Fantastic Four reborn! - Part 5

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Originally Posted by Dr Tactics

I've been asking that same question for... Which is why this reboot and the supposed shared universe with FF and the X-Men is completely ridiculous and so typical Fox

What constitutes a flop?

The first order business is to make a great FF film. Fox will want to rebuild the franchise like they are with X-Men. The first film will be a stepping stone to greater things (potentially).

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

Can Fox afford to use the Mole Man though, while leaving Doom for the sequel? If the first reboot is not successful enough, they'll not even get to Doom. It's a different matter for Marvel to do that. But for Fox to do that now, and to release it in 2015 when there's The Avengers, Star Wars Ep 7 and Justice League, that just isn't keeping up with the big leagues. They have to up their game otherwise they'll have another flop on their hands. What's the point of making an FF movie just to be a flop? Might as well give it back to Marvel.

If Sony used this logic, we would have gotten Green Goblin in TAS, rather than the Lizard, and it would have been an even bigger waste of time. If Fox does FF/Doom again - that may be the kiss of death for this series with them. It will be bad enough if we have to sit through a complete origin again, but if we get Doom too - sheesh....!

[Project862006]

^lizard is a pretty popular villian tho f4 doesn't have spidey's rouge's gallery

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by YoungPrime

My money is on them giving us someone uninteresting like Moleman or The Puppet Master. Then Showing the main villain in the final scene or closing credits ala Avengers, Amazing Spider-man, Green Lantern or Batman Begins.

But if they were really serious they'd give us FF vs the Frightful Four with Doom as a cliffhanger.

If they go with the Frightful Four, they will need to have a better lineup then in the comics. Trapster doesn't work as serious villain in the comcis, so having him be a member of the Frightful Four will not work on the Silver screen. Having a guy try to defeat the FF with a glue gun will not work, the audience would just be laughing at it. Wizard will need a revamp before he is ready for the big screen, for the most part is he a 4th rate Dr. Doom clone, with less pathos, less interesting motives, is more one dimensional and is less menacing. You can't build up Dr. Doom by having a Doom wannabe be the main villain of the first film.

Also if Mole Man or Puppet Master are the villains, they have to be compelling, they can't just be place holders for Doom, this movie has to be good its own right, not just be set up for a better movie down the road.

Originally Posted by bubbadoom

If Sony used this logic, we would have gotten Green Goblin in TAS, rather than the Lizard, and it would have been an even bigger waste of time. If Fox does FF/Doom again - that may be the kiss of death for this series with them. It will be bad enough if we have to sit through a complete origin again, but if we get Doom too - sheesh....!

Lizard has more pathos then Mole Man and Puppet Master, he is just a better written character. I feel more sorry for Lizard then I do for Mole Man or Puppet Master. In the 616 universe, Mole Man's bitterness about humanity is not that interesting, he just comes off as whiny little fat guy who is tries to get women way out of his league and is mad when they don't return his advances. At this point, I think Mole Man can solve his problems by using computer dating and lowering his standards, that makes more sense then living with monsters underground. Also Puppet Master's step daughter is far more interesting then he is, his step daughter is interesting, but there is nothing interesting Puppet Master himself, he is just a generic villain who is evil for very poorly defined reasons.

Frankly after you get past Dr. Doom and Galactus, the FF's rogues gallery gets kinda of lame. Annhilius and Mad Thinker are kinda interesting, what is mainly because they were put to better use in other comics then the FF comic. After that, the pickings get real slim. Red Ghost is a one dimensional, outdated, cartoonist political stereotype, Wizard has been a poor man's Dr. Doom for most of his career (recent unexplained mental breakdown, not withstanding), Mole Man is more of a gimmick then a character and his motive seems to go back and fourth between wanting to protect his kingdom and wanting to punish humanity for not well defined reasons. FF writers have been coasting on Doom and trying to just recreate old Silver age stories for so long, they haven't given the FF's rogues gallery the revamp it has needed for a while.

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

Can Fox afford to use the Mole Man though, while leaving Doom for the sequel? If the first reboot is not successful enough, they'll not even get to Doom. It's a different matter for Marvel to do that. But for Fox to do that now, and to release it in 2015 when there's The Avengers, Star Wars Ep 7 and Justice League, that just isn't keeping up with the big leagues. They have to up their game otherwise they'll have another flop on their hands. What's the point of making an FF movie just to be a flop? Might as well give it back to Marvel.

Its a bit naive to assume that if Fox makes a rebooted FF movie, that they will not trying their hardest to make a series sequels come out of that first movie? If they are putting the effort into a rebooted FF movie, why would want be planning for a franchise? If they were not, they would just sold it back to Marvel or let the rights lapse.

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by bubbadoom

If Sony used this logic, we would have gotten Green Goblin in TAS, rather than the Lizard, and it would have been an even bigger waste of time. If Fox does FF/Doom again - that may be the kiss of death for this series with them. It will be bad enough if we have to sit through a complete origin again, but if we get Doom too - sheesh....!

