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Old 11-17-2012, 05:14 PM   #376
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Deserana View Post
TDKR is as universally loved if not more than TDK... may not seem it looking through these forums but it really is.
It's got a lower critical rating than TDK on both Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes. It's got a lower rating than TDK on IMDB, Yahoo, and just about every website that averages movie ratings by the thousands.

So I'm not sure what you're basing this assertion on. It can definitely be said it's more popular than Batman Begins. But definitely not TDK.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:22 PM   #377
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

Okay I was mistaken on that

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:32 PM   #378
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

TDKR should get recognition for technical categories. Cinematography, sound, sound editing, etc.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:48 PM   #379
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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It's got a lower critical rating than TDK on both Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes. It's got a lower rating than TDK on IMDB, Yahoo, and just about every website that averages movie ratings by the thousands.

So I'm not sure what you're basing this assertion on. It can definitely be said it's more popular than Batman Begins. But definitely not TDK.





You do realize that some of those critics negative reviews of TDKR lowered the overall ratings on RT and Meta.

Some of those small percentage of negative reviews, seemed to have a personal agenda against Mr Nolan or comic film genre films in general.

We also have to remember that Ledgers Joker performance is probably why some feel that TDK is a better film than TDKR.

That's the why I feel about the two films as well. IF TDK is truly better than TDKR, than it's mainly because of Ledgers Joker.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:52 PM   #380
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I did not know Cronenberg said that. He does know that A History of Violence (his best film in the last 20 years) was based on a comic book, right? Oh excuse me, "graphic novel."

I do agree with the notion that a superhero is juvenile in its inception, but that does not mean it cannot be elevated to something more. I wouldn't argue The Avengers should be recognized for Best Picture, but I think The Dark Knight was the best film of 2008 and The Dark Knight Rises is certainly one of the 10 best movies of 2012 (though not near the top, IMO).

But I am not surprised by such snobbery. It took forever for LOTR to be recognized. And I think the only horror film to be recognized was Black Swan, because it was about ballet and the acting and images were astounding. Still, it is surprising to hear Cronenberg be the voice of such narrow-mindedness. This is a man who spent much of his early career trying, and usually succeeding, in elevating horror into art with movies like The Fly and The Dead Zone. Horror is in itself a mass consumed genre that usually aims for the lowest denominator. But I doubt he would speak so lowly of films that have elevated it, including his own.

That is very surprising.



BTW, the first Lord of the Rings film, was an overall better film than Return of the King and then Return of the King, (a fantasy film) ends up winning Best Picture.

Go figure.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:54 PM   #381
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Visiting Arkham View Post
This year's nominees:

The Master
Argo
Silver Linings Playbook
Lincoln
Les Miserables
The Hobbit
Django Unchained
Zero Dark Thirty
Life of Pi
Holy Motors

Underdogs:

Beasts of the Suthern Wild
Anna Karenina
The Sessions
Moonrise Kingdom
Amour
This is 40
The Promised Land
Looper
Cloud Atlas


These are all films that will make it before The Dark Knight Rises, so I would ask that everyone keep their expectations low for a Best Picture Nod. Like, under the foundations of the southeast corner low. Look to the technical awards, which will be difficult enough with juggernauts like The Hobbit and Les Mis in the field.




Life of Pi, The Master, Zero Dark Dirty and Django Unchained being nominated over TDKR would be a joke IMO.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:57 PM   #382
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

That said, I'd say people prefer TDK to TDKR like people prefer ESB over ANH.

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Old 11-17-2012, 06:51 PM   #383
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Life of Pi, The Master, Zero Dark Dirty and Django Unchained being nominated over TDKR would be a joke IMO.
You should perhaps see Life of Pi, Zero Dark Thirty, and Django Unchained before assuming The Dark Knight Rises is a better film.

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Old 11-17-2012, 06:54 PM   #384
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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So are you if ya keep coming back to argue about something ya think is so cut and dry.
A mixture of naive hopefulness and sardonic amusement.

You have to understand, for me, this is akin to watching Star Wars fans argue among each other whether ESB or ANH is the better movie.

Or Godfather fans trying to decide whether the first movie really deserves that extra one tenth of a point over Part II on IMDB.

