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Old 11-17-2012, 04:18 PM   #76
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Love or father-figures, I think a lot of male fans hate seeing villains or heroes being obligated or in a relationship of any sort with female characters. It "weakens" them. That is why almost all love interests are despised on fan boards or why, for example, comic writers felt compelled to get rid of MJ in the Spidey comics. I do not know why this is, but it is the tone in the community.
Yeah, I don't understand it either. I also don't understand the leaps in logic that are made about Talia and Bane's relationship. Maybe they are in love. Maybe he is a father figure for her (the film doesn't seem to support one theory over another). Is Talia the boss? Is Bane the boss? Are they equal in authority? Any of those three would fit the film fine and make plenty of sense. But no, everyone jumps to "Bane was in love with Talia, who is really his boss, gah he's just a lovesick puppy and not a badass!" Wow, these people can tell a lot from one scene where Talia and Bane hardly even speak to one another.

Throughout the film, the picture we get of Talia is of someone who works from the shadows... the crafty slow knife... the deep undercover deciever. The picture we get of Bane is brute force... intimidating strength... charismatic leadership. Just look at all of the speeches Bane gives throughout the film. Just look at how he schools Daggett on real power. This guy isn't just a lackey for anyone. I don't see how the Talia reveal suddenly erases all those depictions of true villainous strength.

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Old 11-17-2012, 04:43 PM   #77
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The thing is,Ra's wasn't on a suicide mission.Bats fixed the train sos it would crash.From what we see in BB,the LOS is not presented as a "suicidal" org.

That all changes in TDKR under Bane/Talia's leadership,but that wasn't Ra's intent for the LOS.

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:07 PM   #78
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Ra's was the one who smashed the brakes on the train wasn't he? He did it when Batman tried to manually stop the train. Wasn't that the whole point of getting Gordon to blow the tracks? It was a back up in case Batman couldn't manually stop the train himself? Otherwise what was the point in going up there to confront Ra's in the first place?

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Old 11-17-2012, 05:29 PM   #79
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Yes. Bats kicks Ra's down, then turns to stop the train. Ra's comes up behind him and stabs his broken sword repeatedly into the controls, thus preventing Batman from manually stopping the train.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:20 PM   #80
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

My understanding of Ra's plan was to use the train to get the water vaporiser to the water tower.I didn't take it that crashing it and killing himself was part of his plan.But I do think he would be the type to give his life for "the cause".

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:08 PM   #81
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

After my first home viewing this evening I can say until now pacing was not a problem, but now I can truly see everyones gripes.

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:12 PM   #82
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True. But this is the only instance ever of Talia telling Bane to do something in the film. Ever, as far as we know. And Bane disregards it, despite his supposed "puppydog love" for Talia. So what does that tell us about Bane? What do we know about him, given the limited knowledge at our disposal?
Well, given the context? Only that he wants to kill Batman and is capable of disobeying Talia's orders.

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There is absolutely no evidence in the film that Talia was the leader. None. The only reason people think that is because of one interaction between her and Bane.
Which is the only scene the film gives us in regard to their relationship. Where it becomes apparent that Bane’s stated plan…was actually Talia’s plan, and borne out of her own desire for revenge.

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Eh, I read Knightfall and KnightsEnd. The latter was better because Bane is a very, very boring character and his plan is very generic.
I don’t see how he’s any more boring in the comics than he is in the film…

How is breaking a bunch of iconic, infamous madmen out of an asylum to create chaos and wear down your opponent so that you can study him before you ultimately break him and take over his city “generic”? Where have we seen that done before in film or in comics or in literature in general? Much less to the point where it has become "generic"?

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It also doesn't help that Bane's personality isn't developed much beyond that of a generic pro-wrestler (hence his appearance).
Bane’s basically a self-made supervillain, Batman’s opposite. He sets himself as a sort of dictator/mob boss. He’s clearly very intelligent and cunning and quite strong and skilled.

How do you get “generic pro wrestler” out of that in regard to his personality?

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Also, he made Bane a lot more interesting and developed as a character.
Arguable. He barely developed Bane at all, and the development Bane received in the movie largely revolves around the twist that it's not actually his development, and ultimately, any development he receives pales in comparison to the development he has received in the relevant comics.

