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Old 11-17-2012, 04:29 AM   #226
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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But the 'unsung hero' is literally Talia, is it not?
Yes, Talia had the trigger.

When Bane said his unsung hero speech during the football sequence, it conceptually brought to mind Joker giving people the detonators for the ferries.

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I my opinion, TDKR makes the trilogy perfect.
Some things I have issue with but I'm very glad the movie exists.

Re-watches help. It did wonders for me with TASM.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:18 AM   #227
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I think I love TDKR now

I started on my first viewing loving it. Loved it the second. Then began looking at comments here. Judged it a little on my third and then merely enjoyed it on my fourth. Then gradually over time and more time being on here I started regarding TDKR as a bit of a disappointment.

I watched the film now twice over the past two days (both times with people who haven't seen it. They all loved it) and have both times finished thinking that I was crazy for regarding it as a disappointment. It is a wonderful film.

I think its ambition is a big part of it for me. This isn't a studio film (an impression I had after my second viewing) I don't normally hate opinions but I hate it when I've seen people on here saying Nolan wasn't trying his best. I'm sorry but a director who isn't trying his best or really caring does not come out with a film as ambitious as The Dark Knight Rises for a final film.

Just a few points that (to me) make it ambitious -
- Batman not appearing till a long way in to the film
- The main character being beaten as brutally as Bats was half way through
- The baddie actually taking the city and having it for as long
- The hero retiring for good
- Batman having less than 10 minutes of screentime
- Not resorting to killing a main character to tug at the heartstrings
- Bruce barely being Batman (when you think about it he was Batman for little over a year) he does his job and leaves
- Bane's voice
- Being almost 3 hours long
- Having long moments without action

And quite a few more. Now not many will agree but I think making a film like this is ballsy. It could have backfired badly. I sat through a lot of the film thinking "How were you allowed to tell your story like this? Where is the producer telling Nolan to put him into the suit and fight?" he really takes his time. Unfortunately the second half is a bit more cramped but it still tells its story and fleshes it out as much as possible. Everything was important, I'm normally very much like "What was the point of that?" in films but never here.

The pit scenes for example people were saying were pointless but they provided a lot for the film. Talia's backstory, Bane's story, set up for the twist (blah *the twist was crap though* blah I expect someone to say ), Bruce finding fear, more of Ra's. I really don't think I appreciated this film before but I really do now.

I can now safely say that TDKR is a Nolan-esque film (a feeling I didn't get first time), a story that has a lot going on with a twist that has more than enough pointers that allow you to figure it out before hand as long as you pay attention. This ranks up with his best for me. I will also say that The Dark Knight Trilogy is his greatest work to date.

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Old 11-17-2012, 07:32 AM   #228
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

^^^ I disagree with almost every point you made. I do agree that nolan tried but not his hardest.

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Old 11-17-2012, 07:54 AM   #229
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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BB still stands as the weakest for me. TDK and TDKR are just as good.
My feelings on TDKR have become much clearer in the months after seeing it. That being said, I still rank it behind TDK and BB. I think BB is criminally underrated sometimes, every time I rewatch it in its entirety or parts of it I think 'this is what started it all, this is where all the other great aspects of the trilogy came from'.

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I think I love TDKR now

I started on my first viewing loving it. Loved it the second. Then began looking at comments here. Judged it a little on my third and then merely enjoyed it on my fourth. Then gradually over time and more time being on here I started regarding TDKR as a bit of a disappointment.

I watched the film now twice over the past two days (both times with people who haven't seen it. They all loved it) and have both times finished thinking that I was crazy for regarding it as a disappointment. It is a wonderful film.

I think its ambition is a big part of it for me. This isn't a studio film (an impression I had after my second viewing) I don't normally hate opinions but I hate it when I've seen people on here saying Nolan wasn't trying his best. I'm sorry but a director who isn't trying his best or really caring does not come out with a film as ambitious as The Dark Knight Rises for a final film.

Just a few points that (to me) make it ambitious -
- Batman not appearing till a long way in to the film
- The main character being beaten as brutally as Bats was half way through
- The baddie actually taking the city and having it for as long
- The hero retiring for good
- Batman having less than 10 minutes of screentime
- Not resorting to killing a main character to tug at the heartstrings
- Bruce barely being Batman (when you think about it he was Batman for little over a year) he does his job and leaves
- Bane's voice
- Being almost 3 hours long
- Having long moments without action

And quite a few more. Now not many will agree but I think making a film like this is ballsy. It could have backfired badly. I sat through a lot of the film thinking "How were you allowed to tell your story like this? Where is the producer telling Nolan to put him into the suit and fight?" he really takes his time. Unfortunately the second half is a bit more cramped but it still tells its story and fleshes it out as much as possible. Everything was important, I'm normally very much like "What was the point of that?" in films but never here.

