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#101 | |
Side-Kick
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-Bane hates the rich...because he wasn't born rich. -Bane, though we're never actually shown this, really wanted to be at Ra's Al Ghul's side, and resents Bruce for not wanting the same thing he did and working against the league. -And Bane has an unwavering loyalty and love to Talia, and so he does what she wants. So basically: Bane hates rich people because he wasn't born rich. Bane hates Bruce for not wanting to be a villain, for fighting against a villainous organization and is...jealous of him? And Bane does whatever Talia wants because he loves her and is loyal to her. Mind you, none of this is actually explored. How is that not a thin character again?
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"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me |
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#102 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Oct 2005
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As far as the trilogy itself is concerned, the Batvoice should have been handled better. I think Nolan and Bale will look back on this in 30 years and laugh at themselves. The audience 30 years from now will laugh at it too.
The casting and writing for Rachel should have been handled better as well. I never bought into Bruce's relationship with her because the writing wasn't good on this subject and the chemistry between Bale and Holmes/Gyllenhaal just wasn't good enough. He had a lot better chemistry with Hathaway. Maybe she should have played Rachel. |
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#103 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Watching the TDKR Blu-ray rip right now and thinking, "Why not fill up the Steelers stadium for the football scene?" They shouldn't have had too much trouble filling the stadium, either with real people or CGI for some of it.
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#104 | |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
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In short, I think the sum total of everything we learn about the character, while much of it is left off screen and for us to infer and interpret ourselves, leaves you with the impression of a complex man with his own epic journey through life, just like Bruce. Deeply evil, downright barbaric in a sense, but very deeply human too. In fact, Ra's felt like a much more fully fleshed out character too by the end of TDKR. I left that theater wishing there was a spin-off novel to read about Bane, Talia and Ra's...and that's a compliment. So if Bane's primary weakness or thinness as a villain is that he is an extension of Ra's, so be it. I love Ra's as a character and loved the added dimension he gets in TDKR. It actually makes Batman Begins a better movie for me. Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 11-19-2012 at 12:27 AM. |
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#105 |
away for a while
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Completely ruins Begins for me which is one reason I don't hold Rises to a high regard.
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#106 |
Bathman
Join Date: Mar 2012
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I would extend the Bat-Pod scenes a bit.
I would have at least 1 scene with Batman eating something. Catwoman eats the apple, give Batman a bowl of cereal.
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THE DARK KNIGHT RISES - 10 TIMES |
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#107 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
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What ruins Begins for you? Bane's motive?
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#108 | ||
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jun 2002
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This epic journey you speak of is largely unknown. The nature of his indoctrination is largely unknown. It'd be one thing if we SAW, or were even told that Bane had a journey similar to Bruce's, or saw or understood any of his indoctrination, but we didn't. Instead, we're teased and then told how he and Ra's ended up in the same organization, and that he loves Talia, and that he was kicked out. And that now he's Bane. You're right...it's left to us to infer ourselves...because it's not at all present in the film. Any depth or story detail possible for the character is just completely glossed over in favor of building to a melodramatic twist. Bane is more or less a fully formed but barely fleshed out, evil person. He just IS evil and sadistic. Why? Who the hell knows? He just IS a terrorist. Why? Who the hell knows? He just IS devoted to Talia. Why? Because he was. This is what I mean by thin. Quote:
He's largely reduced to his actions, the initially presented motivations behind his actions are both thinly handled and not apparently, by his own admission, an actual key motivation he has, and then there are a couple of expository passages about his past that turn out not really to be about him for the most part. There was a fascinating character to be had here. They just didn't get to that point. We only saw glimpses of it. Which is a shame.
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"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me Last edited by The Guard; 11-19-2012 at 02:17 PM. |
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#109 | ||
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
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In the Nolan movies, most of the villains function as forces of nature / archetypal figures. The Joker and Bane are both Satanic sort of archvillain figures who attempt to push the hero to his limits and destroy him ("speak of the devil..."). They seemingly come out of nowhere, are both animalistic (Joker is a "mad dog," Bane a growling, muzzled beast). Nolan isn't making a Sam Raimi Spider-Man film here (not knocking those, btw). The story here isn't as focused on the villains. It is the effect that they have upon the hero and how he overcomes them that matters in the film. Even Talia is simply a force of nature in a way - she is the cutting betrayal that comes out of nowhere for Bruce, albeit too late in the story to be really effective IMO. See, I don't have to know all this stuff about Bane, just like I didn't have to for the Joker. It isn't necessary in order for Bane to be an effective villain, in my opinion.
