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Old 11-19-2012, 01:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

*sigh* All this nerd-rage over Arrow vs SHIELD...

You guys do realise that - barring they be given the exact same time slots - these two shows can perfectly coexist with one another, right? Moreover, they are likely to be built around very different genres, reaching out primarily to different demographics, and are trying to tell very different stories. So, trying to compare them in terms of one being better over the other is like comparing apples to oranges. Different people are likely to prefer one over the other for entirely different reasons. In fact, the thing that endears one viewer towards a particular show might very well drive a different viewer to the other.

At best, you can only compare them in terms of how well each show achieves what they are setting out to do and in terms of production quality. And one is delusional if one thinks that Arrow has subpar production qualities by any stretch of the imagination.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Well I certainly do think that Arrow's production leaves much to be desired. It looks as dark, washed out and cheap as SV and pretty much every other WB show. It's a good show, but could look a lot better.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:34 PM   #28
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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It's not a problem of addresssing them, but I guess I felt him getting arrested could have waited until a later time. It seemed like a throw away to answer the question that wasn't at that point being raised.... I mean, yeah, at some point, people might have wondered, but his arrest just seemed to soon. It could have waited until someone actually raised the question. That way his arrest would have had more impact, but him just planning to be arrested seemed like a throw-away because now they never have to answer that question.
One of my chief complaints about The Dark Knight Rises is that Blake figures out Bruce's identity based on Bruce's fake smile. Crappy writing aside, the entire dialog belies the fact that Batman appeared shortly after Bruce's return. Few Gothamites could fund Batman's tech, which also draws attention to Wayne. Then you have the fact that when Bruce quits being Batman, he also became a recluse as Bruce Wayne. There were so manu red flags to Bruce's possible connection. Arrow took the very intelligent route when handling the matter, not only by having Ollie carry out such a plan but also by not ignoring the reality of such coincidences.


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This show beat Smallville when it put Oliver into the costume in the first episode. And this show hasn't been nearly as frustrating as Smallville was. But that's just my opinion.
Then you missed the point of Smallville. Tough later seasons introduced so many comic villains and groups that they might as well have just made Clark into Superman, the show was meant to be about Clark's time growingup in Smallville and discovering his powers. He was not meant to wear a costume or be Superman. Since Arrow isn't about Ollie's pre-Green Arrow days, it makes no sense to not have him take on the corresponding mantle.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:42 PM   #29
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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Well I certainly do think that Arrow's production leaves much to be desired. It looks as dark, washed out and cheap as SV and pretty much every other WB show. It's a good show, but could look a lot better.
I can see where you're coming from though I don't mind it myself nor do I think it looks cheap. Personally, I feel it very much fits with the show's overall pessimistic tone and adds to the atmosphere.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:42 PM   #30
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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Then you missed the point of Smallville. Tough later seasons introduced so many comic villains and groups that they might as well have just made Clark into Superman, the show was meant to be about Clark's time growingup in Smallville and discovering his powers. He was not meant to wear a costume or be Superman. Since Arrow isn't about Ollie's pre-Green Arrow days, it makes no sense to not have him take on the corresponding mantle.
I didn't miss the point, I just disagreed with it after they had him move to Metropolis.

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Old 11-19-2012, 01:58 PM   #31
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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I didn't miss the point, I just disagreed with it after they had him move to Metropolis.
On that note, we can agree. Many fans believe that a pseudo spin-off should have occured when Clark moved. The show should have been called "Metropolis." Keep the same cast and crew but change the focus to Clark's exploits as a novice Superman. In fact, here is a fan intro made some years ago

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Old 11-19-2012, 02:45 PM   #32
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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One of my chief complaints about The Dark Knight Rises is that Blake figures out Bruce's identity based on Bruce's fake smile. Crappy writing aside, the entire dialog belies the fact that Batman appeared shortly after Bruce's return. Few Gothamites could fund Batman's tech, which also draws attention to Wayne. Then you have the fact that when Bruce quits being Batman, he also became a recluse as Bruce Wayne. There were so manu red flags to Bruce's possible connection. Arrow took the very intelligent route when handling the matter, not only by having Ollie carry out such a plan but also by not ignoring the reality of such coincidences.




Then you missed the point of Smallville. Tough later seasons introduced so many comic villains and groups that they might as well have just made Clark into Superman, the show was meant to be about Clark's time growingup in Smallville and discovering his powers. He was not meant to wear a costume or be Superman. Since Arrow isn't about Ollie's pre-Green Arrow days, it makes no sense to not have him take on the corresponding mantle.
I think the producers of Smallville missed the point of the show too then. They had him already virtually Superman in all but costume and name by the end, and he took so damn long to learn how to fly. He had met virtually everyone he should've met as Superman and hit most of the major milestones, and yet he still wasn't Superman.

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Old 11-19-2012, 04:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Arrow and Shield are clearly going to e different types of shows. Don't get why people are so obsessed with DC vs Marvel can't we just watch and enjoy them all.