The pit scenes for example people were saying were pointless but they provided a lot for the film. Talia's backstory, Bane's story, set up for the twist (blah *the twist was crap though* blah I expect someone to say ), Bruce finding fear, more of Ra's. I really don't think I appreciated this film before but I really do now.

I can now safely say that TDKR is a Nolan-esque film (a feeling I didn't get first time), a story that has a lot going on with a twist that has more than enough pointers that allow you to figure it out before hand as long as you pay attention. This ranks up with his best for me. I will also say that The Dark Knight Trilogy is his greatest work to date.
Good points and this kind of mirrors my own experience with TDKR. I think I've only recently come to truly see it as an integral part of the trilogy. The movie and the trilogy as a whole has its flaws, but I think it's one of the best of its kind when looking back on the last two decades or so.

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:49 AM   #230
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by Deserana View Post
I think I love TDKR now

I started on my first viewing loving it. Loved it the second. Then began looking at comments here. Judged it a little on my third and then merely enjoyed it on my fourth. Then gradually over time and more time being on here I started regarding TDKR as a bit of a disappointment.

I watched the film now twice over the past two days (both times with people who haven't seen it. They all loved it) and have both times finished thinking that I was crazy for regarding it as a disappointment. It is a wonderful film.

I think its ambition is a big part of it for me. This isn't a studio film (an impression I had after my second viewing) I don't normally hate opinions but I hate it when I've seen people on here saying Nolan wasn't trying his best. I'm sorry but a director who isn't trying his best or really caring does not come out with a film as ambitious as The Dark Knight Rises for a final film.

Just a few points that (to me) make it ambitious -
- Batman not appearing till a long way in to the film
- The main character being beaten as brutally as Bats was half way through
- The baddie actually taking the city and having it for as long
- The hero retiring for good
- Batman having less than 10 minutes of screentime
- Not resorting to killing a main character to tug at the heartstrings
- Bruce barely being Batman (when you think about it he was Batman for little over a year) he does his job and leaves
- Bane's voice
- Being almost 3 hours long
- Having long moments without action

And quite a few more. Now not many will agree but I think making a film like this is ballsy. It could have backfired badly. I sat through a lot of the film thinking "How were you allowed to tell your story like this? Where is the producer telling Nolan to put him into the suit and fight?" he really takes his time. Unfortunately the second half is a bit more cramped but it still tells its story and fleshes it out as much as possible. Everything was important, I'm normally very much like "What was the point of that?" in films but never here.

The pit scenes for example people were saying were pointless but they provided a lot for the film. Talia's backstory, Bane's story, set up for the twist (blah *the twist was crap though* blah I expect someone to say ), Bruce finding fear, more of Ra's. I really don't think I appreciated this film before but I really do now.

I can now safely say that TDKR is a Nolan-esque film (a feeling I didn't get first time), a story that has a lot going on with a twist that has more than enough pointers that allow you to figure it out before hand as long as you pay attention. This ranks up with his best for me. I will also say that The Dark Knight Trilogy is his greatest work to date.
I'm hoping I feel something similar to you when I rewatch it in a couple of weeks. I don't want to download it on-line and watch it. I want to watch it properly on blu-ray n my HD-TV.

It's the only way to watch a Nolan Batman movie. Especially ones with IMAX scenes in it.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:00 AM   #231
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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I'm hoping I feel something similar to you when I rewatch it in a couple of weeks. I don't want to download it on-line and watch it. I want to watch it properly on blu-ray n my HD-TV.

It's the only way to watch a Nolan Batman movie. Especially ones with IMAX scenes in it.
I hope you do, I was a bit like you were after my repeat viewings in that I thought it was good but had the potential to have been fantastic. But when I watched it at home I realised this is all we are gonna get and for some reason I ended up just loving it.

The rip I got was a very good looking 720p copy that I put on to my TV and I do feel guilty about downloading it and not waiting. Some of the audio was a little off in places and the prologue audio in particular was all over the place. The only reason I got it is because someone I know really wanted to see it and I'm gonna be waiting till next year to get the Ultimate Edition so thought I may watch it twice and then leave it for however many months.

That's as long as Warner release it in the UK and not abandon it like it did in the marketing stuff.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:17 AM   #232
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Oh man, I love how some people are enjoying TDKR even more now

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:24 AM   #233
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Great post Deserana!

I'd describe the film as ambitious, yet disciplined. Ballsy, yet heart-warming. HUGE, yet intimate. Terrifying, yet inspiring.

In a word...epic.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:33 AM   #234
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Great post Deserana!

I'd describe the film as ambitious, yet disciplined. Ballsy, yet heart-warming. HUGE, yet intimate. Terrifying, yet inspiring.