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This guy isn't just a lackey for anyone. I don't see how the Talia reveal suddenly erases all those depictions of true villainous strength.
It doesn’t.

What it does do is seriously cast into doubt whether Bane has any strong motivations of his own, which weakens him as a character.

That’s part of the reason people are calling him a “lackey”. It’s hyperbole on their part… clearly he’s more involved than just being a henchman, but Talia’s speech at the end of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES essentially boils down to “He did it all for me” and reveals that the intent behind everything going on stems from her own desire for revenge, which makes Bane look like he doesn’t have any motivations of his own. And since Talia’s motivations is fairly weak, and is basically a warmed over version of Ra’s Al Ghul’s mixed with a generic revenge plot…this isn’t a good thing for Bane in the least.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:51 AM   #83
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

^Well, that and she is how Ra's is still immortal, they dragged Neeson back to tell ya he has a child heir keeping the League afloat. Talia controls the bomb. The audience is mislead until the reveal as Bruce thinks Bane is his child and Gordon says twice that Bane controls the bomb.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:52 AM   #84
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Bravo, Guard. Bravo.

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Old 11-18-2012, 05:34 AM   #85
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Yes. Bats kicks Ra's down, then turns to stop the train. Ra's comes up behind him and stabs his broken sword repeatedly into the controls, thus preventing Batman from manually stopping the train.
I'm curious about this.
I don't think this is the case simply because when Batman says: "Who said anything about stopping it," Ra's looks up in surprise, the camera cuts to the broken controls and then back to his surprised reaction.

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:31 AM   #86
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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I'm curious about this.
I don't think this is the case simply because when Batman says: "Who said anything about stopping it," Ra's looks up in surprise, the camera cuts to the broken controls and then back to his surprised reaction.
I think it's in reference to the back up plan of blowing the tracks. Ra's smashed the brakes, but Batman keeps on fighting. Ra's is under the assumption that Batman is still trying to stop the train.

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:27 AM   #87
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Did they ever find Ra's Al Ghul's body after Begins? I can't remember.

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:42 AM   #88
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Doh Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

This thread should be titled; I know more than Christopher Nolan!


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Old 11-18-2012, 12:11 PM   #89
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This thread should be titled; I know more than Christopher Nolan!
Sounds good to moi. Nolan ain't infallible. He's made his blunders, especially in Rises.

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Old 11-18-2012, 03:47 PM   #90
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Which is the only scene the film gives us in regard to their relationship. Where it becomes apparent that Bane’s stated plan…was actually Talia’s plan, and borne out of her own desire for revenge.
Borne out of her desire for revenge, as well as their radical desire to see Gotham punished. Bane was always a radical. This is made clear from the start of the film. Revenge against Bruce isn't his or Talia's only motivation, nor does the fact that Talia desires revenge against Bruce indicate that she alone is in charge.

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It doesn’t.

What it does do is seriously cast into doubt whether Bane has any strong motivations of his own, which weakens him as a character.

That’s part of the reason people are calling him a “lackey”. It’s hyperbole on their part… clearly he’s more involved than just being a henchman, but Talia’s speech at the end of THE DARK KNIGHT RISES essentially boils down to “He did it all for me” and reveals that the intent behind everything going on stems from her own desire for revenge, which makes Bane look like he doesn’t have any motivations of his own. And since Talia’s motivations is fairly weak, and is basically a warmed over version of Ra’s Al Ghul’s mixed with a generic revenge plot…this isn’t a good thing for Bane in the least.
But Bane DOES have a motivation of his own. See? Even in the scenario you describe, bane has a motivation - to obsessively and relentlessly be Talia's protector and ally. She is to Bane what Gotham City is to Bruce.

But the scenario you described isn't a full enough picture. Bane is quite clear about his views that Gotham is corrupt. He calls the stock brokers thieves ("We have nothing to steal!" "Then why are you people here?"). He mocks Jim Gordon and his letter. He views himself as a "necessary evil." He quite clearly has motivations of his own beyond Talia's personal desires of vengeance. One little scene does not change all that.

