In hindsight what changes would you do

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ra's in Begins: 'My fate lies with the rest of Gotham'

Ra's was on a suicide mission.

Ra's was, yes, by getting on that train by himself and destroying the train when running straight into Gotham Tower, but the League as a whole weren't on a suicide mission. They were to make sure Gotham builds itself back up to start all over and so too the LoS would start over, but the entire League were never as suicidal as shown in TDKR; in BB, it was only the leader. In TDKR, we see members sacrificing themselves, we see Talia planning on sacrificing herself.

Talia's plan, Talia's personal vendetta cos it was her pappy who was killed. Now what kinda guy is willing to get his ass turned to ashes like that for a guy who hated him and booted him out, unless he is doing it all for the gal he loved.

Or, unless he wants to accomplish something the famed Ra's al Ghul couldn't achieve. Yup, I'll choose door number two since I never viewed Bane as a lovesick puppy.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Ra's was, yes, by getting on that train by himself and destroying the train when running straight into Gotham Tower, but the League as a whole weren't on a suicide mission. They were to make sure Gotham builds itself back up to start all over and so too the LoS would start over, but the entire League were never as suicidal as shown in TDKR; in BB, it was only the leader. In TDKR, we see members sacrificing themselves, we see Talia planning on sacrificing herself.

Ehhh no the LOS never makes sure the Gotham or any place they destroy builds itself up again. They go in, the destroy, they move on and leave things to it. Where did ya ever hear Ra's say they make sure the places they destroy fix themselves up after?

Ra's was the leader of the LOS and he was gonna kill himself. If the leader was suicidal for the cause then so were the men.

Or, unless he wants to accomplish something the famed Ra's al Ghul couldn't achieve.

Weakest motive yet.

Yup, I'll choose door number two since I never viewed Bane as a lovesick puppy.

Truth can be harsh sometimes. I get ya don't want to see it that way. It sucks I know, but ya can't sugar coat things for what they are.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ehhh no the LOS never makes sure the Gotham or any place they destroy builds itself up again. They go in, the destroy, they move on and leave things to it. Where did ya ever hear Ra's say they make sure the places they destroy fix themselves up after?

Ra's was the leader of the LOS and he was gonna kill himself. If the leader was suicidal for the cause then so were the men.

You're not really getting into details, are you? Lol. I stated that the rest of the League didn't sacrifice themselves and you're going into detail on what I said without continuing the topic of me saying the rest of the League didn't go on a suicide mission? When nothing suggests the entire LoS was on a suicide mission doesn't mean you get to grasp at straws with that the League won't try to continue on and just die with Ra's al Ghul.

Weakest motive yet.

While you think it's a weak motive, it's fine. Like I said...all we're doing is throwing mud at each other since we're never going to actually change the mind of one another.

Truth can be harsh sometimes. I get ya don't want to see it that way. It sucks I know, but ya can't sugar coat things for what they are.

Well, I should take your word for it...I mean, even you don't want to see that TDKR is indeed a great film

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

I took Bane's dedication to the mission as him trying to prove that he was the superior man to Ra's. PM me for more if you'd like me to go into some more depth.

I was wondering...what if Folley and Blake were merged into the same character? A good cop who isn't necessarily pro-Batman, but comes to see Batman as a necessity thus leading to the continuation of the Batman in Gotham.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

I took Bane's dedication to the mission as him trying to prove that he was the superior man to Ra's.

Agreed!

I was wondering...what if Folley and Blake were merged into the same character? A good cop who isn't necessarily pro-Batman, but comes to see Batman as a necessity thus leading to the continuation of the Batman in Gotham.

I guess they could be merged into one character, but I don't think the ending would have worked if Blake was given to the keys to the Batcave. Isn't pro-Batman and then turns all around and takes the mantle of the Batman at the very end. Something had to be much different if Blake and Foley were indeed merged into one character.

[Robin91939]

Put Oswald Cobblepot in the role of Lau.


