCord would make a great Enchantress.

Ugh you guys lol, unless Enchantress and Executioner are in Thor 2, which there seems to be nothing supporting that, then they won't be in the avengers as MoE. It will most likely be an alternate team of characters being introduced, Crossbones, Zemo, Abomination, Maybe Kurse, maybe radioactive man, maybe manderin etc

[I'm Venom]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Ugh you guys lol, unless Enchantress and Executioner are in Thor 2, which there seems to be nothing supporting that, then they won't be in the avengers as MoE. It will most likely be an alternate team of characters being introduced, Crossbones, Zemo, Abomination, Maybe Kurse, maybe radioactive man, maybe manderin etc

I was saying I could see this character as the villain for the next sequel, not Thor 2, but I sure would enjoy seeing Enchantress in Thor 3.

[Chewy]

IF (if if) the Masters of Evil are in the Avengers sequel it won't be a sausagefest featuring Zemo and four meatheads. It'd be a mixture of different personalities and powers. Otherwise there would be no point in doing it.

Crossbones, Abomination, Kurse, Radioactive Man. They're all the same archetype. Boring.

[J'adore]

Okkk chil dawg. I was simply casting Enchantress because she's a part of the Masters of Evil. Doesn't mean I think she is gonna appear.

[Mr. Dent]

Hmm, if the Masters of Evil are in the film (Wardell has been pretty accurate with a lot of stuff, for instance three days before the casting announcements for CA2 were made Wardell posted about them) then I wonder how they would work Thanos in? Perhaps pulling their strings from the background? That would certainly make it more personal as he's using the heroes' actual enemies against them rather than an alien army,

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Chewy

IF (if if) the Masters of Evil are in the Avengers sequel it won't be a sausagefest featuring Zemo and four meatheads. It'd be a mixture of different personalities and powers. Otherwise there would be no point in doing it.

Crossbones, Abomination, Kurse, Radioactive Man. They're all the same archetype. Boring.

where does that come from then?

IF the masters are involved.. it will probably be characters that have been introduced in the MCU. Its pointless to introduce a character IN Avengers 2, just for the sake of it. Each of these characters has a personal relation with their respective hero

[I'm Venom]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

where does that come from then?

IF the masters are involved.. it will probably be characters that have been introduced in the MCU. Its pointless to introduce a character IN Avengers 2, just for the sake of it. Each of these characters has a personal relation with their respective hero

You've missed a second option, which I've seen some rumors to support:

Use Thanos as the villain in Avengers 2, and the Gauntlet is one of many reasons to favor Avengers 2 over Avengers 3.

Yes, it's possible the Masters of Evil could appear in Avengers 2, but you're looking at turing an ensemble film into a double ensemble film. There's a risk of it turning into another Expendables - having to spend so much time developing each character that it turns into a mishmosh. That'll translate to box office problems.

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by I'm Venom

You've missed a second option, which I've seen some rumors to support:

Use Thanos as the villain in Avengers 2, and the Gauntlet is one of many reasons to favor Avengers 2 over Avengers 3.

Yes, it's possible the Masters of Evil could appear in Avengers 2, but you're looking at turing an ensemble film into a double ensemble film. There's a risk of it turning into another Expendables - having to spend so much time developing each character that it turns into a mishmosh. That'll translate to box office problems.

It only works if you treat the group it self as a Character. So you would be telling the story of the group instead of trying to develop each individuality character.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Hmm, if the Masters of Evil are in the film (Wardell has been pretty accurate with a lot of stuff, for instance three days before the casting announcements for CA2 were made Wardell posted about them) then I wonder how they would work Thanos in? Perhaps pulling their strings from the background? That would certainly make it more personal as he's using the heroes' actual enemies against them rather than an alien army,

Why would Thanos even give a rat's ass about the Avengers at this point? So there's a handful of superheroes who defeated Loki and the Chitauri: big effin' deal, as far as Thanos is concerned. Thanos pretty much expected Loki to lose, so that he could maneuver the Tesseract back to Asgard to open a doorway into Odin's Treasury, where *bigger* loot awaits.

Thanos doesn't give a damn about Earth right now, much less any self-appointed guardians of the planet. And even if he *did,* he SURE as hell doesn't need to pit a bunch of rehashed villains against them to defeat them. Thanos can just sneeze and wipe out the Avengers himself in one second....wtf's he need useless underlings for? ESPECIALLY underlings who've already been defeated by at least one Avenger individually?

