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Old 11-17-2012, 02:11 PM   #51
American Maid
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

I'm going to try copying and pasting from several posts, editing in WordPad before pasting the whole thing back (my suggestion to you, Jon, for future posts). We'll lose the links tht they Hype puts in, but it's so hard to capture evereything with the multiquote and then editing around the tags.

I said:
Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I wonder if Thor will be asked to make some moral sacrifice so as to free Jane from the malevolent spirit.
and elizah said:
Quote:
Maybe, but take a look at this quote and replace America and country with Asgard, and you will understand more where I am coming from, as to this Moral Sacrifice theme...

Quote:
The moral sacrifice means one must place the “good” and the “bad” on the same moral plane, thus devaluing the “good” and giving undue legitimacy to the “bad.” Man is asked to defend and support his country even when one’s government is acting immorally, i.e. violating individual rights. No reason is given for why man should support his country under such circumstances beyond that it is his country. This is not patriotism. This is nationalism.
Ah! Now I feel like I'm starting to get a handle on what you mean by moral sacrifice and what you mean by avoiding moral sacrifice. What I read in the above is fidelity to a principle over a political jurisdiction. (Let me know if that's not a correct interpretation, though.)
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
In an earlier discussion, you had talked about going against a principle for the greater good, specifically, the possiblility of Thor having to kill possessed-Jane if the malevolent spirit turned out to be a great threat. So earlier I had thought maybe that was what you were referring to.
I do enjoy films having (a) philosophical theme(s) informing the action in the foreground, and this is pretty meaty material. So I like it a lot. I also think it fits well with how Thor regards the non-Asgard realms in relation to Asgard.

Edit: (forgot to say this earlier) Films sometimes have the theme both writ large and writ small. So they could have more than one moral sacrifice show up. But the grand one is the one you want to have, if you can have only one.

elizah said:
Quote:
Marvel Freshman I think said something about maybe Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard.... so a dimentional rift maybe, that transforms Midgard?
My understanding was that he was saying that the two realms influenced each other, rather than a dimensional rift. But perhaps I had the wrong understanding.

elizah said:
Quote:
I'll have to get back to you later on the other stuff. I'm not sure I agree on everything you have down there but I'd like to think on it some more.
My intent was to summarize ideas put forward by you, Jon(Aqua), and everyone else. (Just don't want to overstate my part )

elizah said:
Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
And We still haven't sorted out how Malekith might transform Kurse, if that is the case, and why he doesn't do it sooner against Thor.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I don't know that we were thinking strongly that Malekith would transform him. We thought it would be something more powerful. So maybe Surtur intervenes directly or indirectly, was Jon(Aqua)'s idea.


elizah said:
Quote:
Odin dies, he takes Surtur out by sacrificing himself (I think something similar in the comics, right?)
As I recall from plot summaries, they both go into some sort of dimensional rift and are presumed dead.

Thereafter the Asgardians call an Althing to elect a new ruler. Loki is angling to line up enough votes for himself. Wht I quote froom you below could be consistent with that.
elizah said:
Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

and if Thor is fighting the Elves on Midgard, and either Thor doesn't get back in time, or gets back to Asgard just as Odin and Surtur have their final battle and a bit late to try to stop Odin dying, then Odin will not be the one judging him. It will be the other Asgardians. And see "moral sacrifice" and patriotism etc. that I quoted up there again. If that is the way the Asgardians think, then they could conceivably shun Thor for deserting Asgard in its greatest time of need, and the death of Odin.
elizah said:
Quote:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Certainly that is a heavy weight for Thor to carry going into Avengers 2 where I believe Joss said he would be getting more personal and twisting a few knives with the characters there. And it would give a very plausible reason for Thor to be hanging out on Earth, shunned and blaming himself for what happened to Odin, (though maybe someone will tell him to read the comics, it happens that way anyway. lol). And of course that could potentially set up Loki on the throne of Asgard for Avengers 2 and maybe even Thor 3. Because he is already recognized as an heir to the throne of Asgard, no matter what he's done, and enough other Asgardians may agree that he has a right to that, (as has happened many times in our own history with monarchies). Some Asgardians may even agree with what he tried to do in Thor 1 to the Jotuns (they all dont necessarily know his true parentage, and they are the "monsters parents tell their children about at night"). Who knows, but it certainly sets up an interesting scenario for both Thor and Loki and completely turns their previous dynamic on it's head. Even if Loki goes in to leadership this time with some good intentions, you know it wont' be long before mischief and mayhem make an appearance.
I agree about these things weighing heavily on Thor. ANd it would be some interesting twists for the future films you mention!


Last edited by American Maid; 11-17-2012 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #52
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Missed this bit in my earlier respopnse:
I said:
Quote:
Actually, I would think that they would regard it as in their global security interest to have this technology, rather than rely on other races to provide the access (or take it away) whenever they deign to do so. Studying it also would enable the development of better defenses against future incursions into Earth's airspace, as it were.
and elizah said:
Quote:
Maybe, not out of the question, I just dont find it very wise of them. Better to keep those doors closed, never know when a highly PO demi-god might shoot out of it and mayhem ensues...
What is wise for characters to do and what is consistent with their motivations are two different things. Also, I submit to you that avoiding portal research will do nothing to prevent future invasions from other worlds. Earth cannot control the actions of others. They can only do the best they can with what they have.

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Old 11-17-2012, 02:51 PM   #53
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I'm going to try to do this by bolding the stuff I'm replying to...
That was fairly readable, although I suspect composing this reply will be a bit more challenging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

I summarized:
Quote:
The assault at Bourne Woods presumably is unsuccessful, thwarted by Thor, Sif, Warriors Three, and various other Asgardians.
elizah replied:
Quote:
Don't know yet. The videos I watched made it seem like they were being overpowered, so they may lose ground. My thought is that if it's Hela's army they may be triumphant in the outskirts, making their way to Odin's palace and surrounding it.
While I am really jazzed by this idea (not what you expect from mighty Asgardians), logistically it might not fit. If Hela is able to march too quickly on Asgard City, Asgard could fall before we get around to Algrim, Kurse, etc.

I summarized:
Quote:
Hela sees this as a chance to gather more souls. Malekith sees this as a moment of power vacuum, with Odin's power waning. Surtur sees this as a chance to get back at Odin for the clash they had millenia ago.
elizah replied:
Quote:
Probably if Surtur is in it. I might add to Malekith's motivations may be linked to being "vengeful" over whoever messed him to to be half dead (or whatever).
That's true. I had forgotten about that aspect.

elizah continued:
Quote:
If it's more of a vendetta against Thor, than Odin, then that could be why he goes for Jane and Midgard.
But why would Malekith even know who the heck Jane is? He has to go out of his way to nab her ono Midgard (less of an inconvenience if she is in Asgard).

This is (one of the reasons why) it makes more sense to me to have her continue the portal research. That's something everyone is interested in. So the dark elves could be coming after her because of her portal knowledge, not knowing that she has even met Thor. Thor would be on the scene when the elves make their move (because, as you point out, Heimdall sees all). And Thor could perhaps betray that there is something sincere between them (probably a little more than a crush, for this to be relevant two years after the events of Thor1, but certainly not love) by his reaction should the elves grab her. And then Malekith could be like, "Oh really? Is that how it is? So much the better!"

elizah said:
Quote:
But we know there will be at least one Adewale x Renee x Anthony scene, per the actor, so hm... it could be a past scene showing how Malekith got messed up, and could still be Thor that does it but mom and dad come in to stop Malekith from killing him. (YAY to the idea of some young Thor and/or Loki flashbacks!)
I'm a little cool to this staging, since the first thing that came to mind was Harry Potter as a baby.

elizah asked:
Quote:
Come to think of it, where does Frigga likely go if she dies early in the film? Valhallah or Hel?
Complicated question: in myth, doesn't die. By the rules in the books, probably Hel. But the loophole is that Odin chooses who goes to Valhalla. So she could go anywhere the writers need her to be

I kind of feel that wherever she goes, Thor & Co. are not likely to cross paths with her later in the film.

Edit: I forgot one plot element we had previously discussed: After Kurse kills Malekith, Thor successfully persuades him to lead the dark elves into an era of peace with Asgard.

I said:
Quote:
Perhaps Thor decides not to live in Asgard at the end of the film. (Avengers Tower is an obvious housing choice.)
elizah said:
Quote:
Yup. Other than the frequent loud parties and frequent alien attacks, I bet it's like paradise!
It's probably Thor throwing the loud parties. Drinking, and smashing glasses and so forth. . .


Last edited by American Maid; 11-17-2012 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 04:21 PM   #54
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Ah! Now I feel like I'm starting to get a handle on what you mean by moral sacrifice and what you mean by avoiding moral sacrifice. What I read in the above is fidelity to a principle over a political jurisdiction. (Let me know if that's not a correct interpretation, though.)
Correct.

Quote:
Edit: (forgot to say this earlier) Films sometimes have the theme both writ large and writ small. So they could have more than one moral sacrifice show up. But the grand one is the one you want to have, if you can have only one.
absolutely could be more than one, from more than one character.

Quote:
My understanding was that he was saying that the two realms influenced each other, rather than a dimensional rift. But perhaps I had the wrong understanding.
could be I was misunderstanding, but the idea that I was thinking I think is very interesting, and with some cool effects. But who knows if that's actually it.

Kurse:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I don't know that we were thinking strongly that Malekith would transform him. We thought it would be something more powerful. So maybe Surtur intervenes directly or indirectly, was Jon(Aqua)'s idea.


I don't know, maybe he helps him out when he starts loosing the battle. But I think they will be fighting on two different realms at this point. Could be Malekith has found another way.

Okay, so here is my take on everything at the moment, and this could change certainly as stuff comes out, and I warn you AM, you may not entirely like the Jane part of this especially, but I think it's all plausible....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As you said (and I was thinking about this just as you were typing the other reply you had, how funny! lol) maybe the portal thing and the Elves being interested in Earth's growing tech is why they are there and trying to get Jane, so I'm going with that idea.

and this is just really my personal speculation, people, based on a few spoilers and what happens in the comics. So... no guarantees...

Jane is on Earth doing research into portals with Erik and maybe Darcy is there too.

Malekith has Elves on Earth in human form keeping an eye on things, in particular things related to making portals.

Malekith learns that Jane and Erik are close to or now able to do this, and he decides to send someone in to kidnap Jane and/or Erik and maybe Darcy gets mixed up in this as well.

Heimdall has his work cut out for him keeping an eye on the realms right now, but he promised Thor to keep an eye on Jane and so he tries to do that some too. He sees something is going on, and Jane may be in danger from the Dark Elves. Thor finds out and gets Odin to send him down again to help (maybe Odin doesnt want them to have that power either, so that's a reason for Odin to do that). Thor goes down and retrieves Jane at least bringing her back to Asgard for safety, and maybe Erik and Darcy tag along as well for some reason.

Asgard (Nornheim) is attacked by Hela's army

Thor goes off to fight in Nornheim with the Warriors 3 and Sif.

In the meantime, Loki is in prison, Frigga talks to Loki and seems to get through to him some that his family does love him, frost giant or not.

Thor and the Asgardians have a hard time, A LOT of losses. they have to pull back. Odin uses the Odinforce to *cough McGuffin cough* put up some kind of forcefield up or keep them back from invading the heart of Asgard. But this temporary and takes A LOT out of him. THis is the reason why he can do very little else and is not really being mentioned in spoilers. And the reason he cant travel to Valhallah. He tells Thor to go make nice with his brother who knows how to get to Valhallah with his magic because there is no way for him to do that right now.