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Old 11-19-2012, 04:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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This show beat Smallville when it put Oliver into the costume in the first episode. And this show hasn't been nearly as frustrating as Smallville was. But that's just my opinion.
And also having a lead that can actually act and carry the show (Thank you Stephen).


As much grief as I give Laurel, shes still much more tolerable than Lana and Chloe.

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I think the producers of Smallville missed the point of the show too then. They had him already virtually Superman in all but costume and name by the end, and he took so damn long to learn how to fly. He had met virtually everyone he should've met as Superman and hit most of the major milestones, and yet he still wasn't Superman.
It's called quantity over quality. One of the show's many failings. It stretched it's premise out way too long beyond it's relevance.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:09 PM   #35
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

At the moment Laurel really does seem just like Lois. She's practically playing that kind of role. I don't see her as Black Canary at all. What's her explanation later for using the name Dinah (if in fact she does)?

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:18 PM   #36
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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Please. Like Joss Whedon's ever had a bad show. It may not last (Might be different on ABC than on Fox, though) but with Whedon's track record of quŗlity I'm pretty sure this show will be good even if it lasts two episodes.

Plus it's not a show created to replace Smallville so we probably won't be seeing it ripoff that drama style and even if it did Whedon's proven to be awesome with that stuff.
I haven't like much of what Whedon has done for TV Buffy and Angel are far worse on melodrama than Smallville and Arrow combined. When i was a teenager watching it, it was okay but as an adult its unbearable to watch. So save me the Whedon walks on water routine because thats bs. While I'm on Whedon, Avengers if I didn't know who directed it I could of swore it was Michael Bay except Bay would of shot it better.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:24 PM   #37
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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At the moment Laurel really does seem just like Lois. She's practically playing that kind of role. I don't see her as Black Canary at all. What's her explanation later for using the name Dinah (if in fact she does)?
She's Rachel Dawes basically.

She's Oliver's childhood friend that has grown apart from him but still loves him.

They basically just took the Rachel character and named her 'Laurel' and changed basically everything to do with Dinah Lance.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:33 PM   #38
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Rachel and Laurel have similarities (lawyers, childhood friend) no doubt but they are different. Laurel has more edge to her than Rachel Dawes ever did. Laurel is not really the danzel in distress where she is getting saved all the time. I can see where her character is going and I like it. I also have some hope that when we finally meet her mom she'll probably be a vigilante which might inspire Laurel to do the same.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #39
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Laurel is very much a damsel in distress. No more so than Rachel.

Laurel punched some rich boy in the back. Fair enough.

Rachel was ready to fight off muggers in a subway with a taser. She was also ready to kill Scarcrow's men to protect the boy, using a gun.

They're basically the same character. They just added the CW drama with Laurel and the love triangle involving her dead sister and Oliver cheating.

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Old 11-19-2012, 05:56 PM   #40
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Ronald Catt, you have failed this city!

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:20 PM   #41
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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I haven't like much of what Whedon has done for TV Buffy and Angel are far worse on melodrama than Smallville and Arrow combined. When i was a teenager watching it, it was okay but as an adult its unbearable to watch. So save me the Whedon walks on water routine because thats bs. While I'm on Whedon, Avengers if I didn't know who directed it I could of swore it was Michael Bay except Bay would of shot it better.
Then you missed my point that Buffy and Angel is melodrama done well. Smallville and Arrow so far isn't. Can the attitude and read the post bearing that in mind. My point is not that Arrow has melodrama but that it's not particularly engaging. If you don't like Whedon, great, you're not the first. Just pointing out that SHIELD will probably suck for a minority and be awesome for a majority like the rest of his work.

Melodrama isn't a negative. Whedon's just the standard for me for good melodrama in an action show.

EDIT: Mixing up my replies to people. Yeah my original reply to you is pretty much "SHIELD is guaranteed to be awesome because of Whedon" in a nutshell.

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:26 PM   #42
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

If only a minority didn't care for his shows and a majority thought they were awesome, wouldn't they have not gotten cancelled?

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:33 PM   #43
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

That's out of the people who have watched the shows. Firefly and Dollhouse failed because people didn't even know they were on. I'm surprised Dollhouse even lasted as long as it did. Firefly was a show I didn't know about until I caught Serenity on HBO.

But on a wild tangent now.

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Old 11-19-2012, 06:37 PM   #44
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Laurel is very much a damsel in distress. No more so than Rachel.

Laurel punched some rich boy in the back. Fair enough.

Rachel was ready to fight off muggers in a subway with a taser. She was also ready to kill Scarcrow's men to protect the boy, using a gun.

They're basically the same character. They just added the CW drama with Laurel and the love triangle involving her dead sister and Oliver cheating.
I don't think they are the same exact character at all they are similar but the same I just don't buy that. They are both lawyers true but where they sit in the court room says a lot about their characters. Rachel Dawes's motivation is to uphold the law because the criminals in her city skate past it too often. While Dinah's is to fight for the people who can't fight for themselves.