Again: MOE ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
Again: Thanos has absolutely zero, zilch, nada reason to "pull strings" on the MOE.
Again: RogerWardell is full of ****.

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by xeno000

I never got the impression at all that Loki and Thanos are equals. Loki was putting a brave face on for The Other, but at the end of their meeting he was sent away in with a painful reminder of the horrors to come should he fail Thanos. And fail he did.


The very fact that Thanos did not deign to dirty his hands with Loki shows that their relationship was one of quite unequal power, no matter how much bravado Loki tried to show when talking to The Other. He may have hatched the plan to conquer Earth, but without Thanos he would never even have been able to come here, much less cause mayhem. Yes, The Other called Loki an "ally," but he was treated like a servant, given orders, threatened and not even allowed near his master's feet to plead his own case. Loki was only tolerated because he was of use to Thanos. And he was quite obviously afraid of the consequences of failure.


Consider the terms of the bargain, as well. Loki was given an army to conquer Earth and claim its imaginary throne, but in return he was going to give Thanos an object that would allow the Titan to rule the entire universe. That was the sort of deal only a fool or someone with pathetically limited vision would enter into. Thanos probably trusted that Loki lacked the wit and insight to realize that the Tesseract could give him ultimate power over all reality, not just the Earth. Loki had the mindset of a lackey, of an inferior, so it was safe for Thanos to use him as a pawn in his plans.

To me the relation ship between Loki and Thanos I akin to the relation between Viserys Targaryen and Khal Drogo in Game of Thrones. Loki and Viserys they think them self equals but are not. Loki's station as an heir and former King to the Asgardian throne gets him access to Thanos but Thanos doesn't think of him as an equal. lol Even Hela in Blood Brothers comic didn't even consider Loki as an true equal. I think she said something like "You are wise to show me curicy Loki Lafyson. We may be monarchs both. But with a touch of my hand I can yet render you a subject."

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Why would Thanos even give a rat's ass about the Avengers at this point? So there's a handful of superheroes who defeated Loki and the Chitauri: big effin' deal, as far as Thanos is concerned. Thanos pretty much expected Loki to lose, so that he could maneuver the Tesseract back to Asgard to open a doorway into Odin's Treasury, where *bigger* loot awaits.

Thanos doesn't give a damn about Earth right now, much less any self-appointed guardians of the planet. And even if he *did,* he SURE as hell doesn't need to pit a bunch of rehashed villains against them to defeat them. Thanos can just sneeze and wipe out the Avengers himself in one second....wtf's he need useless underlings for? ESPECIALLY underlings who've already been defeated by at least one Avenger individually?

Again: MOE ain't gonna happen anytime soon.
Again: Thanos has absolutely zero, zilch, nada reason to "pull strings" on the MOE.
Again: RogerWardell is full of ****.

I disagree with you. Which fine.

There is nothing that proves that he is full of ****, other than your opinion, and you not wanting it to go in that direction. Hasn't marvel jumped all over the false rumors? He's been right about everything so far.
And again, this isn't 616, its the mcu. apparently, if they decide they want thanos to pull strings for the moe, then they will do it.

they are the ones making the movies. Roger is the "insider" who has posted these rumors. Until one of his rumors proves to be false, and it is confirmed that he is ********ting us and trolling the whole marvel fanbase, then based on his past rumors being true, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt and there is nothing wrong with doing so.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

where does that come from then?

IF the masters are involved.. it will probably be characters that have been introduced in the MCU. Its pointless to introduce a character IN Avengers 2, just for the sake of it. Each of these characters has a personal relation with their respective hero

It wouldn't be "just for the sake of it". It would be for the sake of a stronger film. A group of villains that all have similar personalities and powers and are essentially the same stock character x4 with little tweaks is terrible. It's a terrible idea, it's a terrible ensemble, and it makes for boring tedium.

What could make the Masters idea work is the same thing that made the Avengers idea work- different personalities, different powers, unique characters. Not "this guy's just a little bit dumber than this other one, this other guy's marginally stronger than this guy." You need one guy who is the "mastermind" of the group but there need to be differing personalities amongst the other members for people to give a crap while the Avengers are off-screen.

Baron Zemo and his four strong, dumb thugs is not the Masters of Evil I want to see.

[Malcolm Belmont]

I am 100% sure we will see Crossbones as one of The Masters of Evil

[I'm Venom]

I'd love to see Abomination return, but it's safe to say that if he were to appear in the Avengers, it would be as a member of a group.