The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > SHH Community > Politics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-18-2012, 11:03 PM   #776
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,786
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
Are you a time traveler from the 70s?
The border between Asia and Africa is the western end of the Sinai peninsula, around the Suez Canal. Which is in Egypt.
Are you a cartographer?

If Egypt is where Africa ends, and Israel is where Asia starts, then Israel is the border between Africa and Asia. Everything East of the Gulf of Aqaba is still Asia, right?

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:10 PM   #777
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Are you a cartographer?

If Egypt is where Africa ends,
and Israel is where Asia starts, then Israel is the border between Africa and Asia. Everything East of the Gulf of Aqaba is still Asia, right?
Africa ends in Egypt's borders. Same place where Asia starts. It's like Russia or Türkey.

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:14 PM   #778
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I really doubt anyone wanted to stay in Germany after the German people just tried to (and nearly succeeded) in murdering them all.

Not to mention the fact that Germany went through a few things between World War II and now.
I didn't say stay in Germany, I said carve a country out of Germany. As in take a part of Germany, make the Germans move out and have Jewish people move in and then make that independent state. At one point the British were suggesting East Prussia as a Jewish state after the war. Who is ultimately responsible for the Holocaust and thus who should be punished?

The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:17 PM   #779
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,786
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Why are we arguing about the demarkation of Africa and Asia?

Fine, Israel does not border Northeastern Africa.

I blame the Great Rift Valley.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:19 PM   #780
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,786
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
I didn't say stay in Germany, I said carve a country out of Germany. As in take a part of Germany, make the Germans move out and have Jewish people move in and then make that independent state. At one point the British were suggesting East Prussia as a Jewish state after the war. Who is ultimately responsible for the Holocaust and thus who should be punished?
So, trade Palestinians for Prussians. And where would the Soviet Empire fit into all this?

As for who is ultimately responsible, the Jews could knock on quite a few doors...

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:28 PM   #781
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
So, trade Palestinians for Prussians. And where would the Soviet Empire fit into all this?

As for who is ultimately responsible, the Jews could knock on quite a few doors...
Well that idea was before the Russians took over the Eastern part of Germany.

But who ran the death camps, who were the guards, who were the administrators, who were the scientists who experimented on people? Who is Ultimately Responsible for the Holocaust? If Germany is ultimately responsible for the Holocaust, then isn't only fair that a Jewish state be taken from their territory? I do think the Palestinians do have a legitimate gripe, because they were punished for Hitler's crimes. Its too late to change things now, but perhaps that would have been a better path.

The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-18-2012, 11:33 PM   #782
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,786
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Of course Germany was responsible for the holocaust. But in 1945, most Jews wanted to get as far away from Germany as possible. For obvious reasons. Maybe in some parallel universe, the Israelis decided to take... let's say Hesse. But at the time, that wasn't a realistic option.

You may want to read up on a prominent Palestinian leader named Amin al-Husseini. He was Grand Mufti of Palestine, and wanted to bring the holocaust to the Levant before Israel was even inaugurated.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #783
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
I do think the Palestinians do have a legitimate gripe, because they were punished for Hitler's crimes.
I'm really tired of this "punished for Hitler's crimes" argument. They Fled the territory of Israel. I alraedy quoted Ben Gurion, who said that the ideal was to have Arabs and Jews living together: "the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and .....his status will not be in the least different from that of the Jew".
An Israeli organization adressed the Palestinians saying that if they left they would "
bring upon.... [them]selves disaster by evacuation".
Does any of this sound like the words of people who would kill Palestinians? Maybe some Rogue Israeli units did, i don't know. But it certainly wasn't ordered by the higher ups.
What's happened post 1967 is in reaction too the Arabs states and later Palestinian Militants attacking Israel and it's civilians.



Last edited by Shemtov; 11-19-2012 at 12:21 AM.
Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:15 AM   #784
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Of course Germany was responsible for the holocaust. But in 1945, most Jews wanted to get as far away from Germany as possible. For obvious reasons. Maybe in some parallel universe, the Israelis decided to take... let's say Hesse. But at the time, that wasn't a realistic option.