Make him from another European country that does like to extradite with the U.S.

Other than that....

Give Catwoman the cowl from the recent comics...

Maybe add some more familiar GCPD officers...

Have the secretary at the end of The Dark Knight Rises say:

BLAKE
Here. Try my legal name.

RECEPTIONIST
Oh here it is. Have a wonderful day, Mr. Grayson.

Blake smiles, nods and exits.


Other than these small changes -- I really love this trilogy as is. Sure there are things that could be done more to my liking... But in the world of this trilogy, it all works. Bane can have the mask from the comics in the next series. Robin can appear in the next series... But this world, these characters... Were all very well done.

-R

[Deserana]

Originally Posted by Robin91939

Other than these small changes -- I really love this trilogy as is. Sure there are things that could be done more to my liking... But in the world of this trilogy, it all works. Bane can have the mask from the comics in the next series. Robin can appear in the next series... But this world, these characters... Were all very well done.

100% agree. There isn't a character in this trilogy that I feel is weak. Even Talia has more than enough backstory for me when you consider that Bane's pit story is actually Talia's and so-on. Marion herself was in it as much as she could be in a story so jam packed I just think the WAY she was used in the final battle was weak not the character herself.

In order I'd put my favourite characters as -
1. Bruce
2. Gordon
3. Dent
4. Blake (Really love this character)
5. Bane
6. The Joker
7. Rachel
8. Ra's

But they are all close together and that list was knocked up pretty quickly. I'd say Rachel may even be above the villains for the effect she has on Bruce.

I also don't see how Bane doing what he does to prove he is better than Ra's is a weak motive at all...

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

I took Bane's dedication to the mission as him trying to prove that he was the superior man to Ra's.

Not only that, but Ras did, in fact, save Bane's life. Talia persuaded him to return to the pit to save the man who saved her, sure, but it's not like Ras had to do it.

[the last son]

should have made freeze the villain and played of the freeze lost wife bruce lost rachel angle. would have been 10x better a movie. should have let me write it too

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ra's in Begins: 'My fate lies with the rest of Gotham'

Ra's was on a suicide mission.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm about 99% sure that line is actually "My fight, however,lies with the rest of the Gotham."

[Llama_Shepherd]

Batman Begins-

Keep it very ambiguous when R'as talks to Bruce about his "immortality".

Bruce would make "the vow" before leaving.

Develop Scarecrow's character more, and what drives his obsession with fear.

Bruce would fight Zsasz in the Narrows.

The Dark Knight-

Set a few years after Batman Begins

Scarecrow would appear as he does at the end of Batman Begins. Is chased by Batman for kidnapping, rather than drug dealing.

Chechen replaced with Penguin, or Oswald Cobblepot.

Lau would be named Kuttler and mobsters would call him their "calculator".

Babs would replace Gordon's son.

Miranda would be included.

Rachel would be pregnant with Harvey's child, Bruce wouldn't know, it would be included with the letter. (I'm on the fence with this, because it lessens the impact of the "Then how come it was me who was the only one that lost everything?" "It wasn't."- exchange).

The Dark Knight Rises-

Batman would not have been absent for 8 years. He would have attempted to continue with his role for around 18 months, but is injured to frequently, and as such, Batman has not been seen for a year.

Bruce has only been absent for 6 months. His use of Michael is not needed.

Many cops would trust Batman, having seen the extents he goes to in order to not kill in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, specifically in the Prewitt building scene.

Joker would appear.

Bruce's experience in the Pit would mirror that of the citizens of Gotham. Bane would poison both with false hope; Bruce- with the apparent ease of escaping an open prison, the Gothamites- with the apparent freedoms granted by Bane's rule. The poisoning would come from Bruce's hope dying every time he fails to escape, the Gothamites hopes would die as Bane unleashes terror upon them (his own rule, Joker, Scarecrow mobsters etc).

R'as doesn't fade in the Pit, we see him walk of screen.