The difference between Sony and Fox is that the original Spider-Man trilogy was a successful series of films. It could've continued potentially instead of being rebooted, but they chose to go that way. With FF, those films weren't successful and generally not well received. Sony could afford to use Lizard with TAS. Besides, Spider-Man is far more popular than FF and could get people in seats on name alone.

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by SoNicRaDiATioN

What constitutes a flop?

The official definition is "The term box office bomb or flop generally refers to a film that is viewed as highly unsuccessful or unprofitable during its theatrical run, sometimes preceding hype regarding its production, cost or marketing efforts. To earn this distinction, the film must also fail to earn more than the reported cost of its production, distribution and marketing by a wide margin."

The first order business is to make a great FF film. Fox will want to rebuild the franchise like they are with X-Men. The first film will be a stepping stone to greater things (potentially).

I'll address this quote with another quote..

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

The difference between Sony and Fox is that the original Spider-Man trilogy was a successful series of films. It could've continued potentially instead of being rebooted, but they chose to go that way. With FF, those films weren't successful and generally not well received. Sony could afford to use Lizard with TAS. Besides, Spider-Man is far more popular than FF and could get people in seats on name alone.

Why do we not understand that the the FF franchise that Fox and Tim Story put forth is only worthy to be flushed down a toilet? And rebuilding from that is so difficult. At least X-Men had successful films that XM-FC didn't suffer as much. FF has 0 successful films

and another quote..

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Frankly after you get past Dr. Doom and Galactus, the FF's rogues gallery gets kinda of lame. Annhilius and Mad Thinker are kinda interesting, what is mainly because they were put to better use in other comics then the FF comic. After that, the pickings get real slim. Red Ghost is a one dimensional, outdated, cartoonist political stereotype, Wizard has been a poor man's Dr. Doom for most of his career (recent unexplained mental breakdown, not withstanding), Mole Man is more of a gimmick then a character and his motive seems to go back and fourth between wanting to protect his kingdom and wanting to punish humanity for not well defined reasons. FF writers have been coasting on Doom and trying to just recreate old Silver age stories for so long, they haven't given the FF's rogues gallery the revamp it has needed for a while.

So what franchise is Fox building with the FF? The more interesting villains belong to the X-Men in comparison. In fact IMO TA:EMH Television show made better use of FF's rogue gallery then Fox ever could.

so until this happens

there will be some losses on all sides. But some will have larger losses than others. though I admit that last part of my comment is so fanboy extreme (lol) but the fact remains the future of the FF would serve Fox better if they did a Robopocalypse type deal with Marvel Studios then go at it alone whether the Foxes want to see it or not

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by bubbadoom

If Sony used this logic, we would have gotten Green Goblin in TAS, rather than the Lizard, and it would have been an even bigger waste of time. If Fox does FF/Doom again - that may be the kiss of death for this series with them. It will be bad enough if we have to sit through a complete origin again, but if we get Doom too - sheesh....!

To be fair....... Spider-man's popularity level being much higher than the fantastic four, coupled with 2 out of 3 good movies.... Gave it much more wiggle room to do that. Fantastic four doesnt really have that luxury imo

[Project862006]

aren't f4 best stories with doom and galactus tho ? like Rising Storm,The Coming of Galactus,Unthinkable,The Power and the Peril!,etc.

F4 has lasted this long with these 2 villains and have as such a rich mythology with them that it can work

hell X1-3,origins all had magneto and stryker as the villains and it didn't get derivative and people still love magneto on screen

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

aren't f4 best stories with doom and galactus tho ? like Rising Storm,The Coming of Galactus,Unthinkable,The Power and the Peril!,etc.

So while ASM is a reboot. The FF reboot is more of a "Do Over" I SMH that you think this screams successful future franchise

F4 has lasted this long with these 2 villains and have as such a rich mythology with them that it can work

hell X1-3,origins all had magneto and stryker as the villains and it didn't get derivative and people still love magneto on screen

But that is the knock on the X-franchise that with all their rich cast of villains that they only do Magneto. Thats nothing to brag about and I think it's held them back from being a regularly successful franchise..

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by Dr Tactics

The official definition is "The term box office bomb or flop generally refers to a film that is viewed as highly unsuccessful or unprofitable during its theatrical run, sometimes preceding hype regarding its production, cost or marketing efforts. To earn this distinction, the film must also fail to earn more than the reported cost of its production, distribution and marketing by a wide margin."



I'll address this quote with another quote..



Why do we not understand that the the FF franchise that Fox and Tim Story put forth is only worthy to be flushed down a toilet? And rebuilding from that is so difficult. At least X-Men had successful films that XM-FC didn't suffer as much. FF has 0 successful films

and another quote..



So what franchise is Fox building with the FF? The more interesting villains belong to the X-Men in comparison. In fact IMO TA:EMH Television show made better use of FF's rogue gallery then Fox ever could.

so until this happens

there will be some losses on all sides. But some will have larger losses than others. though I admit that last part of my comment is so fanboy extreme (lol) but the fact remains the future of the FF would serve Fox better if they did a Robopocalypse type deal with Marvel Studios then go at it alone whether the Foxes want to see it or not

What kind of deal was made with who, and what did it involve?