You may want to read up on a prominent Palestinian leader named Amin al-Husseini. He was Grand Mufti of Palestine, and wanted to bring the holocaust to the Levant before Israel was even inaugurated.
Except several nations in Europe collaborated with the Nazis and the leaders those nations were more actively involved in the Holocaust then the Mufti was. With the Holocaust, the buck stops with Hitler and the German government, other governments and leaders were involved, but it wouldn't have happened without Hitler and Germany. I am not saying the Palestinians are some completely innocent party and the Israelis are just the villains of this piece, its more gray then that. I can see why Jews would want to leave Europe after the Holocaust and would turn to religion and the idea of the Promised Land after such a dark time. However I still wonder if establishing a Jewish state in an area surrounded by hostile and nationalistic Arab regimes might not have been the best idea, just from a pragmatic standpoint. Its been 60 years and we still have not gotten a real peace deal. The status quo hasn't changed and that region is just worse, not better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
I'm really tired of this "punished for Hitler's crimes" argument. They Fled the territory of Israel. I alraedy quoted Ben Gurion, who said that the ideal was to have Arabs and Jews living together: "the Arab citizen will feel at home in our state, and .....his status will not be in the least different from that of the Jew".
An Israeli organization adressed the Palestinians saying that if they left they would "
bring upon.... [them]selves disaster by evacuation".
Does any of this sound like the words of people who would kill Palestinians? Maybe some Rogue Israeli units did, i don't know. But it certainly wasn't ordered by the higher ups.
What's happened post 1967 is in reaction too the Arabs states and later Palestinian Militants attacking Israel and it's civilians.

That's naive, politicians often say things and a different thing happens on the ground and Ben Gurion was a politician. Its a bit naive to say there were no major expulsions and the Palestinians just all left of their own volition. Sure some did, but not all of them did, that just unrealistic. I am going to link wiki article about this, I know a wiki article is not the best source, but it has links to several other articles and I would rather just post the wiki rather then post links to those articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...torical_debate


Last edited by The Overlord; 11-19-2012 at 01:29 AM.
The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:35 AM   #785
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,786
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

In Germany and Austria the Jews were rounded up. In France the French handed the Jews over to the Germans. Hell, they even handed over the Jewish children to be put to the death (the Germans didn't even ask for them).

Even the more liberal countries like the Netherlands and Denmark wouldn't have been able to accommodate the Jewish refugees. And most of Europe was in ruins anyway. America and Canada were sending people back.

So, really, Palestine was the only option for most.

People seem to forget that anti-semeitism wasn't unique to Germany. The French's treatment of the Jews actually started the modern Zionism movement.

It's easy to say they should have gone elsewhere. But the reality is that they had little choice.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:40 AM   #786
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post



That's naive, politicians often say things and a different thing happens on the ground and Ben Gurion was a politician. Its a bit naive to say there were no major expulsions and the Palestinians just all left of their own volition. Sure some did, but not all of them did, that just unrealistic. I am going to link wiki article about this, I know a wiki article is not the best source, but it has links to several other articles and I would rather just post the wiki rather then post links to those articles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_...torical_debate
And wiki is notoriously biased Against Israel:
http://honestreporting.com/exposed-a...-on-wikipedia/
As it stands now, the Editors in control would never let an article supporting my side see the light of Day on wiki, unless it was a weak one that could be used for there own agenda and it would be naive to say otherwise.


Last edited by Shemtov; 11-19-2012 at 01:56 AM.
Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 01:55 AM   #787
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
I actually agree that Israel and the Likud government in particular are heavy-handed in how they approach the Gaza situation
How are Israel acting "heavy-handed"?
Remember Hamas's rockets are not “home made” projectiles – they are deadly and threaten a large number of Israeli population centers. Gaza’s status as a terror base has also been enhanced as a result of quantities of upgraded weaponry smuggled from Sudan, Libya and Iran, which pose an even greater threat to the Israeli civilian population. Their rockets have been able to go near major population centers Like Tel-aviv.
This is what Hamas's capabilities were assesed at at the begining of the conflict. However, it turns out that the rockets can go even farther, hitting, as I entioned near Tel-Aviv:


And as Hamas notes where their rockets fall that can come up with a way to make them more accurate. They are alraedy getting more accurate very day.

Israel does not intentionally target Palestinian civilians. The IDF takes extraordinary measures to avoid Palestinian civilian deaths.
Israel’s targets inside Gaza are military and not civilian. In addition, the border crossings remain open allowing for the routine passage of humanitarian goods.

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 02:03 AM   #788
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
And wiki is notoriously biased Against Israel:
http://honestreporting.com/exposed-a...-on-wikipedia/
As it stands now, the Editors in control would never let an article supporting my side see the light of Day on wiki, unless it was a weak one that could be used for there own agenda .
One, that site you are linking doesn't seem objective. If someone posted a site claiming that Wikipedia had anti Palestinian bias and the whole site had a pro Palestine agenda, I think you would be skeptical about it and rightful so.