Loki seeing he might have an opportunity to get out of trouble faster and agrees. Jane and co possibly go along with them.

Loki and Thor make nice some on their excursion. Thor and Jane get to know each other a bit and he seems to be more in love with her. They get reinforcements with the dead Valallah warriors and are on their way back to Odin's palace.

Odin is weakening. Surtur and Hela know this.

On the way back (and this is the part that you won't like AM). it is revealed that one of the 3 humans, is not a human at all but a Dark Elf. I am going with Jane as that would be the biggest knife twist. It goes along with the Lorelei storyline, and also goes along with the possession by something associated with the Dark Elves spoiler. Thor would be heartbroken and it would also be revealed in the course of this that Malekith has Jane (and possibly the other two if they all are Dark Elves) and that Malekith is planning to have them build a portal from Svartalfheim to Midgard in order to have his army come and take over Midgard. Thor is furious and upset, etc etc... Loki and probably Warriors 3 are with them they all have the reinforcement army, so Thor believes he can go to Midgard and protect Midgard and save Jane. He asks Loki to send him to Midgard, after some argument about where he is needed more (would be good if this was more from Sif and the Warriors 3 than Loki)... after a bit Loki agrees to do this for his brother, as a sort of peace offering, or to get him out of the way whichever you prefer.

Hela's ship rams through Odin's barrier and into the palace and her army invades. Surtur also shows up and destroys stuff.

Thor lands on Earth and starts having a big smackdown with Malekith.

Loki Sif, etc, and the army all arrive at Odin's palace and start fighting. Odin and Loki have a moment of reconciliation when he realizes that Loki is there and Thor is not. At some point in this we have that iconic moment that jaqua99 mentioned before, but as I pictured it earlier with cuts between the Odin, then Thor on Earth, then Loki.

Thor and Malekith go at it, at some point Malekith gets desperate and is losing. Surtur steps in and makes one of his warriors into Kurse to battle Thor. Surtur then appears at Odin's palace and at some point and starts fighting Odin specifically. Frigga is still alive possibly in this scenario and is battling Hela.

Thor vs Kurse... nuff said. The real Jane and co are saved, Earth is saved. Malekith is killed, Kurse or more likely I think back to Algrim becomes the new leader of the elves, and peaceful now. All is ok on earth. Jane opens a portal for Thor to get back to Asgard to help there.

Odin and Surtur take each other out. Loki is upset. Thor gets back too late and blames himself. But they still have Hela to deal with, this is where Hela possibly kills Frigga, with a new rage in both of them, for their father's death "For Odin" (as Jaimie Alexander hashtagged not long ago, interestingly #ForOdin... ) They find a new fire in them and they beat her and her armies butts back to Niffleheim with the culmination being the big Icelantic battle which is set on Niffleheim.(again I'm guessing that the report that Loki and Thor were on different sides there, might have been assumed incorrectly).

Hela wont mess with them again, or will she?

in the end, the Asgardians have more respect for Loki for being there when he was needed most, and lost respect for Thor for going to Midgard, and Thor blames himself for Odin's death as well. So in the end we wind up with Thor going back to Earth, very upset and in turmoil, maybe with Jane, maybe not, and we have potentially Loki on the throne of Asgard for future films.

Adding: and of course the end could easily be changed to Thor gets back in time, and doesn't lose any Asgardian respect, and is given the throne, but I just think it's more interesting the other way for future films. LOL For one thing, like I said, it's an excuse to have him on Earth for Avengers 2.

I am having trouble fitting in Frigga's death here, as you may have guessed, I thought it might be cool to have Frigga fighting Hela at some point, either with her dying right after Odin's death or earlier in the film to give Loki added reason to go along with Thor, but it's tricking fitting it all in. and of course there is the worry if she winds up on Valhalla or Hel and them seeing her again, etc. And maybe it is only Odin that is dying not Frigga, and that spoiler was a mislead by the studio. Dont know yet. Like I said this is A LOT of guessing!

Alternately, Jane and co stay behind during Thor and Loki's trek to Valhallah and Dark Elf Jane kills Frigga when Frigga catches onto what she is. Thor gets back with Loki etc with reinforcements, and finds Frigga dead or dying, and they get the elf and they find out what Malekith is up to and goes to defend Midgard then (and also get further revenge on Malekith for Frigga), and again Loki helps him get back to Midgard. SO there's another scenario...

adding: as for Tyr, like I said maybe he's Hela's right hand man (pun intended )

adding: at some point there possibly is a flashback involving Algrim, Malekith, Odin and Frigga, that shows why Malekith is so vengeful, possibly Thor or Odin caused his half dead status in the past.


edit: I've added a few points to that last spoiler button towards the end that some might not have seen earlier.

Also, if anyone wants to take what I have here copy/paste into another post and rework what's there to fit in with what you think then feel free.


Last edited by elizah72; 11-17-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 11-17-2012, 06:01 PM   #55
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Quote:
Okay, so here is my take on everything at the moment, and this could change certainly as stuff comes out, and I warn you AM, you may not entirely like the Jane part of this especially, but I think it's all plausible....
It all hangs together pretty solidly overall (I point out a few holes), and it's actually not a bad treatment of Jane, either. I have one primary point of disappointment, as you'll see/could guess, but overall not bad.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Quotes, of course, are all from elizah.
Quote:
As you said (and I was thinking about this just as you were typing the other reply you had, how funny! lol) maybe the portal thing and the Elves being interested in Earth's growing tech is why they are there and trying to get Jane, so I'm going with that idea.
Well, it seems like all too neat and tidy of a coincidence for the elves to be going for Jane as Thor's love interest, since she probably didn't list that among her recognitions on her CV or anything Especially since they aren't exactly an item at this point.

Quote:
Jane is on Earth doing research into portals with Erik and maybe Darcy is there too.
Well, Kat Dennings thanked Thor: The Dark World for letting her be in it (in a tweet). So she's in it, and in Jane's lab is the most logical place for her to be.

Quote:
Heimdall has his work cut out for him keeping an eye on the realms right now, but he promised Thor to keep an eye on Jane and so he tries to do that some too. He sees something is going on, and Jane may be in danger from the Dark Elves. Thor finds out and gets Odin to send him down again to help (maybe Odin doesnt want them to have that power either, so that's a reason for Odin to do that). Thor goes down and retrieves Jane at least bringing her back to Asgard for safety, and maybe Erik and Darcy tag along as well for some reason.
So to make sure I understand, Thor brings back the doppelganger Jane, as well as (possibly) Erik and Darcy.

Quote:
Thor and the Asgardians have a hard time, A LOT of losses. they have to pull back. Odin uses the Odinforce to *cough McGuffin cough* put up some kind of forcefield up or keep them back from invading the heart of Asgard. But this temporary and takes A LOT out of him. THis is the reason why he can do very little else and is not really being mentioned in spoilers. And the reason he cant travel to Valhallah. He tells Thor to go make nice with his brother who knows how to get to Valhallah with his magic because there is no way for him to do that right now.
Loki's magic will bypass Odin's force field? Possible weakness: might the bad guys' magic do the same?

Quote:
On the way back [from Valhalla] (and this is the part that you won't like AM). it is revealed that one of the 3 humans, is not a human at all but a Dark Elf. I am going with Jane as that would be the biggest knife twist.
Certainly. It wouldn't be Darcy, because she really doesn't know all that much about portals. Gap: you'll need to explain why there isn't an Erik doppelganger (unless they both are!!) (or unless Darcy and Erik aren't there)

Quote:
(and this is the part that you won't like AM).
It's not that I never want Jane to be imperiled. It's that I want her to be relevant to the story in a way that is not a gigantic boring cliche, and that whatever befalls her (such as being written out of the story), she doesn't get used as an object and is instead treated like an actual character. For example, in the books, she gets plopped into this marriage with this basically random guy (Keith Kinkaid). Later, her little family is just written out because that's what the writers need, not that that's consistent with her character. She drops them. Divorces him, loses custody of their son. Not really consistent with her as a character and rather undignified.

The strength of what you have here is that she is contributing to the story in a way that is something other than quaking and crying, "Oh, help me! Help me, Thor!" (Where is that puking emoticon? Oh, here we are: ) She's still doing her research. And what puts her in the most danger is not the fact that Thor kissed her hand, but rather what is in her head. (And Thor not seeing her in the future will not keep her any safer.)

Here's the quote from Feige to which I referred a while back, with the know/like/love questions: "Well itís sort of the crux of the whole sequel and itís what Hemsworth is most excited about diving into, and itís what is the heart of story; itís Thor and Jane, to continue that dynamic. Really they were only together for three days, and do they love each other? Do they like each other? Do they know each other? Weíre acknowledging that that love story in the first movie was sort of a quick crush, essentially, over the course of three quick days in the middle of the desert."

On this area, your outline is a mixed bag. Thor spends time with doppelganger Jane, and thinks he knows her better, but actually it turns out he doesn't know real Jane at all. I think the bafflement that would come out of that head-fake is a strength of what you have. A frustrating aspect is that the characters make almost no actual progress in this area. So that's a down side.

The weakness of Jane's arc from my point of view is that she still winds up as the damsel-in-distress. That's a bit annoying.

You are right in that it would fit with the Lawden spoiler about being possessed.

Poor Thor apparently is never going to not fall for that [an illusion].

BTW, here is a random bit of trivia that works well with your plot line: "In Norse mythology, a vardÝger is a ghostly double who precedes a living person and is seen performing his actions in advance." (Wikipedia entry on doppelgaenger)

Quote:
Thor . . .asks Loki to send him to Midgard, after some argument about where he is needed more (would be good if this was more from Sif and the Warriors 3 than Loki)... after a bit Loki agrees to do this for his brother, as a sort of peace offering, or to get him out of the way whichever you prefer.
Now, here is a subtle bit that probably won't immediately be obvious, but is important for the Thor-Loki relationship. Thor is obviously fooled by the illusion. (It's probably tidier if you have all 3 humans be doppelgangers. Otherwise, Darcy and Erik know Jane very well and risk exposing the ruse before the plot is ready for it to be exposed or else they'll have to carry the idiot ball). BUT: Loki is a master of illusions and likely was *never* fooled. And he never told his brother. He let Thor be led along by all this. His family, one of the few people who cares for him. And after all this effort Thor has gone through to make nice, to try to help him back to reconciliation, to find the good in him, this is how he repays him. Wow.

Quote:
. . . Thor and Malekith go at it, at some point Malekith gets desperate and is losing. Surtur steps in and makes one of his warriors into Kurse to battle Thor. Surtur then appears at Odin's palace and at some point and starts fighting Odin specifically.
I have the impression that in the book, Algrim is turned to Kurse, and there's an interim act before Kurse and Thor face each other. This is a different pacing, but it might work fine. Lots of action you have going on here!

Oh, it occurs to me that the photo we saw where Malekith is holding his arms up with the bright light might be where he drops the trap door and sends Thor and Algrim down to the lava.

Quote:
Frigga is still alive possibly in this scenario and is battling Hela.
You'll have to give her a lot of powers, of course. Hela's supposed to be able to hold her own against Thor, at least for a little while, so that's a big power-up for Frigga. So this could be tricky to pull off. In myth she has the cloak of falcon feathers, so she can fly. But I don't know what other powers she has off the top of my head.

Quote:
Jane opens a portal for Thor to get back to Asgard to help there.
That's a nice touch! Thanks.

Quote:
in the end, the Asgardians have more respect for Loki for being there when he was needed most, and lost respect for Thor for going to Midgard, and Thor blames himself for Odin's death as well. So in the end we wind up with Thor going back to Earth, very upset and in turmoil, maybe with Jane, maybe not, and we have potentially Loki on the throne of Asgard for future films.
Assuming Loki has the votes (I think you should convene an Althing) Would Thor speak to the Althing about how Loki allowed him to be fooled by dark elves? He would have to undermine his brother, but it's relevant to the Asgardians' votes. Which is the lesser wrong?