The "CW drama" as you put it is as much about the kinda of person Oliver WAS than it is about Laurel really. It is one of the despicable acts you could ever do to someone you love. Cheating is one thing but to do it with someone's family member is a whole other issue. When you think about that, the fact that Dinah forgave him says a lot about the kind of person she is, genuinely good person.

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Then you missed my point that Buffy and Angel is melodrama done well. Smallville and Arrow so far isn't. Can the attitude and read the post bearing that in mind. My point is not that Arrow has melodrama but that it's not particularly engaging. If you don't like Whedon, great, you're not the first. Just pointing out that SHIELD will probably suck for a minority and be awesome for a majority like the rest of his work.

Melodrama isn't a negative. Whedon's just the standard for me for good melodrama in an action show.

EDIT: Mixing up my replies to people. Yeah my original reply to you is pretty much "SHIELD is guaranteed to be awesome because of Whedon" in a nutshell.
There was a episode of Angel where Charisma Carpenter's character slept with Angel's son. Is that melodrama done well ?

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:15 PM   #45
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

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I don't think they are the same exact character at all they are similar but the same I just don't buy that. They are both lawyers true but where they sit in the court room says a lot about their characters. Rachel Dawes's motivation is to uphold the law because the criminals in her city skate past it too often. While Dinah's is to fight for the people who can't fight for themselves.

The "CW drama" as you put it is as much about the kinda of person Oliver WAS than it is about Laurel really. It is one of the despicable acts you could ever do to someone you love. Cheating is one thing but to do it with someone's family member is a whole other issue. When you think about that, the fact that Dinah forgave him says a lot about the kind of person she is, genuinely good person.



There was a episode of Angel where Charisma Carpenter's character slept with Angel's son. Is that melodrama done well ?
Was Whedon even still working on the show by that point?

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:18 PM   #46
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

I do consider the execution of that storyline good so yes. I consider it melodrama done well. As long as its not boring it's done well, I say.

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Old 11-19-2012, 07:48 PM   #47
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I don't think they are the same exact character at all they are similar but the same I just don't buy that. They are both lawyers true but where they sit in the court room says a lot about their characters. Rachel Dawes's motivation is to uphold the law because the criminals in her city skate past it too often. While Dinah's is to fight for the people who can't fight for themselves.

The "CW drama" as you put it is as much about the kinda of person Oliver WAS than it is about Laurel really. It is one of the despicable acts you could ever do to someone you love. Cheating is one thing but to do it with someone's family member is a whole other issue. When you think about that, the fact that Dinah forgave him says a lot about the kind of person she is, genuinely good person

What's your point? They're both using the legal system to fight for justice.

Laurel is basically a rehash of Rachel Dawes. Laurel is heavily based on the Dawes character. She has a greater similarity to Dawes than to Dinah Lance.


The biggest change obviously making Laurel into being Oliver's childhood friend and them having a past relationship.

It's very similar to the dynamic from Batman Begins when Bruce returned to Gotham and reunited with Rachel, minus the stupid sister plot.

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Old 11-20-2012, 06:34 AM   #48
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

The differance in ''Arrow'' to SV is they are using flashbacks in the eps to show how he became Arrow rather than just starting at that and working their way through.Though in fairness 5 years on him on an island becoming Arrow might have been a hard sell..

Also it seems they relized the later seasons of SV with comic villians as opposed to FTW was welcomed by viewers.As for looking cheap ..thats a CW budget for you when you are going to have SFX shots.Certainly there is alot more location shooting than SV had in the end when Metropolis was reduced to one street !!

I actually watched the 2nd ep in Las Vegas at the MGN studies and the feedback I gave for it was generic villian no backstory and too much borrowing from TDK and TDKR.

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Old 11-20-2012, 09:55 AM   #49
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Oh geez can we stop comparing this to SV. The show was good, but it wasn't no life changing show that in anyway set the bar for Arrow IMO. It was just another run of the mill CW show that honestly failed to meet its potential and be what it could/should have been. Don't get me wrong it was good and had some very good and just okay seasons, but It wasn't what Angel or Buffy was for me IMO.

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Old 11-20-2012, 01:10 PM   #50
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Default Re: Arrow General Discussion Thread - Part 4

Episode 12 is titled Vertigo.

Episode 13 is titled Betrayal.

And here's the official description of episode 9, "Year's End".

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ITíS CHRISTMAS TIME AT THE QUEEN HOUSEHOLD ó Oliver (Stephen Amell) discovers that after he and his father went missing, Moira (Susanna Thompson) and Thea (Willa Holland) stopped celebrating Christmas. Determined to make up for lost time and restore a sense of normalcy to the Queen household, Oliver decides to throw the family a Christmas party.

Meanwhile, Tommy (Colin Donnell) asks Laurel (Katie Cassidy) to spend Christmas with him but she points out that Christmas was also her sister Saraís birthday and she needs to be with her father (Paul Blackthorne). Tommy suggests changing things up might be the best way for everyone to heal but Laurel isnít sure her father is ready for that.

Meanwhile, Diggle (David Ramsey) tells Oliver someone is murdering the people on his fatherís list with arrows, which sends Oliver off to face his toughest adversary yet.
Shado?


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