In a word...epic.
Yep. I can't see how people can say Nolan hasn't tried your hardest. If a film as big and ambitious yet intimate as TDKR is what you produce when your just merely trying then I can't wait to see the next film that Nolan puts his all into it. I'm not a big fan of LotR: The Two Towers but I wouldn't dare say Peter Jackson didn't put his all in to it.

Nolan wasn't always coming back. TDK left it well, he wasn't contracted to, TDK made enough money, he is a one film at a time director. Why would he choose to come back to a project then not put his all in to it? For the money? No. He could have made any film for WB. Green Lantern is what happens when you don't care or try.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:11 PM   #235
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^^^ I disagree with almost every point you made. I do agree that nolan tried but not his hardest.
Snap.

I think Nolan was firing on full cylinders with TDK, but it was like some of the passion went with Rises.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:17 PM   #236
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Snap? He trashes everything Nolan.

Snap...lol.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:21 PM   #237
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I only saw this figurative meaning until my third viewing. But the 'unsung hero' is literally Talia, is it not? She has made her way into Gotham's elite, and is a key part of their biggest corporation.
That's a good point too. Bane probably does see Talia as an unsung hero, for her infiltration, and for keeping her role in the plan shrouded in secret.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:23 PM   #238
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Snap? He trashes everything Nolan.

Snap...lol.
Ya mean moi?


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Old 11-17-2012, 01:25 PM   #239
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I'm pretty sure Anno was referring to last son, not you Fudgie.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:28 PM   #240
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I agree with those who say that some of the passion was not there for Rises. There was still much passion there in comparison with Green Lantern but still nowhere the amount of passion Nolan had before, which is why the movie turned out disappointing to me.

I wrote this in this thread a few pages back:
Quote:
I personally have a theory to why TDKR turned out so bad IMO. Nolan originally had a plan for 3 Batman movies. He completed 2/3 of his plans in BB and TDK but then Heath Ledger died and since the Joker was in Nolan's plan for the third movie but Nolan wanted to honor Ledger by not recasting the Joker, so he had to cancel all his plans and come up with a plan completely new from scratch - not even a backup plan btw. I'm also assuming that Nolan was given a limited amount of time by WB to come up with a new idea for the third movie or else they would've replaced him as the director, and that Nolan didn't have time to fully plan out everything but didn't want someone else to take over his franchise and mess it up at the same time. So he rushed into production with TDKR.

On top of that, I also feel that Nolan's heart and passion wasn't in this movie and I think that may be due to Ledger's death. We know part of the reason why Ledger was suffering from stress (or whatever mental condition he was suffering from) was due to all the physical, mental, and emotional work he put into portraying the Joker, so it wouldn't surprise me if Nolan feels a bit guilty & responsible for what happened to him. I am not saying Nolan is in any way guilty or responsible for Ledger's death. Just that it wouldn't be that unrealistic or unlikely if he himself felt that way. So with those 2 factors in mind, those could be the reasons why TDKR turned out the way it is.

I now believe I may have also found some evidence for this theory. If you look at TDKR, a good chunk of the story is copied and pasted content from books like No Man's Land, Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns, and Cataclysm. While BB and TDK were also inspired by many Batman stories and had a couple of scenes here and there that you can consider straight from a Batman comic, the movies were their own stories at the end of the day. TDKR is without a doubt the movie with the most story influence from the comics out of the trilogy and I would say that about half or more of the plot in the film is plot from the comics. This isn't really a bad thing but I think it shows that Nolan either could not come up with a story for the third movie (once again, he couldn't use the one he originally had in mind because he didn't want to recast the Joker), lost the passion to come up with a complete solid story due to Ledger's death, or both.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:33 PM   #241
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Just because you my not enjoy a film doesn't mean the director didn't have any passion for it. Nolan said time and time again he wasn't gonna return unless he felt there was a story worth telling. If he wasn't 100% invested in it why would hge return at all? He'd have no need to.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:44 PM   #242
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I now believe I may have also found some evidence for this theory. If you look at TDKR, a good chunk of the story is copied and pasted content from books like No Man's Land, Knightfall, The Dark Knight Returns, and Cataclysm. While BB and TDK were also inspired by many Batman stories and had a couple of scenes here and there that you can consider straight from a Batman comic, the movies were their own stories at the end of the day. TDKR is without a doubt the movie with the most story influence from the comics out of the trilogy and I would say that about half or more of the plot in the film is plot from the comics. This isn't really a bad thing but I think it shows that Nolan either could not come up with a story for the third movie (once again, he couldn't use the one he originally had in mind because he didn't want to recast the Joker), lost the passion to come up with a complete solid story due to Ledger's death, or both.
TDK certainly had major things lifted from the comics that extended beyond just scenes. The whole concept of Joker trying to corrupt one of Batman's allies is straight out of The Killing Joke, and Jonah and Goyer said that flat out. Which was a major, major plot point, not just a nod like the Batman/Gordon/Dent rooftop scene (to The Long Halloween) and the countless other nods in all three films. That's a major anchor that the themes of the entire movie rest upon.