Quote:
I am having trouble fitting in Frigga's death here, as you may have guessed, I thought it might be cool to have Frigga fighting Hela at some point, either right after Odin's death or earlier in the film to give Loki added reason to go along with Thor, but it's tricking fitting it all in. and of course there is the worry if she winds up on Valhalla or Hel and them seeing her again, etc
Well, Frigga would have to be powered up considerably from her book self, and even up from where she was in Thor1 (if she could take on Hela, surely she could have dispatched both Frost Giants, and not just one). So that's problematic.

If you don't have her countering Hela, then you have Hela running around unopposed.

It's a pretty prominent role for Hela, more than we've been led to believe. So that's switching among a lot of villains.

What about this alternative: save Surtur for Thor3, have Odin confront Hela. This doesn't manuever Loki onto the throne, but may make various aspects more manageable. Of course, he could probably dispatch her pretty quickly, even if he is weak from having done this force field thing.

Quote:
Alternately, Jane and co stay behind during Thor and Loki's trek to Valhallah and Dark Elf Jane kills Frigga when Frigga catches onto what she is. Thor gets back with Loki etc with reinforcements, and finds Frigga dead or dying, and they get the elf and they find out what Malekith is up to and goes to defend Midgard then (and also get further revenge on Malekith for Frigga), and again Loki helps him get back to Midgard. SO there's another scenario...
Yeah, I had thought about the doppelganger Jane killing Frigga. Awk-ward. I think that may put Thor up against Algrim/Kurse at the wrong time, though.

Overall, the biggest hole I think is Frigga being so powerful.


Overall very creative!!

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Old 11-17-2012, 06:36 PM   #56
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
It all hangs together pretty solidly overall (I point out a few holes), and it's actually not a bad treatment of Jane, either. I have one primary point of disappointment, as you'll see/could guess, but overall not bad.
Thanks!

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
So to make sure I understand, Thor brings back the doppelganger Jane, as well as (possibly) Erik and Darcy.
Yes.

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Loki's magic will bypass Odin's force field? Possible weakness: might the bad guys' magic do the same?
I think there will be holes to question, for instance how does Thor come out of the sky and happen to land right on top of the jet that's holding Loki in Avengers? Hm? *shrugs*

maybe Odin allows Loki to do this, but keeps the other magic at bay. If Odin isnt doing something during all of this, then that's a pretty big hole in the plot.


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Gap: you'll need to explain why there isn't an Erik doppelganger (unless they both are!!) (or unless Darcy and Erik aren't there)
could be. I dont have all the answers!

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On this area, your outline is a mixed bag. Thor spends time with doppelganger Jane, and thinks he knows her better, but actually it turns out he doesn't know real Jane at all. I think the bafflement that would come out of that head-fake is a strength of what you have. A frustrating aspect is that the characters make almost no actual progress in this area. So that's a down side.
Yup. I see that, but I think the headfake thing, as you put it, is pure gold for keeping things interesting. And then it can either grow from there while he's in self exile down on Midgard, spending time with her, or they could go their separate ways.

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The weakness of Jane's arc from my point of view is that she still winds up as the damsel-in-distress. That's a bit annoying.
When you are the superhero's love interest, you're going to wind up the damsel in distress. It's just the way it is. It keeps things interesting and the love interest character involved. Now if it can be accomplished without making the woman (or man) a pitiful and useless character, then that's where the story and characterizations get better. I think what I propose does that. And come to think of it, Jane has her own "Moral Sacrifice" to deal with potentially by making this portal for Malekith, so maybe she does so in order to save her friends who are being threatened, and hoping that someone can stop Malekith's army.

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Now, here is a subtle bit that probably won't immediately be obvious, but is important for the Thor-Loki relationship. Thor is obviously fooled by the illusion. (It's probably tidier if you have all 3 humans be doppelgangers. Otherwise, Darcy and Erik know Jane very well and risk exposing the ruse before the plot is ready for it to be exposed or else they'll have to carry the idiot ball). BUT: Loki is a master of illusions and likely was *never* fooled. And he never told his brother. He let Thor be led along by all this. His family, one of the few people who cares for him. And after all this effort Thor has gone through to make nice, to try to help him back to reconciliation, to find the good in him, this is how he repays him. Wow.
I see what you are saying but under that same idea, then Odin would not be fooled either. And another point, Loki was fooled by Odin's illusion cast his whole life over Loki's own personal body, to make him look Asgardian. So... that theory that Loki would not be fooled by an illusion, really doesn't stand up.

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I have the impression that in the book, Algrim is turned to Kurse, and there's an interim act before Kurse and Thor face each other. This is a different pacing, but it might work fine. Lots of action you have going on here!
Yup! Action packed!

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Oh, it occurs to me that the photo we saw where Malekith is holding his arms up with the bright light might be where he drops the trap door and sends Thor and Algrim down to the lava.
GOOD IDEA! I was trying to fit that in somewhere. Good stuff.

Hela vs Frigga, yeah I know probably won't work, but Hela could still kill Frigga, or the Dark Elf, either way.

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Assuming Loki has the votes (I think you should convene an Althing) Would Thor speak to the Althing about how Loki allowed him to be fooled by dark elves? He would have to undermine his brother, but it's relevant to the Asgardians' votes. Which is the lesser wrong?
I dont think the General Audience will get the Althing thing, and it might be a bit of a drag to put that sort of thing in at the end, after all the excitement of the big fights and such. Notice they wrapped up pretty quickly after the big fights in Avengers 1 and Thor 1. I think just showing Loki being made king, because again, he is an heir, and is seen as having a right to that throne, and he stood by Asgard when they needed him, so the Asgardians now support him. (and again maybe some agree with what he tried to do to Jotunheim). and then showing Thor on Earth looking in turmoil, maybe with Jane, maybe not, at the end and then end credits. Bit of a cliffhanger there too, I suppose..

and again, I think Loki will be fooled with the rest of them.

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If you don't have her countering Hela, then you have Hela running around unopposed.
It's a pretty prominent role for Hela, more than we've been led to believe. So that's switching among a lot of villains
That is a problem, but again Tyr. If she's actually back on Niffleheim, leading from her throne, and Tyr is her right hand man doing her dirty work in the field, then that could solve that issue some.

Like I said, this will be adjusted!!

I also haven't worked in any Hela - Loki interaction this way, but maybe save for Thor 3.

I also haven't worked in the Stonehendge stuff, or Alfheim... shoot.

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What about this alternative: save Surtur for Thor3, have Odin confront Hela. This doesn't manuever Loki onto the throne, but may make various aspects more manageable. Of course, he could probably dispatch her pretty quickly, even if he is weak from having done this force field thing.
Maybe, it's a lot to get in there with Surtur too, I suppose if she's manipulating things for a distance, she could also be hanging back and may be able to help turn Algrim into Kurse, if she has that power, but I dont know. I'm sticking with what I have down for Surtur at the moment.


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Overall very creative!!
thanks!


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Old 11-17-2012, 08:44 PM   #57
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I think there will be holes to question, for instance how does Thor come out of the sky and happen to land right on top of the jet that's holding Loki in Avengers? Hm? *shrugs*
I think what you are trying to say is "the actual films leave some questions unanswered" as opposed to "I also need to address how Odin got Thor down to Earth in the previous film."

Running with the fomer interpretation, I would say that is true, but it needs to be minor enough that people don't pop out of the frame of the movie and say, "No way!!"
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


I said:
Quote:
A frustrating aspect is that the characters make almost no actual progress in this area. So that's a down side.
elizah said:
Quote:
Yup. I see that, but I think the headfake thing, as you put it, is pure gold for keeping things interesting. And then it can either grow from there while he's in self exile down on Midgard, spending time with her, or they could go their separate ways.
I agree!

Quote:
When you are the superhero's love interest, you're going to wind up the damsel in distress. It's just the way it is. It keeps things interesting and the love interest character involved. Now if it can be accomplished without making the woman (or man) a pitiful and useless character, then that's where the story and characterizations get better. I think what I propose does that.
I agree; there usually are parts to supporting characters, especially love interests, that could be improved. The best you can hope for is that it's not totally ridiculous. I also agree that what you propose accomplishes the plot advancement without making the character pitiful.

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And come to think of it, Jane has her own "Moral Sacrifice" to deal with potentially by making this portal for Malekith, so maybe she does so in order to save her friends who are being threatened, and hoping that someone can stop Malekith's army.
Indeed. Yeah, after I submitted my post, it occurred to me that Malekith isn't going to be standing around, rubbing his hands together saying "Muhahahah!" waiting for Thor to get back from Valhalla. There'd be the whole agenda of "Okay, now you are going to build us a portal."

She could also potentially build a portal that traps/destroys the army. Is she prepared to be that brutal?

I said:
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Loki is a master of illusions and likely was *never* fooled. And he never told his brother.
elizah said:
Quote:
I see what you are saying but under that same idea, then Odin would not be fooled either. And another point, Loki was fooled by Odin's illusion cast his whole life over Loki's own personal body, to make him look Asgardian. So... that theory that Loki would not be fooled by an illusion, really doesn't stand up.
Well, what you bring up about Odin is kind of a big hole. He certainly wouldn't be fooled, and doppelganger-Jane would be hanging around long enough for him to have a chance to evaluate her. They really had a challenge with this script (as did you), hitting all these plot points with the obstacle of Odin being so superlative in so many ways that he could thwart all the twists in the story! So when we finally see the film, I'm sure this aspect will be in itself amazing.

But you basically are saying that Malekith is a better illusionist than Loki (unless it's someone other than Malekith putting the illusions on the doppelgangers). I don't have a strong sense of their relative powers--maybe someone else can weigh in--but this strikes me as surprising. The Marvel page doesn't compare the two directly, though it does say that Loki's sorcery powers are equal to that of Karnilla, who is the most skilled sorceress of the Nine Realms. That implies that Loki is better than Malekith. So it's not as clear to me that he would indeed be fooled by this illusion on the dark elves.

<the Althing>

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I dont think the General Audience will get the Althing thing, and it might be a bit of a drag to put that sort of thing in at the end, after all the excitement of the big fights and such.
That's fair.

Quote:
I also haven't worked in the Stonehendge stuff, or Alfheim... shoot.
Oh yeah. . .keep forgetting abou that!


Lots of fun ideas!

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:41 PM   #58
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
By the way those couple of videos on the main spoiler thread today with Malekith...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
with his arms raised and lights and the big light behind him and such... really making me wonder about Marvel Freshman's idea about Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard (like a dimentional rift maybe or something, not just a worm hole). It could definitely be just him transforming Kurse, however that happens, but clearly something BIG is going on there, with all the cameras going around him as he raises his arms, and the lights. Hmmm...

And We still haven't sorted out how Malekith might transform Kurse, if that is the case, and why he doesn't do it sooner against Thor.




OH! I got a BINGO! In capital letters, no less! Yay me!!!