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Old 11-17-2012, 07:07 PM   #385
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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How the hell is 87% UNIVERSAL? What happened to the other 13%?
It's that minority we speak of that didn't like TDKR

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Old 11-17-2012, 07:21 PM   #386
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

The petty fighting sniping name calling and general childishness will stop....or everyone gets probation.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:01 PM   #387
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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BTW, the first Lord of the Rings film, was an overall better film than Return of the King and then Return of the King, (a fantasy film) ends up winning Best Picture.

Go figure.
Whilst Fellowship may have been a better movie the reward for Return of the King was for the entire trilogy. Lets face it The Dark Knight series isn't nearly as impressive an accomplishment as bringing to life the most famous and difficult to translate fantasy novel of all time.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:11 PM   #388
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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You do realize that some of those critics negative reviews of TDKR lowered the overall ratings on RT and Meta.
Well yes, the more negative reviews the lower the score. Hence why TDK is more popular. It didn't have as many negative reviews.

Quote:
Some of those small percentage of negative reviews, seemed to have a personal agenda against Mr Nolan or comic film genre films in general.
I sincerely doubt that. Can you show some samples of these biased reviews?

Quote:
We also have to remember that Ledgers Joker performance is probably why some feel that TDK is a better film than TDKR.
Heath was not the only highly praised element of TDK.

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The petty fighting sniping name calling and general childishness will stop....or everyone gets probation.
Thank you

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:25 PM   #389
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Whilst Fellowship may have been a better movie the reward for Return of the King was for the entire trilogy. Lets face it The Dark Knight series isn't nearly as impressive an accomplishment as bringing to life the most famous and difficult to translate fantasy novel of all time.
It is an entirely different kind of an accomplishment but I'd say The Dark Knight is up there with LotR. For a Batman franchise to be a successful as this trilogy was after Batman Forever and Batman and Robin was remarkable. Yes the established Batman fanbase was there but there was no guarantee it would build up a new general audience.

It also came out in a time where comic book films and superhero films were dominiting the big screen so to be able to stand out from them was also a big achievement. This trilogy also undoubtabely influenced many other films (Amazing Spider-Man, Man of Steel, Skyfall) and will continue. They are big ambitious films all loved by fans and critics and earnt a ****load of money back.

Also an accomplishment in filmmaking with Nolan's big scale storytelling with practical effects and the biggest IMAX film in film history. The city brawl, stadium scene, 18 wheeler, hundreds of cop cars chase, the bat/truck chase is all massive practical old school storytelling.

From Day 1 Warner let the Director tell the story he wanted to (Quite rare with a big franchise) and let it go from there.

It may be for different reasons but I'd say The Dark Knight Trilogy is just as big an accomplishment as the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:26 PM   #390
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

The TDK trilogy took a 70 year ongoing saga and adapted it into a rich three part epic. It treated American pop entertainment like it was literature. I'd argue that's just as impressive and ambitious.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:49 PM   #391
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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The TDK trilogy took a 70 year ongoing saga and adapted it into a rich three part epic. It treated American pop entertainment like it was literature. I'd argue that's just as impressive and ambitious.
But...the American pop entertainment already WAS literature...

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:37 PM   #392
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

I don't disagree. But not in the eyes of the Academy.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:44 PM   #393
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

I love the Lotr trilogy. But to say it was a much greater achievement than the dark knight trilogy is mind boggling to me. The whole story was laid out for Jackson. Of course it was a great trilogy and impressive in its own right but in my mind they are definitely comparable and tdk series has things that are far more impressive than Lotr.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:00 AM   #394
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I don't disagree. But not in the eyes of the Academy.
I don't think it really matters if it were literature in their eyes or not. By definition...it was literature.

I also don't think that treating it like literature was what made the films special.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:41 AM   #395
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Whilst Fellowship may have been a better movie the reward for Return of the King was for the entire trilogy. Lets face it The Dark Knight series isn't nearly as impressive an accomplishment as bringing to life the most famous and difficult to translate fantasy novel of all time.


Totally disagree with what you just said on many levels and I will just leave it at that. You can argue with other folks in here on that one.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:42 AM   #396
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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It is an entirely different kind of an accomplishment but I'd say The Dark Knight is up there with LotR. For a Batman franchise to be a successful as this trilogy was after Batman Forever and Batman and Robin was remarkable. Yes the established Batman fanbase was there but there was no guarantee it would build up a new general audience.