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#110 | |
Side-Kick
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I personally was a big fan of getting vague pieces of the characters' pasts that you can match with how they handle situations in the film. IMO this is a great example of getting an idea of a character and his motivations without beating it over the head. And to the comment that Bane 'just IS evil', the answer is simple - he isn't. His moral code is just different than Bruce's. No Nolan character is as simple as that. That's why it's important that Bane, a man born in an environment that had very little chance of turning out 'nice', saves Talia, an innocent, and takes the responsibility of her safety upon himself. He isn't just a terrorist for no reason, he is because he has seen the horrors of those with power using it unjustly (much like Bruce). Keep in mind both Bane and Bruce operate in ways that are considered illegal, but their methods make them either a hero or a villain. Either way, their goal is to clean Gotham's system of corruption, a noble goal in itself.
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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle Last edited by TheBat812; 11-19-2012 at 02:28 PM. |
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#111 |
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I have seen The World is Not Enough. Do I think TDKR should have been like that with Talia being the main love interest and then revealing she was bad in the second act like some fans want? Not really. The twist does work better right at the end and the other love interest doesn't get screwed over if you do it like that.
My thoughts on those who wish the twist came sooner in the movie.
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#112 | ||
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If it's the effect the villain has, and not the villain themself that matters, then why even bother to contest whether they're a complex or well written character...since it supposedly doesn't matter? The Joker, regardless of the idea that he was a force of nature, had fairly clear and relevant motivations that did not rely on another character's. The Joker had a clear reason for doing what he did. The Joker, as a force of nature, also works because he was well conceived and well executed. Quote:
But some level of exploration is neccessary for Bane to be an interesting or a complex character. Otherwise he's just a basic concept.
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"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me Last edited by The Guard; 11-19-2012 at 02:46 PM. |
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#113 | |||||
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
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Secondly, a character who operates as a force of nature is not an abstract basic concept. Complexity is not a requirement for a character to be interesting - what is required is that the character works well within the story as a whole. Sometimes that necessitates complexity, sometimes it doesn't - sometimes undue complexity weighs the story down too much and distracts from the real focal points of the narrative. Its a question of balance. With Talia, the balance was off kilter, but with Bane I think it was just fine.
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#114 |
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I loved TDKR, but it wasn't what I had in mind seeing the end of TDK. I thought it was great that Batman took the blame for Harvey's acts at the end of TDK. I just don't think that the story we got in TDKR felt like the natural progression of the story.
- No Dent Act. - Takes place within a year of TDK's ending. (Eighteen months of clean streets) - Batman is still active, but is being hunted down by a special task force (Blake a member). - Bruce Wayne is no more. Batman is all BW has left. - The city fears Batman (terrorized) by him. (Killings) - Bane publicly breaks Batman (seen as liberator). Bruce will still be taken to prison and Bane's true intentions will be revealed. - No Foley. - A more brutal Batman
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"But wherever my grave is... someone's standing on it... waiting on it... stomping the hell out of it. Someone named Bane." |
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#115 | ||||||||
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The Joker's scenes actually deal with and explore concepts, like the nature of chaos, the various components of society, the reception/reaction to Batman, his place in society, the idea of a "better" class of criminal, etc. They form a complete picture of a character and his motivations and desires, instead of a bunch of vague minor details. Bane's scenes? Abstract, melodramatic stuff like "I was born in the dark...molded by it...I didn't see the light until I was a grown man, and by then it was nothing to me but blinding", and that he learned the truth about despair by hoping...which explains how he knows to torture others with that knowledge, so we know he's a torturer, but not how he became a person who would do that…and a bunch of secondhand innuendo about a legend that Bane climbed out of a prison...which turns out not to be about Bane at all. Oh, and he punishes the rich...because he hates them for some reason. Quote:
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"Perception is the enemy of reason." -Me Last edited by The Guard; 11-19-2012 at 03:09 PM. |
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#116 | |
2005/2008/2012
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I remember in the Empire article in December Nolan says that he adds his reputation as murder to his tasctics but I never saw this in the film at all....
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The above is MY OPINION and ONLY my opinion please do not think of it as fact or a statement of fact it is merely what I feel. Psychic though? That sounds like something out of science-fiction. We live in a spaceship, dear. |
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#117 |
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The fact that the ambiguity about Ra's was removed. I liked how I saw Ra's in Begins, Rises changed everything and did exactly what I feared it would, it told me I was viewing it wrong for 7 years - and I hate that. I haven't watch Begins since Rises and quite frankly I'm not all that keen too.
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#118 | ||
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
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I can only think of two things - 1) the warlord's daughter backstory and 2) the fact that Ra's isn't actually immortal (which I guess could be viewed as ambiguous in Begins). One of those?
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#119 |
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Whether his beard would always look as good as it did in BATMAN BEGINS.
The nature of his immortality. Whether he was actually immortal, or whether it was just the idea of an immortal concept/legacy.