Not to mention, there are some uncanny similarities there to Steve Englehart's Dark Detective, to the point where Englehart claimed that the movie plagiarized him. Granted, I think he's WAY out of line with those accusations but I have no doubt that Goyer had to have at least come across that story in their research. There's as about as much basis to say that as there is to say that Nolan didn't have any passion for Rises.

Bottom line, for this film they wanted to go larger scale and as a result they referenced Batman stories that were on a larger scale. And it's unfair to just single out Nolan for the shape of the story. Goyer and Jonah Nolan have just as much to do with what the script ended up becoming, and those are the two comics nerds of the trio. Same can be said for TDK (and BB too- Jonah was uncredited for his work on that one).

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:46 PM   #243
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Just because you my not enjoy a film doesn't mean the director didn't have any passion for it. Nolan said time and time again he wasn't gonna return unless he felt there was a story worth telling. If he wasn't 100% invested in it why would hge return at all? He'd have no need to.
Remember that TDKR is a controversial film within the fanbase. I was mainly addressing that to the people that were as dissapointed with TDKR as I was.

Whether or not he was returning, the franchise most likely wouldn't have been rebooted after TDK. WB would've probably wrapped it up with the third movie either way or continued it with sequel after sequel. There exists the possibility that Nolan did not want to see someone else continue the franchise he created. I'm also assuming that WB gave him a limited time to come back or otherwise, they would've replaced him. That's how the business usually works. So Nolan had a limited amount of time to come up with a story before WB would replace him as director and the franchise would've continued without him and Nolan may have not wanted to see that happen so he rushed his plans for the story, looked at many comic books and used a lot of the plot from there, and then went to WB to conclude his trilogy (and to be fair, WB gave him at least a 2 year time period to let him plan out everything since Nolan announced he was returning to Batman in 2010).

I'm not saying this is true but it is a possibility.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:50 PM   #244
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Remember that TDKR is a controversial film within the fanbase.
No, it isn't. The majority enjoy the film very much.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #245
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TDK certainly had major things lifted from the comics that extended beyond just scenes. The whole concept of Joker trying to corrupt one of Batman's allies is straight out of The Killing Joke, and Jonah and Goyer said that flat out. Which was a major, major plot point, not just a nod like the Batman/Gordon/Dent rooftop scene (to The Long Halloween) and the countless other nods in all three films. That's a major anchor that the themes of the entire movie rest upon.

Not to mention, there are some uncanny similarities there to Steve Englehart's Dark Detective, to the point where Englehart claimed that the movie plagiarized him. Granted, I think he's WAY out of line with those accusations but I have no doubt that Goyer had to have at least come across that story in their research. There's as about as much basis to say that as there is to say that Nolan didn't have any passion for Rises.

Bottom line, for this film they wanted to go larger scale and as a result they referenced Batman stories that were on a larger scale. And it's unfair to just single out Nolan for the shape of the story. Goyer and Jonah Nolan have just as much to do with what the script ended up becoming, and those are the two comics nerds of the trio. Same can be said for TDK (and BB too- Jonah was uncredited for his work on that one).
I'm not talking about the overall story. I'm talking about individual scenes. There are many scenes in TDKR that are exactly like certain scenes in the comics down to almost every line of dialogue. You're right when it comes to the overall story of TDK being influenced by the comics but I was specifically talking about individual scenes. TDKR has more individual scenes that mirror individual scenes in the comics than BB and TDK did (and in my opinion, some of them don't work well together in the context of the movie).

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:54 PM   #246
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No, it isn't. The majority enjoy the film very much.
Controversy =/= people either really dislike or really like the movie

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:56 PM   #247
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Controversy =/= people either really dislike or really like the movie
In that case, TDK and BB are controversial too. Every film has its detractors. Every single film.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:58 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Shikamaru View Post
Controversy =/= people either really dislike or really like the movie
But this isn't true. Most love it, some think its good but had more potential, few dislike it. This film doesn't have a black or white reaction there is a grey area.

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Old 11-17-2012, 01:59 PM   #249
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by redfirebird2008 View Post
In that case, TDK and BB are controversial too. Every film has its detractors. Every single film.
That's true. But to different extents. I've been on these forums for both Begins and TDK's release, and I never recall either one causing this much of a division with the fans as Rises has.

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Old 11-17-2012, 02:01 PM   #250
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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No, it isn't. The majority enjoy the film very much.
True. You'd get the feeling in SHH that TDKR is some kind of SM3 disaster which ia completely false.

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