I think we have to separate what we want to happen and what certain clues seem to be pointing to happening if we want to get anywhere near the truth.



that could certainly be too. But again if...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Odin dies, he takes Surtur out by sacrificing himself (I think something similar in the comics, right?) and if Thor is fighting the Elves on Midgard, and either Thor doesn't get back in time, or gets back to Asgard just as Odin and Surtur have their final battle and a bit late to try to stop Odin dying, then Odin will not be the one judging him. It will be the other Asgardians. And see "moral sacrifice" and patriotism etc. that I quoted up there again. If that is the way the Asgardians think, then they could conceivably shun Thor for deserting Asgard in its greatest time of need, and the death of Odin. Certainly that is a heavy weight for Thor to carry going into Avengers 2 where I believe Joss said he would be getting more personal and twisting a few knives with the characters there. And it would give a very plausible reason for Thor to be hanging out on Earth, shunned and blaming himself for what happened to Odin, (though maybe someone will tell him to read the comics, it happens that way anyway. lol). And of course that could potentially set up Loki on the throne of Asgard for Avengers 2 and maybe even Thor 3. Because he is already recognized as an heir to the throne of Asgard, no matter what he's done, and enough other Asgardians may agree that he has a right to that, (as has happened many times in our own history with monarchies). Some Asgardians may even agree with what he tried to do in Thor 1 to the Jotuns (they all dont necessarily know his true parentage, and they are the "monsters parents tell their children about at night"). Who knows, but it certainly sets up an interesting scenario for both Thor and Loki and completely turns their previous dynamic on it's head. Even if Loki goes in to leadership this time with some good intentions, you know it wont' be long before mischief and mayhem make an appearance.




I might be coming around to believing that finally. it's a lot to put in there though, and I'm a bit concerned you and some others will be disappointed if he's left up to say the very end of the movie for like 5 minutes tops.

Just wanna adress these first
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Wait, so you think this Thor franchise is going to end with Loki on the throne instead of Thor???? We already got a lot of forshadowing that thor will eventually be king. Plus having thor have the throne makes sense if and when the avengers and who ever else fight thanos with the IG. Thor may have the Odinforce if it is involved..allowing him to be more powerful to fight Thanos.

Also, I don't know if Surtur will be aluded to, have a role, or the the after credit villain. Personally I think he will just be alluded to. then be in the after credit scene. Maybe the end of the movie could end with him, idk. I would be thrilled to see either. I am just going by what the synopsis sounds like, and it sounds like this villain will probaby be in the movie, ya know? Even though there have been no signs of him on set, whoever said villain is, and nothing has been casted, the synopsis makes it clear that this villain will be crucial to the plot. So maybe he will be in the movie, maybe just the after credit. All I Know is that to me, the synopsis made it sound like this villain will be a part of the movie. It sounded like Surtur. That's my stance on that. I'd be thrilled just to see him, even if it is the last 35 min of the movie

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Old 11-17-2012, 11:08 PM   #59
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
By the way those couple of videos on the main spoiler thread today with Malekith...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
with his arms raised and lights and the big light behind him and such... really making me wonder about Marvel Freshman's idea about Svartalfheim was bleeding into Midgard (like a dimentional rift maybe or something, not just a worm hole). It could definitely be just him transforming Kurse, however that happens, but clearly something BIG is going on there, with all the cameras going around him as he raises his arms, and the lights. Hmmm...

And We still haven't sorted out how Malekith might transform Kurse, if that is the case, and why he doesn't do it sooner against Thor.




OH! I got a BINGO! In capital letters, no less! Yay me!!!

I think we have to separate what we want to happen and what certain clues seem to be pointing to happening if we want to get anywhere near the truth.



that could certainly be too. But again if...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Odin dies, he takes Surtur out by sacrificing himself (I think something similar in the comics, right?) and if Thor is fighting the Elves on Midgard, and either Thor doesn't get back in time, or gets back to Asgard just as Odin and Surtur have their final battle and a bit late to try to stop Odin dying, then Odin will not be the one judging him. It will be the other Asgardians. And see "moral sacrifice" and patriotism etc. that I quoted up there again. If that is the way the Asgardians think, then they could conceivably shun Thor for deserting Asgard in its greatest time of need, and the death of Odin. Certainly that is a heavy weight for Thor to carry going into Avengers 2 where I believe Joss said he would be getting more personal and twisting a few knives with the characters there. And it would give a very plausible reason for Thor to be hanging out on Earth, shunned and blaming himself for what happened to Odin, (though maybe someone will tell him to read the comics, it happens that way anyway. lol). And of course that could potentially set up Loki on the throne of Asgard for Avengers 2 and maybe even Thor 3. Because he is already recognized as an heir to the throne of Asgard, no matter what he's done, and enough other Asgardians may agree that he has a right to that, (as has happened many times in our own history with monarchies). Some Asgardians may even agree with what he tried to do in Thor 1 to the Jotuns (they all dont necessarily know his true parentage, and they are the "monsters parents tell their children about at night"). Who knows, but it certainly sets up an interesting scenario for both Thor and Loki and completely turns their previous dynamic on it's head. Even if Loki goes in to leadership this time with some good intentions, you know it wont' be long before mischief and mayhem make an appearance.




I might be coming around to believing that finally. it's a lot to put in there though, and I'm a bit concerned you and some others will be disappointed if he's left up to say the very end of the movie for like 5 minutes tops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Correct.



absolutely could be more than one, from more than one character.



could be I was misunderstanding, but the idea that I was thinking I think is very interesting, and with some cool effects. But who knows if that's actually it.

Kurse:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I don't know that we were thinking strongly that Malekith would transform him. We thought it would be something more powerful. So maybe Surtur intervenes directly or indirectly, was Jon(Aqua)'s idea.


I don't know, maybe he helps him out when he starts loosing the battle. But I think they will be fighting on two different realms at this point. Could be Malekith has found another way.

Okay, so here is my take on everything at the moment, and this could change certainly as stuff comes out, and I warn you AM, you may not entirely like the Jane part of this especially, but I think it's all plausible....

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
As you said (and I was thinking about this just as you were typing the other reply you had, how funny! lol) maybe the portal thing and the Elves being interested in Earth's growing tech is why they are there and trying to get Jane, so I'm going with that idea.

and this is just really my personal speculation, people, based on a few spoilers and what happens in the comics. So... no guarantees...

Jane is on Earth doing research into portals with Erik and maybe Darcy is there too.

Malekith has Elves on Earth in human form keeping an eye on things, in particular things related to making portals.

Malekith learns that Jane and Erik are close to or now able to do this, and he decides to send someone in to kidnap Jane and/or Erik and maybe Darcy gets mixed up in this as well.

Heimdall has his work cut out for him keeping an eye on the realms right now, but he promised Thor to keep an eye on Jane and so he tries to do that some too. He sees something is going on, and Jane may be in danger from the Dark Elves. Thor finds out and gets Odin to send him down again to help (maybe Odin doesnt want them to have that power either, so that's a reason for Odin to do that). Thor goes down and retrieves Jane at least bringing her back to Asgard for safety, and maybe Erik and Darcy tag along as well for some reason.

Asgard (Nornheim) is attacked by Hela's army

Thor goes off to fight in Nornheim with the Warriors 3 and Sif.

In the meantime, Loki is in prison, Frigga talks to Loki and seems to get through to him some that his family does love him, frost giant or not.

Thor and the Asgardians have a hard time, A LOT of losses. they have to pull back. Odin uses the Odinforce to *cough McGuffin cough* put up some kind of forcefield up or keep them back from invading the heart of Asgard. But this temporary and takes A LOT out of him. THis is the reason why he can do very little else and is not really being mentioned in spoilers. And the reason he cant travel to Valhallah. He tells Thor to go make nice with his brother who knows how to get to Valhallah with his magic because there is no way for him to do that right now.

Loki seeing he might have an opportunity to get out of trouble faster and agrees. Jane and co possibly go along with them.

Loki and Thor make nice some on their excursion. Thor and Jane get to know each other a bit and he seems to be more in love with her. They get reinforcements with the dead Valallah warriors and are on their way back to Odin's palace.

Odin is weakening. Surtur and Hela know this.

On the way back (and this is the part that you won't like AM). it is revealed that one of the 3 humans, is not a human at all but a Dark Elf. I am going with Jane as that would be the biggest knife twist. It goes along with the Lorelei storyline, and also goes along with the possession by something associated with the Dark Elves spoiler. Thor would be heartbroken and it would also be revealed in the course of this that Malekith has Jane (and possibly the other two if they all are Dark Elves) and that Malekith is planning to have them build a portal from Svartalfheim to Midgard in order to have his army come and take over Midgard. Thor is furious and upset, etc etc... Loki and probably Warriors 3 are with them they all have the reinforcement army, so Thor believes he can go to Midgard and protect Midgard and save Jane. He asks Loki to send him to Midgard, after some argument about where he is needed more (would be good if this was more from Sif and the Warriors 3 than Loki)... after a bit Loki agrees to do this for his brother, as a sort of peace offering, or to get him out of the way whichever you prefer.

Hela's ship rams through Odin's barrier and into the palace and her army invades. Surtur also shows up and destroys stuff.

Thor lands on Earth and starts having a big smackdown with Malekith.

Loki Sif, etc, and the army all arrive at Odin's palace and start fighting. Odin and Loki have a moment of reconciliation when he realizes that Loki is there and Thor is not. At some point in this we have that iconic moment that jaqua99 mentioned before, but as I pictured it earlier with cuts between the Odin, then Thor on Earth, then Loki.

Thor and Malekith go at it, at some point Malekith gets desperate and is losing. Surtur steps in and makes one of his warriors into Kurse to battle Thor. Surtur then appears at Odin's palace and at some point and starts fighting Odin specifically. Frigga is still alive possibly in this scenario and is battling Hela.

Thor vs Kurse... nuff said. The real Jane and co are saved, Earth is saved. Malekith is killed, Kurse or more likely I think back to Algrim becomes the new leader of the elves, and peaceful now. All is ok on earth. Jane opens a portal for Thor to get back to Asgard to help there.

Odin and Surtur take each other out. Loki is upset. Thor gets back too late and blames himself. But they still have Hela to deal with, this is where Hela possibly kills Frigga, with a new rage in both of them, for their father's death "For Odin" (as Jaimie Alexander hashtagged not long ago, interestingly #ForOdin... ) They find a new fire in them and they beat her and her armies butts back to Niffleheim with the culmination being the big Icelantic battle which is set on Niffleheim.(again I'm guessing that the report that Loki and Thor were on different sides there, might have been assumed incorrectly).

Hela wont mess with them again, or will she?

in the end, the Asgardians have more respect for Loki for being there when he was needed most, and lost respect for Thor for going to Midgard, and Thor blames himself for Odin's death as well. So in the end we wind up with Thor going back to Earth, very upset and in turmoil, maybe with Jane, maybe not, and we have potentially Loki on the throne of Asgard for future films.

Adding: and of course the end could easily be changed to Thor gets back in time, and doesn't lose any Asgardian respect, and is given the throne, but I just think it's more interesting the other way for future films. LOL For one thing, like I said, it's an excuse to have him on Earth for Avengers 2.

I am having trouble fitting in Frigga's death here, as you may have guessed, I thought it might be cool to have Frigga fighting Hela at some point, either with her dying right after Odin's death or earlier in the film to give Loki added reason to go along with Thor, but it's tricking fitting it all in. and of course there is the worry if she winds up on Valhalla or Hel and them seeing her again, etc. And maybe it is only Odin that is dying not Frigga, and that spoiler was a mislead by the studio. Dont know yet. Like I said this is A LOT of guessing!

Alternately, Jane and co stay behind during Thor and Loki's trek to Valhallah and Dark Elf Jane kills Frigga when Frigga catches onto what she is. Thor gets back with Loki etc with reinforcements, and finds Frigga dead or dying, and they get the elf and they find out what Malekith is up to and goes to defend Midgard then (and also get further revenge on Malekith for Frigga), and again Loki helps him get back to Midgard. SO there's another scenario...

adding: as for Tyr, like I said maybe he's Hela's right hand man (pun intended )

adding: at some point there possibly is a flashback involving Algrim, Malekith, Odin and Frigga, that shows why Malekith is so vengeful, possibly Thor or Odin caused his half dead status in the past.


edit: I've added a few points to that last spoiler button towards the end that some might not have seen earlier.