It also came out in a time where comic book films and superhero films were dominiting the big screen so to be able to stand out from them was also a big achievement. This trilogy also undoubtabely influenced many other films (Amazing Spider-Man, Man of Steel, Skyfall) and will continue. They are big ambitious films all loved by fans and critics and earnt a ****load of money back.

Also an accomplishment in filmmaking with Nolan's big scale storytelling with practical effects and the biggest IMAX film in film history. The city brawl, stadium scene, 18 wheeler, hundreds of cop cars chase, the bat/truck chase is all massive practical old school storytelling.

From Day 1 Warner let the Director tell the story he wanted to (Quite rare with a big franchise) and let it go from there.

It may be for different reasons but I'd say The Dark Knight Trilogy is just as big an accomplishment as the Lord of the Rings trilogy.



Nice post.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:43 AM   #397
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I don't think it really matters if it were literature in their eyes or not. By definition...it was literature.

I also don't think that treating it like literature was what made the films special.
Well, we're talking about Oscar eligibility, and I was speaking to the argument of LOTR being a greater achievement because it was an adaptation of a beloved epic fantasy novel. My point was these films were adaptations too, but there was no specific rode map, there's an endless number of ways you can adapt Batman because there's so much variety in the comics and no way to pack 70 years of stories into a movie. And Batman himself is arguably one of the most beloved characters in all of fiction. So on that merit alone, it's a more creative endeavor than LOTR from a writing standpoint because the author is much more free to use artistic license and let their original ideas mingle with existing ones. The way these films were made (particularly TDK and TDKR) brought the inherent literary themes of Batman and to the forefront and got many people who had never taken Batman seriously to take it very seriously. It presented the story in a way that both fans and non-fans could invest in and believe in. It got people discussing the films in a way that is unparalleled for the genre.

I wish The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen were required High School reading, but that's not the world we live in...yet. That's what I mean when I say literature, I'm talking classic literature.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:46 AM   #398
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Whilst Fellowship may have been a better movie the reward for Return of the King was for the entire trilogy. Lets face it The Dark Knight series isn't nearly as impressive an accomplishment as bringing to life the most famous and difficult to translate fantasy novel of all time.


You can believe that if you want.

The Lord of the Rings films are still based on Fantasy literature, which is in the same realm as the comic book genre IMO.

The comic book genre is fantasy type of literature actually with some sci fi elements of course.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:48 AM   #399
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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I don't think it really matters if it were literature in their eyes or not. By definition...it was literature.

I also don't think that treating it like literature was what made the films special.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmc View Post
Whilst Fellowship may have been a better movie the reward for Return of the King was for the entire trilogy. Lets face it The Dark Knight series isn't nearly as impressive an accomplishment as bringing to life the most famous and difficult to translate fantasy novel of all time.
Quoted for truth, gents.

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Old 11-18-2012, 03:43 AM   #400
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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It is an entirely different kind of an accomplishment but I'd say The Dark Knight is up there with LotR. For a Batman franchise to be a successful as this trilogy was after Batman Forever and Batman and Robin was remarkable. Yes the established Batman fanbase was there but there was no guarantee it would build up a new general audience.

It also came out in a time where comic book films and superhero films were dominiting the big screen so to be able to stand out from them was also a big achievement. This trilogy also undoubtabely influenced many other films (Amazing Spider-Man, Man of Steel, Skyfall) and will continue. They are big ambitious films all loved by fans and critics and earnt a ****load of money back.

Also an accomplishment in filmmaking with Nolan's big scale storytelling with practical effects and the biggest IMAX film in film history. The city brawl, stadium scene, 18 wheeler, hundreds of cop cars chase, the bat/truck chase is all massive practical old school storytelling.

From Day 1 Warner let the Director tell the story he wanted to (Quite rare with a big franchise) and let it go from there.

It may be for different reasons but I'd say The Dark Knight Trilogy is just as big an accomplishment as the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
As good as Nolan's trilogy may have turned out (film 3 notwithstanding) the shear audacity of Jackson to bring the single greatest fantasy story ever written to life in one massive filming period is by far a bigger accomplishment. It's not even a contest, shooting 3 films at once and releasing them in consecutive years? Unheard of. 300+ day shooting, the constant script changes along the way, a fully CG character that had to act, a nightmare schedule for post production, and the fact that all it needed was one bad film to screw up the rest of the series. So much could have gone wrong with LOTR yet Jackson nailed it, and was justifiably rewarded. ROTK winning wasn't because it was the best film, it was for the entire project.

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