Bomb would be removed as the catalyst for the plan, only brought in at the end through desperation.

John Blake's real name would be Richard Robin Grayson or Robin Richard Grayson. He would at some point have worn a jumper that sort of looks like the stylised Nightwing symbol. Also, in the scene where he rescues the cops with Batman, he'd have stolen swat gear and look like Nightwing.

Bruce would go to his parents grave before his showdown with Bane.

Bruce would not have faked his death. I think it is better to show he has truly overcome his grief by showing he faces it.

Bruce would present when Robin finds the Cave.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Deserana

100% agree. There isn't a character in this trilogy that I feel is weak. Even Talia has more than enough backstory for me when you consider that Bane's pit story is actually Talia's and so-on. Marion herself was in it as much as she could be in a story so jam packed I just think the WAY she was used in the final battle was weak not the character herself.

In order I'd put my favourite characters as -
1. Bruce
2. Gordon
3. Dent
4. Blake (Really love this character)
5. Bane
6. The Joker
7. Rachel
8. Ra's

But they are all close together and that list was knocked up pretty quickly. I'd say Rachel may even be above the villains for the effect she has on Bruce.

I also don't see how Bane doing what he does to prove he is better than Ra's is a weak motive at all...

No Selina among your favorite characters?

[ThePhantasm]

Bane never seemed to me like he was just Talia's love-sick lackey. Of course he would be the one to stay behind and guard Batman while Talia ensured that the bomb would explode. Batman could easily take down Talia if she were to be the one to stay behind.

Bane showed little regard for following Talia's orders and throughout the film seemed more like a protective father figure than a starstruck lover. He's much older than Talia, helps her escape after her mother is killed, and then continues to look after her later. Ra's feels jealousy because HE is Talia's father but she shows her affection to Bane, the man who took care of her and saved her. So Bane is driven to be a better leader of the League of Shadows than Ra's ever was, and Talia is driven to avenge her blood relative's death.

At no point does it appear that Talia is giving orders, as she is largely undercover for extended periods of time. Meanwhile, the entire league follows Bane's orders with palpable fear and unquestioning loyalty. Talia never got an extended finale because she wasn't the main villain of the film. In the end she was just the twist reveal and the driver of the bomb car. That's a disappointing use of a comic character but it doesn't make Bane just a goon.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by the last son

should have made freeze the villain and played of the freeze lost wife bruce lost rachel angle. would have been 10x better a movie. should have let me write it too

At least Batman & Robin would've been better than one Batman film

[Deserana]

Originally Posted by The Joker

No Selina among your favorite characters?

I was sat thinking "I swear I've misse out someone" I'd put her pretty low down though. I love Hathaway's Catwoman but the effect she has on anything is pretty low. I mean she really only has interaction with Bruce in this film.

That is another change I'd make actually. I'd have more characters interact with eachother. Bane and Talia are a partnership yet you never here a conversation between them. Selina owes a debt to Bane (probably not the right word to use but she does need to find a way to stop them trying to kill her) but they never interact. Blake probably does the most interacting. I'd love to have seen more people talk to Bane, Gordon in particular and the sewer was a great oppurtunity for that.

A Bruce/Bane conversation was also really missed you had the odd mumble from Bruce in the sewer fight and the pit talk was hardly a conversation more Bane talking at Bruce. A scene with Fox/Alfred and Gordon would have been great (purely just to see Oldman and Freeman or Caine in the same scene ). Also for some reason I would have loved another scene with Blake and Selina that was more playful I think I would have preffered it if Selina was the one to save Blake from Bane's army then to just have a light flirty scene between the two then have Batman come in.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You're not really getting into details, are you?

How many more details do ya need?

Lol. I stated that the rest of the League didn't sacrifice themselves and you're going into detail on what I said without continuing the topic of me saying the rest of the League didn't go on a suicide mission? When nothing suggests the entire LoS was on a suicide mission doesn't mean you get to grasp at straws with that the League won't try to continue on and just die with Ra's al Ghul.