Also, if anyone wants to take what I have here copy/paste into another post and rework what's there to fit in with what you think then feel free.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I like it, except for 1 thing, by that I mean, disagree with. That Surtur's role will be that small. For whatever reason, twilight WILL be involved. Don't forget we saw Eternal fFlame in odin's treasure room. So i think it (based on the synopsis) really is going to be just like the arc, surtur gets build up...he attacks at the end, and the end of the movie very well may be an asgard, odin loke thor vs surtur. That's just my opinion.Like I said recently, that villain in the synopsis seems to have a pretty denctly sized role. I think we may be over crowding this movie a bit, I don't think there will be as much going on as we seem to think. I really don't have the time to write out exactly what I think, but it's similar to yours, with a few tweaks and such either way, I think yours sounds good. though you left one thing open (super minor)

You said Malekith is dead, how is he dead?

I'll just say it. Okay, well, not all of it, but here is a short summary of what I think is going to happen in this movie. super short.

The Asgardians have fallen out with the dark elves before. Odin has fought Surtur before. Odin's treasure room will be a little more important, as the Eternal flame is discussed as the IG, to lead thanos into for future movies, since he is suppose to be the big bad for phase 2.

So. Here is what I think this movie is going to be about.

I do agree with Hela's reasons for being involved, and the fights. But as a whole, this is what I think the movie is going to be about, opposed to a whole bunch of big plots, I think Hela's role will be small, I personally don't think Karnilla will be in it. I think Surtur has been forging twilight, and plans on destroying the 9 realms. Odin tells thor of this, and he says he must use his powers to protect asgard. Surtur wants to invade asgard, with twilight, and destroy it, and take the eternal flame for power, and destroy the 9 realms. At the same time, Malekith and his dark elves invade asgard, and I think the same thing you do, to keep it short. Malekith with somehow being worked by surtur, or made some deal, or something. Though he still has his own motive. In a way, there will be two stories going on. Malekith and his elves trying to take over asgard and such and plunge everything into darkness, with thor and them going on a journey, and the other, being surtur building twilight, to invade asgard, which is being built up through out the movie. I think either its going to end as surtur finishes twilight, or it will finish after he is defeated,, the pace of the movie I think will be him. Malekith leads their army, algrim takes on thor, is defeated, mocked, and "killed" by Malekith. As algrim is in Hela's real, surtur is in backround, Hela is impressed by his hatred and passion for wanting to defeat thor, has surtur turn him into kurse, and bring him back to life. He gives thor a beating, thor ends up defeating him. defeats malekith, kurse remembers, then kills malekith. and then it eventually either...

1. Ends here, movie is over, but we know there is something going on with the character, Surtur appears after credits

2. Surtur attacks earth and asgard, Loki and Odin are being defeated by Surtur, Thor is on earth, finishing off, whatever he is doing, and portal is still open to asgard ,where he meets loki and odin, and "saves" the day....(it is a thor movie after all) and by saves the day, I mean he reinspires hope. the 3 talk...then Surtur attacks, Odin yells, "For Asgard!" Thor, "For Midgard!" then loki says, "I have nothing else...for Myself!"

Something like that, and they defeat Surtur...yada yada movie ends, after credit scene will be some something involving the IG.




that is my opinion on what is going on. I am tired, I am sorry if I don't respond to anything else in this thread lol I am wiped/burnt out

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Old 11-18-2012, 07:56 AM   #60
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American Maid Re: Jane
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Indeed. Yeah, after I submitted my post, it occurred to me that Malekith isn't going to be standing around, rubbing his hands together saying "Muhahahah!" waiting for Thor to get back from Valhalla. There'd be the whole agenda of "Okay, now you are going to build us a portal."

She could also potentially build a portal that traps/destroys the army. Is she prepared to be that brutal?
Exactly. Moral Sacrifice and is she willing to do that, and could she be clever enough to do something like what Tony did in a similar circumstance in the beginning of Iron Man 1. I dont know. Smarter people than me need to figure that one out. LOL


RE: Malekith's illusions and Loki

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
But you basically are saying that Malekith is a better illusionist than Loki (unless it's someone other than Malekith putting the illusions on the doppelgangers). I don't have a strong sense of their relative powers--maybe someone else can weigh in--but this strikes me as surprising. The Marvel page doesn't compare the two directly, though it does say that Loki's sorcery powers are equal to that of Karnilla, who is the most skilled sorceress of the Nine Realms. That implies that Loki is better than Malekith. So it's not as clear to me that he would indeed be fooled by this illusion on the dark elves.
I feel like we havent really seen the tip of the iceberg of what Loki can do in the comics, or Thor or Odin for that matter, so it's hard to make a judgement on comparing Loki and Malekith in MCU. What I can say is what they are filming now, and what looks like a lot of magic being used on the part of Malekith, that Malekith is pretty damn powerful, and it would seem more adept with magic than Loki is by the time of Avengers (Malekith is doing it himself, no spear or scepter that I can see)



Jaqua99 RE: King Thor
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Just wanna adress these first Wait, so you think this Thor franchise is going to end with Loki on the throne instead of Thor???? We already got a lot of forshadowing that thor will eventually be king. Plus having thor have the throne makes sense if and when the avengers and who ever else fight thanos with the IG. Thor may have the Odinforce if it is involved..allowing him to be more powerful to fight Thanos.
Again what I am drawing on is the theme of "moral sacrifice" and that stuff I quoted earlier about patriotism vs nationalism and serving one's country. You do not put a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" blazed in big letters across it, and Stan Lee possibly driving the bus, no less, without that being a very very important theme. So, when trying to figure out plot for Thor 2 everyone, definitely think "Moral Sacrifice".

Now I know it is a theme where Thor will often go off and protect Midgard in the comics and he's already been showing doing that. Now how do you suppose "everybody upstairs in space" (to quote Tom) feels about that? It's like having a president that is always flying over to France to check on how France is doing, and to protect them. It's not a good quality to have in a president or a king to be more concerned with another country's welfare. So A LOT of Asgardians may not like this, at all. And these are not perfect people, maybe A LOT of them agree with what Loki tried to do to the Jotuns, maybe A LOT have the opinion that Midgard should be left to it's own fate. I feel confident A LOT will not appreciate Thor going off to protect Midgard when Asgard needs him. This would certainly set up a scenario where Loki is looking better to them as King (and I believe Loki has become King more than once in comics yes?, maybe not quite this way though), and he's already been acknowledged as an heir to the throne by those people, and that he has a right to that throne. (and again, in monarchies here, people do some pretty bad stuff and still wind up on the throne, without people opposing them enough to stop them)

Anyway, back to moral sacrifice, in my scenario Thor is being expected to let Midgard fall for the greater good of Asgard as his moral sacrifice. I think this is most likely scenario. And when he refuses to do this, then while it may be a win for Earth, it is a major loss for Asgard. And the other Asgardians MAY blame him for it, and who knows maybe Loki helps push it in that direction more. I dont know. But again it would be an interesting turn of events and would set up a legit reason for Thor to be on Earth in Avengers 2. Otherwise if he's king that may make him too powerful, and the other heros won't have as much to do, and for that matter he could send his Asgardian army down to fight whatever. So, we need to hold Thor back a bit as far as his power levels are concerned I think, for now at least, due to the worry of making him too poweful when it comes to the Avengers movies.

And maybe, as in the comics Odin is not actually dead. Saved for a surprise in Thor3.

Lastly, if we take a note from Star Wars, the original, as a basis for how a trilogy of movies *should* work, and apply that to Thor 1 -3 (potentially) then follow me here.... In Star Wars 1, the hero is introduced as a sort of willful young man, and he learns some lessons and loses a loved one along the way, but in the end BIG win for the Heros/rebellion, right? Then in Empire Strikes back, the rebels are hit hard, Han is captured and frozen in carbonite and carted off to Jabba, and Luke is expected to make a moral sacrifice by Yoda and Obi Wan to let his friends die, which he cannot accept, and along with his butt kicked, he loses his hand. Then of course we have Return of the Jedi with another big win for the rebels, and the bad guys are defeated, and the villain redeems himself.

Now apply this to Thor. Thor is introduced as a willful, even arrogant, young man, he learns some lessons along the way, loses a loved one along the way, but Earth wins big because the Destroyer is stopped and they now have Thor as it's protector. Thor 2 it would follow that you may see something more similar to what I describe above for Empire Strikes Back. So #2 is not necessarily going to be a good guy totally wins episode, in fact it likely won't, with this in mind. Now in my scenario we have Asgard being hit hard, Odin possibly dying (or Frigga) being parelelled with Han possibly dying and being taken by Boba Fett, and of course Thor has a moral sacrifice that is expected of him, that he cannot accept, and he gets his butt kicked but survives it. And so him losing the throne, or stepping away from it or both, could be paralelled with Luke losing his hand and feeling very defeated in general. Then in Thor 3, well I just hope that we dont have any Ewok's singing.

of course they may not follow this model so closely, but I do think there is a strong chance of this not being a "the hero wins everything again!" episode, especially if they are planning a 3rd Thor and of course more Avengers. The heros have to be defeated sometimes in order to keep things interesting for the audience.

In regards to Malekith dying, I dont know how, assuming it's Kurse. Or maybe they'll save that part of Thor 3, though I doubt that. I do like your scenario of Algrim going back to Hel and Surtur and Hela beefing him up, and sending him back. My only question is how could he not remember Malekith trying to kill him right away. Other than that I like the concept.


Okay, so you know, I am sort of sticking with what I have written for my summary for now with a few adjustments which we've discussed like

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Tyr being the lead man for Hela, and Hela staying behind. And I'm still not sure about how Frigga dies, if she does, or how Stonehenge figures into it, or Alfheim assuming that is used somehow... and there is something else I'm probably forgetting...

Edit: oh, yeah, I would also need to add a scene with Algrim/Kurse and Odin and Frigga (per Adewale tweets). So at the moment I would add in a flashback scene explaining why Malekith is half dead, maybe Teen Thor and Teen Loki are to blame and so a scene with Frigga and Odin, saving the boys from the Dark Elves. Until we get more info about that part of it, or I can fit that into my version some other way. those are the two things I would change about my summary until we get more info.


anyway, I'm spending too much time here! lol! Tis' addictive, verily.

Still very enthusiastic Jaqua99, just have other stuff to do. lol

Plus I dont think I can figure out much more until more leaks, For one thing if other characters show up for the fight scenes they are currently filming then that may blow much of my summary out of the water. So... I'm sitting on my summary for now and waiting to see what else leaks.

Again if anyone wants to give it a try, feel free to copy paste my summary here to save yourself time and then just rework that as you like. (maybe put your changes in bold so we can see the differences more clearly). I'll be curious to see what other visions people have for this.


Last edited by elizah72; 11-18-2012 at 11:10 AM. Reason: just adding something to my last spoiler button about what I would add to my summary...
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:15 AM   #61
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Okay, first, I'll reply to what's come before. Then I'll have another post that is inspired by the conversation going on over in the main Spoilers thread.