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Old 11-18-2012, 03:55 PM   #91
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Sounds good to moi. Nolan ain't infallible. He's made his blunders, especially in Rises.
You're saying "I know more than Christopher Nolan!" is a title that sounds good enough to you?

I'd love to see you write and/or direct a Batman film...and then we can make a thread titled "I know more than Fudgie!" after your mistakes

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Old 11-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #92
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You're saying "I know more than Christopher Nolan!" is a title that sounds good enough to you?

I'd love to see you write and/or direct a Batman film...and then we can make a thread titled "I know more than Fudgie!" after your mistakes
That's why I hate when "fans" criticize a filmmaker's work. Like they ever made anything near what he made. And this whole thread is just a disgrace.

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Old 11-18-2012, 04:16 PM   #93
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Making some criticism is fine as I have fairly enough with CBMs as well, but to say 'I know more than (the director's name)' is a juvenile way of thinking.

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Old 11-18-2012, 04:23 PM   #94
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But Bane DOES have a motivation of his own. See? Even in the scenario you describe, bane has a motivation - to obsessively and relentlessly be Talia's protector and ally. She is to Bane what Gotham City is to Bruce.

But the scenario you described isn't a full enough picture. Bane is quite clear about his views that Gotham is corrupt. He calls the stock brokers thieves ("We have nothing to steal!" "Then why are you people here?"). He mocks Jim Gordon and his letter. He views himself as a "necessary evil." He quite clearly has motivations of his own beyond Talia's personal desires of vengeance. One little scene does not change all that.
Right, he has a motivation (the nature of which is leading people to call him a "lackey"), and as has been pointed out...his motivation is a thin one. If that's his ultimate motivation, and it certainly appears to be (other than hating the rich and being really evil), it's only touched on in a single conversation that he's not even a part of.

The problem isn't that the characters have no motivation at all...the problem is that their given motivations are thin, (in the case of Bane's actual motivations) not explored much at all, and in the case of Bane referring to Gotham's "corruption", make no logical sense given what the film actually shows us. The reasons Bane gives for doing what he does to Gotham are nonsense...he's just using that as cover...the ultimate goal is to make Gotham suffer, and to make Bruce suffer through Gotham's plight.

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:38 PM   #95
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Right, he has a motivation (the nature of which is leading people to call him a "lackey"), and as has been pointed out...his motivation is a thin one. If that's his ultimate motivation, and it certainly appears to be (other than hating the rich and being really evil), it's only touched on in a single conversation that he's not even a part of.

The problem isn't that the characters have no motivation at all...the problem is that their given motivations are thin, (in the case of Bane's actual motivations) not explored much at all, and in the case of Bane referring to Gotham's "corruption", make no logical sense given what the film actually shows us. The reasons Bane gives for doing what he does to Gotham are nonsense...he's just using that as cover...the ultimate goal is to make Gotham suffer, and to make Bruce suffer through Gotham's plight.
Why is it so obvious that what Bane is doing is just "cover" for making Bruce suffer? Where do you see that in the film? (I'm not asking that to be insulting, I really am curious) It is possible to have multiple motivations. How is destroying Gotham and its corruption a thinner motivator than any other Nolan Batman villain motivation? Crane: enjoys playing with people's fears. Thought Ra's was going to ransom the city. Ra's: Wanted to bring "justice" to Gotham by destroying it (same as Bane and Talia). Joker: cause chaos. Harvey: crazy revenge.

Bane's motivations are no thinner than any of those. I'm willing to make any number of critiques of this film, but the critique about Bane's motivations makes absolutely no sense to me. His motivations are no "thinner" than any other villain's motivations in the trilogy, IMHO.

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Old 11-18-2012, 09:44 PM   #96
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Here's the problem here, in my opinion: people are taking one scene about Bane (the Talia reveal) and making it the all-powerful interpretative key to understanding every scene before it. But in doing so they are shifting the weight from what we were definitively shown before (Bane's strength, resolve, passion, fervor, etc.) to what they suppose is going on in the Talia reveal scene (oh no Talia is really in charge, Bane is just a lackey!). Its an unbalanced interpretative frame. I totally agree Talia was mishandled and wasted, and that Bane's "death" was anti-climactic. Its the level to which the Talia reveal scene supposedly degrades Bane's character in spite of everything that went before that I just don't get, and I haven't seen an argument that convinces me to go along with it.