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#120 | ||||||
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"Not all"? No character “requires” a great deal of complexity. I don’t see how that’s even a relevant statement here. The complaints about the previous franchise with regard to unbalanced execution were that the villains received too much characterization…compared to Bruce/Batman, and that they took center stage compared to Bruce/Batman. Not that they received characterization period. Seeing as how this franchise doesn’t have that problem (as much), I don’t see how this is a valid reason for Bane being a thin character in this franchise. Quote:
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The Joker quite obviously wanted to stir things up, to create chaos, and to show that under enough strain, pressure and despair, people crack and go crazy, turn to violence, etc. Essentially, The Joker wanted to see what people would do when the chips were down. It was all one big social experiment. He was trying to break Gotham’s spirit. He says as much to Batman. And he also wanted to create a better class of criminal because he was apparently disgusted about how shallow the current class of criminal was. I never said he was a complex character, though he was certainly a better executed character than Bane. Quote:
By saying “We don’t NEED to know anything” I mean just that, we, as ourselves, don’t NEED to know anything. There are no imperatives that we must know anything in particular. But in order to have an interesting or a complex character come into existence, then yes, there must (there needs to be) some kind of exploration of that character. And there was, with Bane. Just not much. Quote:
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#121 | |||||||
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#122 | ||||
2 sexy 4 a stormtrooper
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The Guard, I think we are talking past each other at this point. Your last comment seems to basically agree with what I'm actually saying while pushing my own statements into tangents they were never meant to go. Its gotten a bit confusing for me as I'm now not exactly sure what your critique of Bane is, as it seems to me you've now stripped away the criteria for the critique and boiled it down to... Bane isn't interesting (because?).
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The point about "needing to know" is simple. It isn't about some "imperative." It is about the criterion for what you call an "interesting character." If exploration of a character is necessary to make the character interesting, then YES the audience needs to know (criteria) something to bring about the resulting interest (effect). Quote:
Anywho, I think I've made my point and at this stage this discussion is getting a bit repetitive. Maybe we should just agree to disagree on this.
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#123 |
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Ha, that's funny because I felt completely the opposite. I thought there were pacing problems the first time, but when I watched it the second time and at home I had no issues and actually thought the pacing very deliberate and effecient now that I knew the story.
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#124 | ||||||||||||||||
Side-Kick
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Because… Ra's Al Ghul's scenes actually deal with and explore concepts, like the nature of crime itself, the various layers and elements of it, his thoughts on punishing criminals VS seeking to redeem/understand them, and his thoughts/observations on corruption. They deal in specific ways that inform Bruce's crusade, like being invisible, learning to overcome one's fear and using symbols to become more than a man. They form a complete picture of a character and his motivations and desires, instead of a bunch of vague minor details. The Joker's scenes actually deal with and explore concepts, like the nature of chaos, the various components of society, the reception/reaction to Batman, his place in society, the idea of a "better" class of criminal, etc. They form a complete picture of a character and his motivations and desires, instead of a bunch of vague minor details. Bane's scenes? Abstract, melodramatic stuff like "I was born in the dark...molded by it...I didn't see the light until I was a grown man, and by then it was nothing to me but blinding", and that he learned the truth about despair by hoping...which explains how he knows to torture others with that knowledge, so we know he's a torturer, but not how he became a person who would do that…and a bunch of secondhand innuendo about a legend that Bane climbed out of a prison...which turns out not to be about Bane at all. Oh, and he punishes the rich...because he hates them for some reason. Bane’s scenes don’t really explore the inherent concepts as well as Ra’s and Joker’s did. Bane is not fleshed out remotely as well as Ra’s and The Joker were, nor is his point of view ultimately as relevant to the concepts of the film as a whole. Partially, I assume, because they tried to keep Bane a mystery for the sake of the “twist” at the end of the film rather than exploring the more interesting aspects of him. Quote:
Bane had a dark past…okay...that’s pretty thin as character motivations go without any more info or exploration of that idea. Quote:
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It’s really not that similar to what was done with Ra’s, because with Ra’s, they directly explored concepts. They didn’t have him speak in nigh-riddles like “I was born in the dark”, etc. They had Ra’s actually talk about his thoughts and feelings on various concepts. Quote:
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Some exploration about the nature of Bane’s evolution into the terrorist he became, not just some scant details about where he was before he met Talia, and then POOF, he’s an indoctrinated terrorist. Perhaps some actual exploration of the concept about Bane evolving into the kind of person he did because of the trials and disadvantages that he faced in his past. Quote:
I don’t really see how you can disagree that we’re beat over the head with Bane’s character and the few motivational moments he has when Bane flat out tells us half of the things he's going to do, does them in a very unsubtle, or another character tells us his motivations or character points. There’s very little that subtly handled in this movie. Quote:
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Some of you have apparently made this leap from Bane saying “And you believe that gives you power over me?” to believing that this means that Bane does what he does because he hates the rich because they think money buys power, or because they use their power to hurt those with none. Where is that found in the film? Quote:
He flat out tells Bruce that all his speeches to that effect to Gotham are a ruse to keep Gotham “in line” while he waits to destroy it. Quote:
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#125 |
Vous
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I wouldn't have rushed in Talia's role. But that's just me.
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I'M WIDE AWAKE.
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