Edit: this idea is not really working all that well. It's stalled out in the file on my computer. If I can get it pulled together, I'll post it. But there are all these holes, grr.. . . Oh, and I suppose I should get some other stuff done too

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

JonAqua said:
Quote:
Malekith leads their army, algrim takes on thor, is defeated, mocked, and "killed" by Malekith. As algrim is in Hela's real, surtur is in backround, Hela is impressed by his hatred and passion for wanting to defeat thor, has surtur turn him into kurse, and bring him back to life.
Oh, I *love* this! Love this! This is awesome! I think you were thinking Surtur would do both the reviving and the mod'ing, but consider this: I was reading Hela's profile, and she can bring people back to life. So she brings Algrim back to life as Algrim, and then Surtur turns him into Kurse. How 'bout that?

Elizah said:
Quote:
I do like your scenario of Algrim going back to Hel and Surtur and Hela beefing him up, and sending him back. My only question is how could he not remember Malekith trying to kill him right away.
Well, it's actually true to the Simonson telling that Kurse has, er, memory issues straight out of the gate. At first he thinks Thor is responsible, since that's who he remembers battling at the time of his death. I believe in the books Thor asks teh Beyonder to teleport Kurse to Hel. Kurse thinks Thor is down there in Hel somewhere, so he charges around for a while causing Hela grief (so that's another reason why Jon's idea is so fun). Then Kurse is clanging around New York for a while (forget how he gets there) fighting Beta Ray Bill, thinking he's Thor. Finally he remembers that it was Malekith that did this. By this time Malekith is in disguise as Balder in Asgard. (And I think Loki is sitting in his jail cell in Asgard disguised as Malekith. So two little tidbits to file away in case it helps with plot holes) So Kurse gets up to Asgard and causes a lot of property damage trying to get Malekith. Finally, he gets his elf and thereafter becomes peaceful.

So yeah, he could fail to remember Malekith when he's first revived.

I said:
Quote:
[Jane] could also potentially build a portal that traps/destroys the army. Is she prepared to be that brutal?
Elizah said:
Quote:
Exactly. Moral Sacrifice and is she willing to do that, and could she be clever enough to do something like what Tony did in a similar circumstance in the beginning of Iron Man 1. I dont know. Smarter people than me need to figure that one out. LOL
Well, I have great faith in our Woman of Science LOL And since I'm convinced Thor is totally more powerful than Iron Man, I'm happy to have Jane go toe-to-toe with Stark in the brain department Maybe Jane could put them in a closed-ended "portal". So they're neither dead nor a threat. She could let them out once Kurse is peaceful. (This is also a moment of irony/Jane saying, "Screw you, universe!": one of the ways Jane has exited the story in the books is that she was trapped in some sort of inter-dimensional rift (and Thor and Sif later rescued her).)

Elizah said:
Quote:
You do not put a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" blazed in big letters across it, and Stan Lee possibly driving the bus, no less, without that being a very very important theme.
Channeling Anton Checkov, I see: "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

Elizah said:
Quote:
I feel confident A LOT [of Asgardians] will not appreciate Thor going off to protect Midgard when Asgard needs him. This would certainly set up a scenario where Loki is looking better to them as King
I believe at one point in the books Thor declines the throne, saying he still wants to do more hero-type stuff and in particular spend time on Earth. That may even be at the end of this Simonson run, when the Althing votes on the next king. (Loki didn't have the vote in that one after all). I believe Balder was king for a while.

If they do something like that (though I do agree with Elizah's earlier point about an Althing dragging down the wrap-up of the film), then maybe they vote in Loki or maybe . . .Tyr. (Just sayin'! If in the first act you have put another heir . . . .) I do think you are spot on regarding the attitudes of at least some Asgardians.

Elizah said:
Quote:
[If Thor]'s king that may make him too powerful, and the other heros won't have as much to do, and for that matter he could send his Asgardian army down to fight whatever
Well, like we discussed with someone. . .somewhere, forget who and which thread (sorry! I was going to say JonAqua, but then I thought it might have been Herolee10), Thor when he is fighting alongside of the Avengers probably tries to hang back as much as possible so that Midgardians fight their own battles to the extend of their abilities. It helps their growth as a people. But if he's king, it's so hard to get away. . .And there's also his people saying, "why are you so concerned with those guys?"

What you say here also brings up a big obstacle for this whole Thor2 story liine: Odin's power level. He's a million billion times more powerful than Thor (plus or minus). So why can't he protect Frigga? Why do they need help from Valhalla? Why do they need Thor to do anything? So they have to keep Odin from doing a bunch of stuff, but then if Surtur shows up at the end, they need Odin to do stuff at full strength. The plot has to accomplish all this without using the same Odinsleep plot device because that would be boooooring (and not reflect well on his character).

Quote:
I just hope that we dont have any Ewok's singing.
hahahah Or Jane in a bunch of ridiculous costumes

Seriously, though, I think you are right about it not being every episode the hero completely triumphant.


OMG My post is frickin' huge!


Last edited by American Maid; 11-18-2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:37 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Channeling Anton Checkov, I see: "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."
Exactly!

RE: Who rules?
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Quote:
If they do something like that (though I do agree with Elizah's earlier point about an Althing dragging down the wrap-up of the film), then maybe they vote in Loki or maybe . . .Tyr. (Just sayin'! If in the first act you have put another heir . . . .) I do think you are spot on regarding the attitudes of at least some Asgardians.
Or, if the Frigga dying spoiler is a mislead from the studio, (and it's really just Odin) then maybe Frigga could rule. Probably not, but I like it due to the fact that I like Frigga, and maybe she's forgiven Loki and so he's by her side, available to cause trouble in court in Thor 3 Especially if Thor wanders back to Asgard again and Loki sees him as competition again. These are alternate possibilities certainly, I just think the juiciest one is with Loki on the throne in the end.

But I have a feeling Tyr might wind up being Odin's brother, not Thor's brother, and that the relationship may paralell Thor-Loki, and so that may put Tyr on Hela's side. Just a guess though...


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Old 11-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #63
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
Exactly!

RE: Who rules?
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


Or, if the Frigga dying spoiler is a mislead from the studio, (and it's really just Odin) then maybe Frigga could rule. Probably not, but I like it due to the fact that I like Frigga, and maybe she's forgiven Loki and so he's by her side, available to cause trouble in court in Thor 3 Especially if Thor wanders back to Asgard again and Loki sees him as competition again. These are alternate possibilities certainly, I just think the juiciest one is with Loki on the throne in the end.

But I have a feeling Tyr might wind up being Odin's brother, not Thor's brother, and that the relationship may paralell Thor-Loki, and so that may put Tyr on Hela's side. Just a guess though...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I like the idea of Frigga ruling! In myth, she was the only other one worthy to sit on Odin's throne. (not Loki, not Thor) But Loki on the throne is the juiciest of possibilities.

I agree; Tyr is likely a non-rival to Thor or Loki. I just wanted a chance to make the Chekhov reference

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:09 PM   #64
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
American Maid Re: Jane
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


Exactly. Moral Sacrifice and is she willing to do that, and could she be clever enough to do something like what Tony did in a similar circumstance in the beginning of Iron Man 1. I dont know. Smarter people than me need to figure that one out. LOL


RE: Malekith's illusions and Loki

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


I feel like we havent really seen the tip of the iceberg of what Loki can do in the comics, or Thor or Odin for that matter, so it's hard to make a judgement on comparing Loki and Malekith in MCU. What I can say is what they are filming now, and what looks like a lot of magic being used on the part of Malekith, that Malekith is pretty damn powerful, and it would seem more adept with magic than Loki is by the time of Avengers (Malekith is doing it himself, no spear or scepter that I can see)



Jaqua99 RE: King Thor
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:


Again what I am drawing on is the theme of "moral sacrifice" and that stuff I quoted earlier about patriotism vs nationalism and serving one's country. You do not put a big red bus with "Moral Sacrifice" blazed in big letters across it, and Stan Lee possibly driving the bus, no less, without that being a very very important theme. So, when trying to figure out plot for Thor 2 everyone, definitely think "Moral Sacrifice".

Now I know it is a theme where Thor will often go off and protect Midgard in the comics and he's already been showing doing that. Now how do you suppose "everybody upstairs in space" (to quote Tom) feels about that? It's like having a president that is always flying over to France to check on how France is doing, and to protect them. It's not a good quality to have in a president or a king to be more concerned with another country's welfare. So A LOT of Asgardians may not like this, at all. And these are not perfect people, maybe A LOT of them agree with what Loki tried to do to the Jotuns, maybe A LOT have the opinion that Midgard should be left to it's own fate. I feel confident A LOT will not appreciate Thor going off to protect Midgard when Asgard needs him. This would certainly set up a scenario where Loki is looking better to them as King (and I believe Loki has become King more than once in comics yes?, maybe not quite this way though), and he's already been acknowledged as an heir to the throne by those people, and that he has a right to that throne. (and again, in monarchies here, people do some pretty bad stuff and still wind up on the throne, without people opposing them enough to stop them)

Anyway, back to moral sacrifice, in my scenario Thor is being expected to let Midgard fall for the greater good of Asgard as his moral sacrifice. I think this is most likely scenario. And when he refuses to do this, then while it may be a win for Earth, it is a major loss for Asgard. And the other Asgardians MAY blame him for it, and who knows maybe Loki helps push it in that direction more. I dont know. But again it would be an interesting turn of events and would set up a legit reason for Thor to be on Earth in Avengers 2. Otherwise if he's king that may make him too powerful, and the other heros won't have as much to do, and for that matter he could send his Asgardian army down to fight whatever. So, we need to hold Thor back a bit as far as his power levels are concerned I think, for now at least, due to the worry of making him too poweful when it comes to the Avengers movies.

And maybe, as in the comics Odin is not actually dead. Saved for a surprise in Thor3.

Lastly, if we take a note from Star Wars, the original, as a basis for how a trilogy of movies *should* work, and apply that to Thor 1 -3 (potentially) then follow me here.... In Star Wars 1, the hero is introduced as a sort of willful young man, and he learns some lessons and loses a loved one along the way, but in the end BIG win for the Heros/rebellion, right? Then in Empire Strikes back, the rebels are hit hard, Han is captured and frozen in carbonite and carted off to Jabba, and Luke is expected to make a moral sacrifice by Yoda and Obi Wan to let his friends die, which he cannot accept, and along with his butt kicked, he loses his hand. Then of course we have Return of the Jedi with another big win for the rebels, and the bad guys are defeated, and the villain redeems himself.

Now apply this to Thor. Thor is introduced as a willful, even arrogant, young man, he learns some lessons along the way, loses a loved one along the way, but Earth wins big because the Destroyer is stopped and they now have Thor as it's protector. Thor 2 it would follow that you may see something more similar to what I describe above for Empire Strikes Back. So #2 is not necessarily going to be a good guy totally wins episode, in fact it likely won't, with this in mind. Now in my scenario we have Asgard being hit hard, Odin possibly dying (or Frigga) being parelelled with Han possibly dying and being taken by Boba Fett, and of course Thor has a moral sacrifice that is expected of him, that he cannot accept, and he gets his butt kicked but survives it. And so him losing the throne, or stepping away from it or both, could be paralelled with Luke losing his hand and feeling very defeated in general. Then in Thor 3, well I just hope that we dont have any Ewok's singing.

of course they may not follow this model so closely, but I do think there is a strong chance of this not being a "the hero wins everything again!" episode, especially if they are planning a 3rd Thor and of course more Avengers. The heros have to be defeated sometimes in order to keep things interesting for the audience.

In regards to Malekith dying, I dont know how, assuming it's Kurse. Or maybe they'll save that part of Thor 3, though I doubt that. I do like your scenario of Algrim going back to Hel and Surtur and Hela beefing him up, and sending him back. My only question is how could he not remember Malekith trying to kill him right away. Other than that I like the concept.