My two cents.

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Old 11-18-2012, 11:19 PM   #97
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Why is it so obvious that what Bane is doing is just "cover" for making Bruce suffer? Where do you see that in the film? (I'm not asking that to be insulting, I really am curious)
Because there's a scene in the movie where Bane actually says to Bruce that all the things he's doing in Gotham amounts to hooey and that he's basically biding his time and killing people until he blows Gotham up...and that he wants Gotham to suffer so Bruce will suffer.

Why does he want Bruce to suffer? Who the hell knows? We're not shown or told why until the end of the film when it turns out that Bane wants Bruce to suffer because Talia wanted him to suffer.

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It is possible to have multiple motivations. How is destroying Gotham and its corruption a thinner motivator than any other Nolan Batman villain motivation?
Crane: enjoys playing with people's fears. Thought Ra's was going to ransom the city. Ra's: Wanted to bring "justice" to Gotham by destroying it (same as Bane and Talia).
"The villain's plot" is not what I mean by motivation. I'm talking about what drives the character and motivates their actions, not the villainous actions they wish to take. Frankly, you're right, on the surface, none of Nolan's villains have had terribly interesting or deep motivations, though the exploration of them and where they come from was certainly handled better in previous films than it was in The Dark Knight Rises.

And I don't just mean "thin" in the sense that they're thin as motivations...but in that they're thinly written and executed.

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Here's the problem here, in my opinion: people are taking one scene about Bane (the Talia reveal) and making it the all-powerful interpretative key to understanding every scene before it.
That's because, based on the film's content, that's apparently what the filmmakers intended. They parcel out bits about the characters that don't really amount to anything except a building "mystery" until that key scene dumps reveal after reveal on the audience about who is who and where they came from and why they do what they're doing.

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But in doing so they are shifting the weight from what we were definitively shown before (Bane's strength, resolve, passion, fervor, etc.) to what they suppose is going on in the Talia reveal scene (oh no Talia is really in charge, Bane is just a lackey!).
No one has said that Bane loses any of his strength, passion, resolve or
fervor...people seem to still very much enjoy Bane's basics. People have simply pointed out that the film suddenly makes it apparent that he's doing what he's doing for rather the thinnest and underdeveloped of reasons. Instead of the reasons the movie pretended to develop, which Bane himself had already revealed to be a ruse.

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Old 11-18-2012, 11:35 PM   #98
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Three things that should have been handled better in TDKR:

1. Relationship between Bruce and Miranda. Doesn't feel like there is enough development for a believable romance.

2. Blake confronting Bruce about his Batman identity. This scene should have been cut. Would have made the ending more powerful.

3. The scene where Alfred gives a bunch of exposition about Bane and Bruce puts on the magic knee brace. This is the worst scene in the film. Bad exposition (how the hell does Alfred know about the pit and so forth?) plus a bad excuse for Bruce's knee being healed.


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Old 11-18-2012, 11:36 PM   #99
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I think it could certainly be inferred from the film that Bane wants Bruce to suffer because he represents everything he hates. A man born with nothing vs. a man with a silver spoon. Bruce is given the opportunity to be at Ra's side, something Bane rightfully deserved having saved his daughter, but he's instead cast out. Why? Because he's a monster from hell. Ra's chose the Prince of Gotham over him...only for the Prince of Gotham to turn his back on the League and spit in the face of everything they stood for.

I completely agree with those who have said Bane wanted to succeed where Ra's failed, for these reasons. Couple that with an unwavering loyalty and love for Talia, and you pretty much have Bane's character. It's very much a brotherly battle between Batman and Bane, where Ra's is the father figure. Bruce represents the good aspects of Ra's taken to the extreme, Bane represents the worst aspects of him taken to the extreme.

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Old 11-18-2012, 11:42 PM   #100
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

- maybe re-record Bale's Batman voice.

- add music to the armor truck chase in TDK, the scene is suspenseful but Zimmer's music adds more energy to it.

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