Ehhh no if Ra's was willing to die on that train for his cause then so were all of the LOS. It shows they were dedicated to their cause. Ra's smashed up the brakes and all after bats came on board and tried to stop the train.

While you think it's a weak motive, it's fine. Like I said...all we're doing is throwing mud at each other since we're never going to actually change the mind of one another.

I ain't trying to change your mind mon ami. If ya think Bane's motive was just to be better than Ra's when ya compare that to the motives of Ra's and Joker, ya see how crap it is.

Well, I should take your word for it...I mean, even you don't want to see that TDKR is indeed a great film

Well only a foolish person would see something they don't believe.

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Bane never seemed to me like he was just Talia's love-sick lackey. Of course he would be the one to stay behind and guard Batman while Talia ensured that the bomb would explode. Batman could easily take down Talia if she were to be the one to stay behind.

Yup it's very hard to keep a guy hostage when he's been stabbed, tied up, and ya have a gun on him.

Bane showed little regard for following Talia's orders and throughout the film

Oh yeah where did ya see that then?

At no point does it appear that Talia is giving orders, as she is largely undercover for extended periods of time. Meanwhile, the entire league follows Bane's orders with palpable fear and unquestioning loyalty. Talia never got an extended finale because she wasn't the main villain of the film. In the end she was just the twist reveal and the driver of the bomb car. That's a disappointing use of a comic character but it doesn't make Bane just a goon.

Ya mean like in Begins where the LOS don't seem to be following Ducard's orders until ya find out he's the boss man?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Deserana

I was sat thinking "I swear I've misse out someone" I'd put her pretty low down though. I love Hathaway's Catwoman but the effect she has on anything is pretty low. I mean she really only has interaction with Bruce in this film.

That is another change I'd make actually. I'd have more characters interact with eachother. Bane and Talia are a partnership yet you never here a conversation between them. Selina owes a debt to Bane (probably not the right word to use but she does need to find a way to stop them trying to kill her) but they never interact. Blake probably does the most interacting. I'd love to have seen more people talk to Bane, Gordon in particular and the sewer was a great oppurtunity for that.

A Bruce/Bane conversation was also really missed you had the odd mumble from Bruce in the sewer fight and the pit talk was hardly a conversation more Bane talking at Bruce. A scene with Fox/Alfred and Gordon would have been great (purely just to see Oldman and Freeman or Caine in the same scene ). Also for some reason I would have loved another scene with Blake and Selina that was more playful I think I would have preffered it if Selina was the one to save Blake from Bane's army then to just have a light flirty scene between the two then have Batman come in.

I myself liked the idea of Bane and Talia never conversating until Talia's reveal because it kept up with the mystery. If I wanted any conversation added to TDKR, it would've been Bane and Selina which I felt was a chance that missed out because I would've loved to see how those two spoke to eachother if Selina was indeed fearful over Bane.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ehhh no if Ra's was willing to die on that train for his cause then so were all of the LOS. It shows they were dedicated to their cause. Ra's smashed up the brakes and all after bats came on board and tried to stop the train.

Only an assumption. Saying the LoS would sacrifice themselves if Ra's did brings up the question of how in the world the LoS could have survived for centuries if they'd always sacrifice themselves even if the leader does.

I ain't trying to change your mind mon ami. If ya think Bane's motive was just to be better than Ra's when ya compare that to the motives of Ra's and Joker, ya see how crap it is.

Being better than the man who banished you. I don't see how it's a weak motive. It's a motive to prove that they're better.

Well only a foolish person would see something they don't believe.

Not believing TDKR is indeed great; yah, I see what you mean

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yup it's very hard to keep a guy hostage when he's been stabbed, tied up, and ya have a gun on him.

Come on, now. The point is that you don't take chances. Bruce was broken, escaped from a pit that no one ever expected him to escape from, and led a revolt against Bane in Gotham city. Of course Bane should be the one to guard him and ensure he doesn't meddle in their plans further.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Oh yeah where did ya see that then?