Okay, so you know, I am sort of sticking with what I have written for my summary for now with a few adjustments which we've discussed like

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Tyr being the lead man for Hela, and Hela staying behind. And I'm still not sure about how Frigga dies, if she does, or how Stonehenge figures into it, or Alfheim assuming that is used somehow... and there is something else I'm probably forgetting...

Edit: oh, yeah, I would also need to add a scene with Algrim/Kurse and Odin and Frigga (per Adewale tweets). So at the moment I would add in a flashback scene explaining why Malekith is half dead, maybe Teen Thor and Teen Loki are to blame and so a scene with Frigga and Odin, saving the boys from the Dark Elves. Until we get more info about that part of it, or I can fit that into my version some other way. those are the two things I would change about my summary until we get more info.


anyway, I'm spending too much time here! lol! Tis' addictive, verily.

Still very enthusiastic Jaqua99, just have other stuff to do. lol

Plus I dont think I can figure out much more until more leaks, For one thing if other characters show up for the fight scenes they are currently filming then that may blow much of my summary out of the water. So... I'm sitting on my summary for now and waiting to see what else leaks.

Again if anyone wants to give it a try, feel free to copy paste my summary here to save yourself time and then just rework that as you like. (maybe put your changes in bold so we can see the differences more clearly). I'll be curious to see what other visions people have for this.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I understand. But the thing is, you need to take past things into account. Thor DID have a correnation start. And his past. It was always going to be Thor. Yes, assuming Thor sacrifices asgard's need by stayinh on midgard certainly would piss the people above off. No doubt. But here is the issue. First off, I am having trouble understand what you are saying, do you think the entire franchise will END with Loki on the Throne? ( in the comics, Loki ends up on the throne through manipulation and schemes) Or do you think the scenarios of THIS movie will end with Loki on the throne. If that's what you mean, then I agree. That the scenarios of this movie, COULD end with Loki on the throne.

However, you can't deny, that at the end of thor 3, or in the future, Thor WILL get the throne elizah lol.

Also, take into consideration what Loki has done. Him fighting by Odin's side for survival really shouldn't wipe his slate clean. Thor made a poor judgement, a moral sacrifice by abandoning asgard, and they won't be happy about it.

Loki manipulated his way to the throne (he was already king in the mcu don't forget) he tried to kill his brother, the true air, he tried to destroy jotenheim, he tried to take over midgard, and made deals with someone, someone who Odin may think is very dangerous, Thanos. I just don't see them being able to forgive him for ALL that JUST because he is there and thor isn't. For that reason, I really don't think Loki will get the throne AGAIN, he's done too many bad. I am getting that vibe that with all the damage done, the asgardians may percieve Loki as they percieve him in the comics, although he can redeem himself, and do something for the good, they can still never trust him, and will never give him the throne.

Personally, I think it would be better if someone else became king, IF Odin diees, and IF thor's sacrifice affects him, Tyr could become king.

Or if Odin is alive at the end of this, NO DOUBT, he will still be king.

But that is my stance on that. I just don't think all Loki has done can be forgiven, even though thor made this one mistake, Odin is wise, they won't prefer Loki on the throne because of one good deed. I just can't see that happening.

I asked cause I thought you meant that in the end, Loki will be King, and Thor will NEVER be king. It seems inevitible that Thor ultimately will become king when Odin is gone. Hopefully you understand my POV


Quote:
Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I like the idea of Frigga ruling! In myth, she was the only other one worthy to sit on Odin's throne. (not Loki, not Thor) But Loki on the throne is the juiciest of possibilities.

I agree; Tyr is likely a non-rival to Thor or Loki. I just wanted a chance to make the Chekhov reference
hmmmmmm, not too sure

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
I think you guys are thinking too much as Loki fans :P he won't get the throne, he's done far too much bad. Even if thor makes this moral sacrifice, Loki's bad deed will STILL outweigh Thor's by a huge margin. Loki should never be fully trusted by the asgardians again, as he is in the comics, if he makes it to the throne, it should be through manipulation, and scheming, even in the mcu. He's already done far too much bad. He just can't be viewed as a better air than Thor, he's just done too bad. And that is fine, that helps develop loki even deeper

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:38 PM   #65
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Guys honestly, you don't need to use spoiler tags. The thread's name warns everyone.

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Old 11-18-2012, 12:41 PM   #66
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

And, Yes, I would agree with Rock Sexton. If someone is in here they are just begging to be spoiled. And its a pain in the butt to add all these tags! So... let's drop the spoiler tags here, now shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
First off, I am having trouble understand what you are saying, do you think the entire franchise will END with Loki on the Throne? ( in the comics, Loki ends up on the throne through manipulation and schemes) Or do you think the scenarios of THIS movie will end with Loki on the throne. If that's what you mean, then I agree. That the scenarios of this movie, COULD end with Loki on the throne.

However, you can't deny, that at the end of thor 3, or in the future, Thor WILL get the throne elizah lol.
Yes just at the end of Thor 2, Avengers 2 and at least beginning of Thor 3. not through the end of the franchise. Yes, Thor will end up King eventually. And yes certainly Loki is likely to do a certain amount of manipulating in my scenario to help him get to the throne at the end of Thor 2. But my point is, it won't last, mischief and mayhem will ensue. And that makes Thor 3 all the more interesting.

Quote:
I just don't see them being able to forgive him for ALL that JUST because he is there and thor isn't. For that reason, I really don't think Loki will get the throne AGAIN, he's done too many bad. I am getting that vibe that with all the damage done, the asgardians may percieve Loki as they percieve him in the comics, although he can redeem himself, and do something for the good, they can still never trust him, and will never give him the throne.
However, we dont know what the average Asgardian knows, do we? And if the average Asgardian says, "good! He should destroy the Frost Giants! They are a menace! I tell my children about them at night!" and they don't know that Loki is a frost giant (unless they have rag newspapers and expose tv shows, word may not have gotten out about all of that). And so maybe they dont know what exactly happened with Loki trying to kill Thor and co, and just that small group of insiders like Sif, the warriors 3 and Heimdall know. After his family's shock and sadness about Loki's "death" they may very well have asked people to not to speak of it or remember him this way, to remember the good times. Sort of like what was done with Harvey Dent in Batman in the end. They could have just kept that stuff quiet like that, and tried to let Loki's memory to the rest of the Asgardians be positive, rather than something so terrible. So... I'm just sayin'.... The average Asgardian may not know anything about what happened on Midgard either, or particularly care. We will get a better idea about all of this, and what Asgardians as a whole actually know about all of that when the movie comes out. But they may not know much. Now the Warriors 3, Heimdall and Sif, will certainly have a problem with it, but if they are outnumbered by those who think he has a right to the throne, and are mad at Thor for not fighting beside them, and without knowing this other stuff Loki did, then certainly Sif etc may not be able to do anything about it. (which sort of what happened in Thor 1 when the Warriors 3 started suspecting. They knew they couldnt just walk in there and take Loki off the throne, the guards there would defend their new king for sure. Even Heimdall hesitated to do anything like that.)

Did I say something about cutting down posting here before? Ha! Like that's gonna happen.


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Old 11-18-2012, 01:04 PM   #67
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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And, Yes, I would agree with Rock Sexton. If someone is in here they are just begging to be spoiled. And its a pain in the butt to add all these tags! So... let's drop the spoiler tags here, now shall we?



Yes just at the end of Thor 2, Avengers 2 and at least beginning of Thor 3. not through the end of the franchise. Yes, Thor will end up King eventually. And yes certainly Loki is likely to do a certain amount of manipulating in my scenario to help him get to the throne at the end of Thor 2. But my point is, it won't last, mischief and mayhem will ensue. And that makes Thor 3 all the more interesting.



However, we dont know what the average Asgardian knows, do we? And if the average Asgardian says, "good! He should destroy the Frost Giants! They are a menace! I tell my children about them at night!" and they don't know that Loki is a frost giant (unless they have rag newspapers and expose tv shows, word may not have gotten out about all of that). And so maybe they dont know what exactly happened with Loki trying to kill Thor and co, and just that small group of insiders like Sif, the warriors 3 and Heimdall know. After his family's shock and sadness about Loki's "death" they may very well have asked people to not to speak of it or remember him this way, to remember the good times. Sort of like what was done with Harvey Dent in Batman in the end. They could have just kept that stuff quiet like that, and tried to let Loki's memory to the rest of the Asgardians be positive, rather than something so terrible. So... I'm just sayin'.... The average Asgardian may not know anything about what happened on Midgard either, or particularly care. We will get a better idea about all of this, and what Asgardians as a whole actually know about all of that when the movie comes out. But they may not know much. Now the Warriors 3, Heimdall and Sif, will certainly have a problem with it, but if they are outnumbered by those who think he has a right to the throne, and are mad at Thor for not fighting beside them, and without knowing this other stuff Loki did, then certainly Sif etc may not be able to do anything about it. (which sort of what happened in Thor 1 when the Warriors 3 started suspecting. They knew they couldnt just walk in there and take Loki off the throne, the guards there would defend their new king for sure. Even Heimdall hesitated to do anything like that.)

Did I say something about cutting down posting here before? Ha! Like that's gonna happen.
Lol I know, but he's done soooo much bad.

And yah, I thought I was gunna cut back, and now I've made almost 200 posts in 4 days -_-

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Old 11-18-2012, 01:14 PM   #68
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Did I say something about cutting down posting here before? Ha! Like that's gonna happen.
Well, now that you don't have to mess with all those spoiler tags, you have all kinds of time, right?

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Old 11-18-2012, 01:14 PM   #69
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Lol I know, but he's done soooo much bad.

And yah, I thought I was gunna cut back, and now I've made almost 200 posts in 4 days -_-
I know he has, but just to add to what I just said about the average Asgardian knows.... what if the only thing that got out was he was responsible for killing Laufey, and little else of the truth? I mean, they may see him as a BIG HERO! And then his stupid brother broke the bifrost for some reason. Dumbass...

besides the fact, think of the average movie goer for Thor 2. With Thor winning per usual, They come out happy Thor won, now he's king, all is good in the universe and there were some cool fight scenes too. They say, "I hope they do a Thor 3, more cool fight scenes and Thor is going to be supercharged with the Odinforce."

versus

the average movie goer comes out, "what??!?! They made Loki King?!?!?! What the!?!??! And Thor's all sad on Earth? They can't end like that!!! What the hell happens next? What the? I NEED to see Thor 3 now!!!!"

See the difference?

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Old 11-18-2012, 01:15 PM   #70
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Well, now that you don't have to mess with all those spoiler tags, you have all kinds of time, right?
this is true. And it's Sunday. LOL

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Old 11-18-2012, 05:29 PM   #71
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Okay so, to continue discussions while we wait for more spoilers and pictures and leaks to come through... with Thor 2 we are expecting to see all the 9 realms involved. (or at least creatures representing them all) . I am not sure if it was confirmed for sure all 9 though I know it has been rumored all along. So...

Realms we definitely have represented in Thor 2: Asgard, Midgard, Svartalfheim (Dark Elves)

Realms probably represented in Thor 2 (according to our guesses about plot here): Niffleheim (Hel), Muspelheim (Fire Giants and Demons)

Assuming we do see most of the realms, if not quite all, out of the ones we have left, which do you think will also make it in, and why? What impact might they have on the story?

Remaining realms:
Vanaheim (Vanir)
Alfheim (Light Elves)
Jotunheim (Frost Giants)
Nidavellir (Dwarfs)

This is a nice website with reference to the mythology, with the page on the realms here: http://www.viking-mythology.com/theNineWorlds.html

and another site to reference with pictures of Marvel's version of the 9 realms: http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Nine_Worlds

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Old 11-18-2012, 06:03 PM   #72
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Okay so, to continue discussions while we wait for more spoilers and pictures and leaks to come through... with Thor 2 we are expecting to see all the 9 realms involved. (or at least creatures representing them all) . I am not sure if it was confirmed for sure all 9 though I know it has been rumored all along. So...

