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Old 11-17-2012, 02:11 PM   #10
American Maid
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

I'm going to try copying and pasting from several posts, editing in WordPad before pasting the whole thing back (my suggestion to you, Jon, for future posts). We'll lose the links tht they Hype puts in, but it's so hard to capture evereything with the multiquote and then editing around the tags.

I said:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I wonder if Thor will be asked to make some moral sacrifice so as to free Jane from the malevolent spirit.
and elizah said:
Maybe, but take a look at this quote and replace America and country with Asgard, and you will understand more where I am coming from, as to this Moral Sacrifice theme...

The moral sacrifice means one must place the “good” and the “bad” on the same moral plane, thus devaluing the “good” and giving undue legitimacy to the “bad.” Man is asked to defend and support his country even when one’s government is acting immorally, i.e. violating individual rights. No reason is given for why man should support his country under such circumstances beyond that it is his country. This is not patriotism. This is nationalism.
Ah! Now I feel like I'm starting to get a handle on what you mean by moral sacrifice and what you mean by avoiding moral sacrifice. What I read in the above is fidelity to a principle over a political jurisdiction. (Let me know if that's not a correct interpretation, though.)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In an earlier discussion, you had talked about going against a principle for the greater good, specifically, the possiblility of Thor having to kill possessed-Jane if the malevolent spirit turned out to be a great threat. So earlier I had thought maybe that was what you were referring to.
I do enjoy films having (a) philosophical theme(s) informing the action in the foreground, and this is pretty meaty material. So I like it a lot. I also think it fits well with how Thor regards the non-Asgard realms in relation to Asgard.

Edit: (forgot to say this earlier) Films sometimes have the theme both writ large and writ small. So they could have more than one moral sacrifice show up. But the grand one is the one you want to have, if you can have only one.

elizah said:
Marvel Freshman I think said something about maybe Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard.... so a dimentional rift maybe, that transforms Midgard?
My understanding was that he was saying that the two realms influenced each other, rather than a dimensional rift. But perhaps I had the wrong understanding.

elizah said:
I'll have to get back to you later on the other stuff. I'm not sure I agree on everything you have down there but I'd like to think on it some more.
My intent was to summarize ideas put forward by you, Jon(Aqua), and everyone else. (Just don't want to overstate my part )

elizah said:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
And We still haven't sorted out how Malekith might transform Kurse, if that is the case, and why he doesn't do it sooner against Thor.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I don't know that we were thinking strongly that Malekith would transform him. We thought it would be something more powerful. So maybe Surtur intervenes directly or indirectly, was Jon(Aqua)'s idea.

elizah said:
Odin dies, he takes Surtur out by sacrificing himself (I think something similar in the comics, right?)
As I recall from plot summaries, they both go into some sort of dimensional rift and are presumed dead.

Thereafter the Asgardians call an Althing to elect a new ruler. Loki is angling to line up enough votes for himself. Wht I quote froom you below could be consistent with that.
elizah said:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

and if Thor is fighting the Elves on Midgard, and either Thor doesn't get back in time, or gets back to Asgard just as Odin and Surtur have their final battle and a bit late to try to stop Odin dying, then Odin will not be the one judging him. It will be the other Asgardians. And see "moral sacrifice" and patriotism etc. that I quoted up there again. If that is the way the Asgardians think, then they could conceivably shun Thor for deserting Asgard in its greatest time of need, and the death of Odin.
elizah said:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Certainly that is a heavy weight for Thor to carry going into Avengers 2 where I believe Joss said he would be getting more personal and twisting a few knives with the characters there. And it would give a very plausible reason for Thor to be hanging out on Earth, shunned and blaming himself for what happened to Odin, (though maybe someone will tell him to read the comics, it happens that way anyway. lol). And of course that could potentially set up Loki on the throne of Asgard for Avengers 2 and maybe even Thor 3. Because he is already recognized as an heir to the throne of Asgard, no matter what he's done, and enough other Asgardians may agree that he has a right to that, (as has happened many times in our own history with monarchies). Some Asgardians may even agree with what he tried to do in Thor 1 to the Jotuns (they all dont necessarily know his true parentage, and they are the "monsters parents tell their children about at night"). Who knows, but it certainly sets up an interesting scenario for both Thor and Loki and completely turns their previous dynamic on it's head. Even if Loki goes in to leadership this time with some good intentions, you know it wont' be long before mischief and mayhem make an appearance.
I agree about these things weighing heavily on Thor. ANd it would be some interesting twists for the future films you mention!

Last edited by American Maid; 11-17-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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