"We both know I'm going to kill you now. You'll just have to imagine the fire!"

"Keep her [Talia] close. He'll come for her." (what! Bane giving orders to the LOS while Talia is around?)

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ya mean like in Begins where the LOS don't seem to be following Ducard's orders until ya find out he's the boss man?

It seems pretty clear in Begins that Ducard is in control the whole time. The fake Ra's doesn't do much, doesn't train Bruce, and is never treated as if he is the leader by any other member of the League.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Come on, now. The point is that you don't take chances. Bruce was broken, escaped from a pit that no one ever expected him to escape from, and led a revolt against Bane in Gotham city. Of course Bane should be the one to guard him and ensure he doesn't meddle in their plans further.

Batman just whupped Bane's butt and broke his mask. How is Bane a better guy for the job? He knew he was whupped that's why he was gonna shoot Batman while he was tied up like the big coward he was.

There was only minutes to go before the bomb went off. Risk was minimal. Bats was a goner. It was Selina that saved his bacon.

"We both know I'm going to kill you now. You'll just have to imagine the fire!"

Ehhh yeah they had minutes left to die. Talia had just said bye bye to him. He had no risk of being caught disobeying her since they were both gonna be ashes in a few minutes.

"Keep her [Talia] close. He'll come for her." (what! Bane giving orders to the LOS while Talia is around?)

Telling his men to keep an eye on Talia. Big whoop. I ain't saying Bane had no authority with the men. Duh obviously he did. He just was not the head boss man. That was Talia.

It seems pretty clear in Begins that Ducard is in control the whole time. The fake Ra's doesn't do much, doesn't train Bruce, and is never treated as if he is the leader by any other member of the League.

He has two scenes, he is named as Ra's Al Ghul, he tells Bruce he is now a member of the LOS, he tells Bruc he has to go to Gotham and destroy it. It was the same principle but with less screen time. One guy appears to be in charge but he ain't.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Batman just whupped Bane's butt and broke his mask. How is Bane a better guy for the job?

Simple. Bane is still the most powerful non-Batman person in the room. You don't go "oh, well Batman broke the powerful guy's mask, so lets have some weaker people watch Batman now." Its a simple practical decision.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

He knew he was whupped that's why he was gonna shoot Batman while he was tied up like the big coward he was.

His motivation isn't really relevant here.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

There was only minutes to go before the bomb went off. Risk was minimal.

Risk was minimal, but somehow Batman still saved Gotham. Like I said, Batman had already overcome every obstacle they put in his path, including disrupting the bomb's signal. Of course they weren't going to take any chances, regardless of how soon the bomb would go off.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Bats was a goner. It was Selina that saved his bacon.

I agree that an immobilized and stabbed Batman would have been unable to stop a recovered Bane. That actually only serves to prove my argument is correct.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Ehhh yeah they had minutes left to die. Talia had just said bye bye to him. He had no risk of being caught disobeying her since they were both gonna be ashes in a few minutes.

True. But this is the only instance ever of Talia telling Bane to do something in the film. Ever, as far as we know. And Bane disregards it, despite his supposed "puppydog love" for Talia. So what does that tell us about Bane? What do we know about him, given the limited knowledge at our disposal?

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Telling his men to keep an eye on Talia. Big whoop. I ain't saying Bane had no authority with the men. Duh obviously he did. He just was not the head boss man. That was Talia.

There is absolutely no evidence in the film that Talia was the leader. None. The only reason people think that is because of one interaction between her and Bane. Your statement here is pure conjecture and not suggested by anything in the film (which actually suggests that Bane is the leader, IMO, as he is frequently shown giving orders).

Originally Posted by Fudgie

He has two scenes, he is named as Ra's Al Ghul, he tells Bruce he is now a member of the LOS, he tells Bruc he has to go to Gotham and destroy it. It was the same principle but with less screen time. One guy appears to be in charge but he ain't.