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

What kind of deal was made with who, and what did it involve?

They did a co-finance on production and Touchstone/Disney would release it in the US and Fox handles the WW distribution.

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by Dr Tactics

They did a co-finance on production and Touchstone/Disney would release it in the US and Fox handles the WW distribution.

Why did they decide to do that? Although with that, there are no rights to lose and no already existing franchise to fight over, so it would be easier in that case than FF.

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Dark Raven

Why did they decide to do that? Although with that, there are no rights to lose and no already existing franchise to fight over, so it would be easier in that case than FF.

But thats the beauty of it. Fox wont lose the rights due to possible production delays and keep a stake in the franchise but doesn't risk the BO losses impending by not being able to utilize the tail-wind that is behind the Marvel Franchise to offset the FF franchise past failures. Marvel get to utilize characters previously not available characters and can gain more of a profit off of the FF then the measley 10%..


Plus Fox may be able to release it in 2016 which would be better overall then trying to fit when A2, JL,Star Wars in the summer and Ant-Man,Avatar 2 and Hungergames the rest of that year

[Project862006]

neither fox or marvel are in the business of sharing

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

neither fox or marvel are in the business of sharing

Unless you read the posts you can stay out of this. Fox is sharing with Disney next year April 2014.. Think like a business not like a "Negative Nelly"

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

neither fox or marvel are in the business of sharing

On second thought maybe your right.. Let Fox lose the rights and or their money cause they're forced to release in 2015 or they go so last minute that they lose the rights anyway. Marvel would be able still be successful without the FF or its villains. Funny thing is some of the best stories also included Namor and Black Panther and Fox doesn't have the rights to them either with really begs the question. Is it automatic that they have to rights to Mad Thinker, Puppetmaster, The Wizard? Or did they, Marvel, just give them rights to certain characters in 94 deal?

X-Men got over on the contract language that all (or Most) Mutants belong to the X-Men franchise

Think about that

[Project862006]

again why are you talking about marvel studios getting rights back

you constantly derail this thread

how about you talk about the reboot

costumes
interpretations of the mythology and it's characters
storylines
josh trank directing
take on the material you would like to see
technology you want to see in the reboot
etc.

but no you keep talking about marvel studios

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

again why are you talking about marvel studios getting rights back

you constantly derail this thread

how about you talk about the reboot

costumes
interpretations of the mythology and it's characters
storylines
josh trank directing
take on the material you would like to see
technology you want to see in the reboot
etc.

but no you keep talking about marvel studios

But this is the biggest pressing issue for the FF Reboot so I say this thread has not been derailed.. If you notice the FF doesn't even have its own section just like Daredevil never did because of what we speak of. The possibility that this doesn't get made..

How about you stop evading the issues..

[Project862006]

what issue lol many posters here believe it or not actually want to see this reboot and want to have actual discussion on the reboot and not have marvel fanboys saying this movie is crap it will flop and fox is evil every 2 posts

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

what issue lol many posters here believe it or not actually want to see this reboot and want to have actual discussion on the reboot and not have marvel fanboys saying this movie is crap it will flop and fox is evil every 2 posts

Did I ever say I didn't want to see the reboot?? The title of the thread is not "Fox's Fantastic Four Reborn" so while I'd/we'd like to see the reboot we'd like the reboot partially or totally out of Fox's hands

And Fox is evil. Face it

[Project862006]

Originally Posted by Dr Tactics

Did I ever say I didn't want to see the reboot?? The title of the thread is not "Fox's Fantastic Four Reborn" so while I'd/we'd like to see the reboot we'd like the reboot partially or totally out of Fox's hands

And Fox is evil. Face it

^you sure as hell dont act like you do you havent said 1 positive thing about it and haven't actually discussed the reboot

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by Project862006

^you sure as hell dont act like you do you havent said 1 positive thing about it and haven't actually discussed the reboot

Well for the record I really want to see this reboot happen and I want it to be a BO success but out of Fox's shared universe.

I want this "Do Over" to be done well and also does well in the BO because if not then this reboot will be a one off and we'll have to wait another 7 years or longer for a sequel or another reboot. I'm not getting any younger.

[C. Lee]

Since FOX is planning a reboot of the FF....let's keep the talk in here on that.

If you want to discuss how Marvel could handle the franchise, please make another thread for it.

[Dr Tactics]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Since FOX is planning a reboot of the FF....let's keep the talk in here on that.

If you want to discuss how Marvel could handle the franchise, please make another thread for it.

You do realize at the very beginning 5 parts ago that the rights issue discussion was at hand (I looked). So, not to question authority, Why do those supporting some type of rights reverting or rights sharing have to start a new thread? Because somebody gets bent out of shape? IMO, I think they should start their own Fox thread if they wish to not deal with the possibilities and/or support of a more studios shared Marvel Universe..

I'll let it go but I'm just asking

[C. Lee]

This thread (from the beginning) has been about a rebooting of the FF....the FF is being rebooted....it is being rebooted by FOX....so this thread will be about the rebooting of the FF by FOX.