Realms we definitely have represented in Thor 2: Asgard, Midgard, Svartalfheim (Dark Elves)

Realms probably represented in Thor 2 (according to our guesses about plot here): Niffleheim (Hel), Muspelheim (Fire Giants and Demons)

Assuming we do see most of the realms, if not quite all, out of the ones we have left, which do you think will also make it in, and why? What impact might they have on the story?

Remaining realms:
Vanaheim (Vanir)
Alfheim (Light Elves)
Jotunheim (Frost Giants)
Nidavellir (Dwarfs)

This is a nice website with reference to the mythology, with the page on the realms here: http://www.viking-mythology.com/theNineWorlds.html

and another site to reference with pictures of Marvel's version of the 9 realms: http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Nine_Worlds
Way to go Elizah! It was too quiet around here. I got 4 hours of work done.

I for one would like to see the Vanir and Vanaheim. How are they distinct from the Aesir? It doesn't look like they've appeared very often in the books, so it seems likely we'll see these guys.

You had suggested that they might be part of the coalition attacking at Bourne Woods. Here's another idea: in the Simonson arc, Frigga evacuates the children out of Asgard (like all 12 of them) immediately prior to Surtur's attack. I looked at some pages someone had posted. They don't make it clear where exactly they go, but it looks to be some province on the same world. But maybe some Asgardian refugees could go to Vanaheim, if they are on friendly terms with Asgard.

We're also likely to see Alfheim (via Stonehenge?) I suppose they will have to go to pains to avoid looking like Lord of the Rings. I wonder what their relationship to the Svartalfheim is. If they think Malekith & Co have gone too far, will they intervene to provide balance? Will they sit it out, secretly resenting Asgard? The Marvel page says Odin appointed an Asgardian to rule over Alfheim. That can't sit well with them. There are even fewer appearances of Alfheim than of Vanaheim in the books.

Maybe if Thor convinces Kurse to lead the dark elves into an era of peace that might mollify the light elves a bit.

Jotunheim--we've been there, seen that, so they probably won't do much if anything there. They're probably not in a hurry to see Our Hero either.

If we need any McGuffins, then I suppose they'll go to Nidavellir. At one point I had wondered if they would need to go there to get parts for the rainbow bridge. But there's clearly not time for that now.

Actually, there's a minor point that I see in rereading your post. Will we actually visit the realm or see representation (or influence) from each realm?

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:09 PM   #73
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Actually, there's a minor point that I see in rereading your post. Will we actually visit the realm or see representation (or influence) from each realm?
I'm not sure that we'll see the realms or they will just be represented through characters (I think more likely). Just take my question as, will they be somehow represented.

Here is one page on screenrant that talks about the rumor that all 9 realms MAY be showcased with some pictures of concept art (not official) and a map of the 9 Realms which is nice (though it looks different in the movie)

http://screenrant.com/thor-2-nine-worlds-concept-art

Also note at the bottom there, the "fun fact"

Quote:
In Marvel Comics, Odin has a mystical viking longship called Skipbladnir that he uses to travel through space. It can change size and fit in your pocket!
I that someone came up with that idea. Makes me hmmm... maybe Odin is the one who doesn't know how to land his ship without crashing into a palace? Huh, AM?

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Originally Posted by American Maid View Post
Way to go Elizah! It was too quiet around here. I got 4 hours of work done.
Oh, no! We can't have that! Poor thing!

Quote:
I for one would like to see the Vanir and Vanaheim. How are they distinct from the Aesir? It doesn't look like they've appeared very often in the books, so it seems likely we'll see these guys.
I've got mixed feelings, I'd like to see them. I'm intrigued by the idea that they might be warring with the Asgarians at this point in MCU, competing for power over the 9 realms. Or they could decide to fight together against a greater threat. Either way I think we will see them. From the mythology they are an older "god' than the Asgardians, and more nature based. So I think their surroundings and attire would reflect that, probably will have more of a viking influence even than the Asgardians, and more rough and natural with animal skins and furs, and less gold and glitter.

Quote:
You had suggested that they might be part of the coalition attacking at Bourne Woods. Here's another idea: in the Simonson arc, Frigga evacuates the children out of Asgard (like all 12 of them) immediately prior to Surtur's attack. I looked at some pages someone had posted. They don't make it clear where exactly they go, but it looks to be some province on the same world. But maybe some Asgardian refugees could go to Vanaheim, if they are on friendly terms with Asgard.
Good idea. I can see her doing that. And then in an attack on Vanaheim she is killed defending children? Possibly. Would be an honorable way for her to go. I just dont want it to be something lame, just to have her die and move the plot forward, she should go down fighting with honor.

Quote:
We're also likely to see Alfheim (via Stonehenge?) I suppose they will have to go to pains to avoid looking like Lord of the Rings. I wonder what their relationship to the Svartalfheim is. If they think Malekith & Co have gone too far, will they intervene to provide balance? Will they sit it out, secretly resenting Asgard? The Marvel page says Odin appointed an Asgardian to rule over Alfheim. That can't sit well with them. There are even fewer appearances of Alfheim than of Vanaheim in the books.
I think some of the casting calls for natural blondes and attractive men and women who don't mind skimpy outfits, really points to Alfheim, maybe that's what they are doing with the Vanir, but I'd lean towards Alfheim. Although that concept art pictured on that site doesn't show them as being too attractive. I think they may wind up being sexy LOTR elves maybe. LOL
They have been used little from what I can tell in Marvel, but they are good guys, so it seems like they would aid the Asgardians. But also if you look at the description of the myth of light elves, it would make them more seem like the hippies of the 9 realms, all peaceful and angelic and such, so might not be too good in a fight if they go in that direction. http://www.viking-mythology.com/lightelves.html Their appointed leader Freyr was originally a Vanir with his sister Freya, interestingly. But they may not show that either. (When the Asgardians and Vanir made peace they traded a couple of their people in the myths) I agree I can see realms being annoyed at having an appointed Asgardian looking over them.

Quote:
Jotunheim--we've been there, seen that, so they probably won't do much if anything there. They're probably not in a hurry to see Our Hero either.
I would really like it touched on what is going on after Thor 1 there, but I agree we may not get that. Hm... I wonder if the Frost Giants and the Fire Demons get along at all?

Quote:
If we need any McGuffins, then I suppose they'll go to Nidavellir. At one point I had wondered if they would need to go there to get parts for the rainbow bridge. But there's clearly not time for that now.
I think Dwarves of Nidavellir are extremely likely to come into it for a weapon or weapons that might turn the tables, either for the bad guys or the good guys. And Loki has a history of tricking them into making things or stealing from them so... that's fun to look forward to. They will definitely need some humor to lighten the mood, and balance with all the dark stuff that's going to probably happen.

Speaking of Loki and Dwarfs, and Freyr and Freya. In looking around the myth and marvel reference sites, I see that Freya, Freyr's sister, is listed for Marvel as being Loki's wife Sigyn's mother and Sigyn's father is Iwaldi.

Iwaldi is a dwarf and father of 8 of Freya's daughters in the comics apparently. In the myths, Freya is the goddess of love but she will do anything for a beautiful piece of gold jewelry! In myth, she comes to a cave and wants this necklace 4 dwarfs have made. She agrees to sleep with all 4 them so she can have it. (not sure if any kids resulted). So although not one of the dwarfs mentioned in the myth, in the comics Iwaldi is the father of 8 daughters of Freya at least (including Idunn) and the story is somewhat similar that she is sleeping with him for her trinket fix. So basicially, the mother of the goddess of fidelity is a pretty much a ho! LOL Too funny. I mention this story too, because the family of Iwaldi, Freya, and Sigyn and her sisters sounds like something a Game of Thrones director would put up on screen. Wonder if Peter Dinklage is available. Hm... And best of all, neither the dwarfs nor Freya like Loki at all (Loki tattled on her and stole her necklace), so... that would be loads of fun to see a story play out with him married to Sigyn and her family hating him! We probably wont get all of that in the MCU, I know, I know... but still... it's all fun fodder for fan fiction in any case.

Freya
http://www.viking-mythology.com/asynjur.html#freya
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/freyathor.htm

Iwaldi
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/mythguide/iwaldi.html

Sigyn
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/sigynthor.htm

Are there any other interesting Dwarf characters that could appear from the comics? I do think they are likely to be shown.


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Old 11-18-2012, 08:26 PM   #74
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

Hmm. Just been reading up on some of the ideas and opinions here, and I was thinking of a way you could spin some of this movies events in reverse from the first for maximum irony:

So we know that all the Asgardians are stuck on Asgard and bad stuff goes down. Their hegemony being challenged, many of the Asgardians close ranks, possibly even insisting that Loki be slain for his previous treachery or blaming Thor for his "reckless" actions. Odin tries to enforce Asgard's protective doctrine across the nine realms, which spreads the Asgardians thin and allows the Dark Elves to begin moving directly against Asgard (for all we know, they're the first to actually go after the Asgardians-even the Frost Giants only engaged in war after their sperate expansion plans were thwarted,).

Odin grows weaker by the day, while Thor plays champion to the forces of Asgard. Eventually, Odin calls Jane Foster to Asgard for some reason, reuniting with Thor for a while and making her the fish-out-of-water for a while. However, the ensuing conflict threatens to leave Earth abandoned, something Thor will not allow-not just because it is Jane's home, but because he knows that Earth plays a large role in future events thanks to the Avengers.

Under pressure from more jingoistic Asgardians to leave Earth to it's fate, Odin officially abandons Earth, But Thor makes aprincipled stand to defend Midgard. As all heck breaks loose, Asgard comes under direct attack but Thor and Odin realise that Earth is the actual prime jewel. They decide they must defend Earth and Asgard seperately, with Thor being Midgard's new champion. But they have no dark matter.

Enter Loki, who has no problem with the idea of sending Thor on a one-way suicide attack way the heck away from Asgard.

Loki uses his knowledge to get Thor to arrive on Earth just in time for the final battle, wins, but is now again exiled from his home and apart from his love-this time because of his own wisdom and honor.

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Old 11-18-2012, 08:40 PM   #75
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Also note at the bottom there, the "fun fact" <about Odin's ship>

I that someone came up with that idea. Makes me hmmm... maybe Odin is the one who doesn't know how to land his ship without crashing into a palace? Huh, AM?
Lousy Asgardian drivers. . . .

Pretty convenient ship, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
<Frigga evacuates the children of Asgard>
Good idea. I can see her doing that. And then in an attack on Vanaheim she is killed defending children? Possibly. Would be an honorable way for her to go. I just dont want it to be something lame, just to have her die and move the plot forward, she should go down fighting with honor.
Yeah, really. In the book, they encounter a troll, and the kids handle it. But it would be better for Frigga to handle it.

And actually, if she is somewhat removed from the rest of Asgard, that might explain why Odin was not able to meet whatever threat it is that kills her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I agree I can see realms being annoyed at having an appointed Asgardian looking over them.
I feel there is a theme of the relative positions of the realms shifting, becoming on more equal footing. The light elves may well believe in acting in the service of the good, but not being able to self-govern I think would be a grievance. (But they would be very polite about it)

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
I would really like it touched on what is going on after Thor 1 [in Jotunheim], but I agree we may not get that. Hm... I wonder if the Frost Giants and the Fire Demons get along at all?
Maybe in an "enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way.

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