I don't see how it is the same principle at all. I think you are greatly stretching the parallel.

[Deserana]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I myself liked the idea of Bane and Talia never conversating until Talia's reveal because it kept up with the mystery.

I'm fine with that to but they never conversed... it was just Talia talking. Bane didn't utter a single word during the Talia reveal until she left. Granted Hardy did a great job physically but actual interchange between the two I felt was missing.

If I wanted any conversation added to TDKR, it would've been Bane and Selina which I felt was a chance that missed out because I would've loved to see how those two spoke to eachother if Selina was indeed fearful over Bane.

This is a conversation I would have loved and it could easily have happened during any of the sewer scenes or when Gotham was occupied. I got the impression that Bane didn't even know Selina existed.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Deserana

I'm fine with that to but they never conversed... it was just Talia talking. Bane didn't utter a single word during the Talia reveal until she left. Granted Hardy did a great job physically but actual interchange between the two I felt was missing.

Bane was full of rage from his mask being broken and emotion from Talia's speech that I doubt he could really utter anything to her until after she left. I think that one tear spoke enough from Bane's point of view, imo.

This is a conversation I would have loved and it could easily have happened during any of the sewer scenes or when Gotham was occupied. I got the impression that Bane didn't even know Selina existed.

It definitely did feel like Bane didn't even know Selina existed, but he had to; it just wasn't shown with no conversation between the two. I was actually hoping for something between the two in the sewers, but nothing. Which sucks, because if Bane was meant to be some mirror image of Batman, I would've liked to see at least Selina talk to him since both Selina and Miranda/Talia spoke to Bruce throughout the film.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yup but they did it much better, and they did it after Bane had established himself as a self made man and made a play for Gotham and broken Batman. Bane is this was a love sick puppy following Talia's wishes. He began and ended with the LOS.

Eh, I read Knightfall and KnightsEnd. The latter was better because Bane is a very, very boring character and his plan is very generic. In fact, Batman pretty much figures it out like 3 issues in (out of 12? 15?) and still gets played like a chump. It also doesn't help that Bane's personality isn't developed much beyond that of a generic pro-wrestler (hence his appearance). The impact it had on Bruce is astounding and earns Bane a top villain status, but Nolan found a way for it to happen in a much more interesting and entertaining way. Also, he made Bane a lot more interesting and developed as a character.

I see your point, but I do not think Bane being part of the LOS dilutes the character. Talia being the mastermind does a bit, but it is clear Bane is still his own man as she treats him like an equal, not a subordinate or employee, and he directly disobeys her about killing Bats as soon as she is out of earshot.

I do think the third movie has problems, but Bane is not one of them.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Bane never seemed to me like he was just Talia's love-sick lackey. Of course he would be the one to stay behind and guard Batman while Talia ensured that the bomb would explode. Batman could easily take down Talia if she were to be the one to stay behind.

Bane showed little regard for following Talia's orders and throughout the film seemed more like a protective father figure than a starstruck lover. He's much older than Talia, helps her escape after her mother is killed, and then continues to look after her later. Ra's feels jealousy because HE is Talia's father but she shows her affection to Bane, the man who took care of her and saved her. So Bane is driven to be a better leader of the League of Shadows than Ra's ever was, and Talia is driven to avenge her blood relative's death.

At no point does it appear that Talia is giving orders, as she is largely undercover for extended periods of time. Meanwhile, the entire league follows Bane's orders with palpable fear and unquestioning loyalty. Talia never got an extended finale because she wasn't the main villain of the film. In the end she was just the twist reveal and the driver of the bomb car. That's a disappointing use of a comic character but it doesn't make Bane just a goon.

Love or father-figures, I think a lot of male fans hate seeing villains or heroes being obligated or in a relationship of any sort with female characters. It "weakens" them. That is why almost all love interests are despised on fan boards or why, for example, comic writers felt compelled to get rid of MJ in the Spidey comics. I do not know why this is, but it is the tone in the community.