Two, it seemed that like that article was balancing out the various theories on the Palestinian Exodus.

Three, can you prove bias in all those articles that the wiki is linked to?

Four, I just don't think its logical to think almost all the Palestinians would give up their homes so easily. That is just not in human nature, often when when people told to leave their homes by an outside force, many will choose to stay and defy such a force. It just seems naive to think most of the Palestinians just left of their own volition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
In Germany and Austria the Jews were rounded up. In France the French handed the Jews over to the Germans. Hell, they even handed over the Jewish children to be put to the death (the Germans didn't even ask for them).

Even the more liberal countries like the Netherlands and Denmark wouldn't have been able to accommodate the Jewish refugees. And most of Europe was in ruins anyway. America and Canada were sending people back.

So, really, Palestine was the only option for most.

People seem to forget that anti-semeitism wasn't unique to Germany. The French's treatment of the Jews actually started the modern Zionism movement.

It's easy to say they should have gone elsewhere. But the reality is that they had little choice.
But as you pointed out, the Grand Mufti didn't seem to like Jews much himself and there was a lot of Arab/Jewish violence even before Israel was established. In this day and age, you are likely safer as a Jew in Europe then in the Middle East, the Middle East is producing Nazi like propaganda and anti semantic conspiracy theories are very popular. Meanwhile in Europe, its illegal to deny the Holocaust in most countries. The problem is that Israel will always be in some sort of conflict with their neighbors, its been 60 years and the conflict continues. I just don't see how this is working so far, it just seems to make this region more unstable and dangerous for everyone.


Last edited by The Overlord; 11-19-2012 at 02:17 AM.
The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 02:17 AM   #789
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post

Two, it seemed that like that article was balancing out the various theories on the Palestinian Exodus.
What i got out of it was that when the article was talking about non-expulsion based theories, it gave more time talking about criticism of them.

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 02:26 AM   #790
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
What i got out of it was that when the article was talking about non-expulsion based theories, it gave more time talking about criticism of them.
Is there any historical agreement that Palestinians left of their own volition? If there were different theories, it least throws some doubt on the absolute certainty of the theory you presented, that the Palestinians just left due to their own volition. Ben Gurion just isn't a very objective person in this, when two sides are fighting in a war, both sides are going to talk up themselves and their morality and demonize the other side.

The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 06:13 AM   #791
Kelly
The Teach!
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58,783
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Here we go.....

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
… Maya Angelou ...

Kelly is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 10:07 AM   #792
Midnyte_Sun
Medianoche de Sol
 
Midnyte_Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 5,216
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

If the Israelis were so adamant at the Palestinians staying...why didn't they allow them to return to their homes after they fled in terror? Instead Israel demolished their homes, erased their towns, renamed them, and now tell them they should live somewhere outside of Israel.

Allowing even the original refugee Arabs to come back to their homes, would essentially, by xenophobic Israeli standards, equate with 'national suicide.' They simply don't want a pluralistic society because they're not as democratic or as secular as people think they are.

Midnyte_Sun is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 11:34 AM   #793
Kelly
The Teach!
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58,783
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

I think this is an excellent idea....

John McCain Suggests Bill Clinton Should Negotiate Peace In Middle East (VIDEO)

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
… Maya Angelou ...

Kelly is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:10 PM   #794
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,363
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Raw footage of the airstrike on the Gaza media center that killed one of Jihads top military leaders.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Marvolo is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 12:39 PM   #795
floreairfoot
There's a storm coming.
 
floreairfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,735
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

From the AP-

"The leader of Hamas took a tough stance, rejecting Israel's demands that the militant group stop its rocket fire. Instead, Khaled Mashaal said, Israel must meet Hamas' demands for a lifting of the blockade of Gaza."


...Ok then, Israel won't stop either, and why would they? hah

Hamas only targets civilians, while Israel targets Hamas militants who happen to hide among their own civilians.

__________________
For the loot, honey, for the loot.

Last edited by floreairfoot; 11-19-2012 at 12:45 PM.
floreairfoot is offline  
Old 11-19-2012, 08:58 PM   #796
The Overlord
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,398
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by floreairfoot View Post
From the AP-

"The leader of Hamas took a tough stance, rejecting Israel's demands that the militant group stop its rocket fire. Instead, Khaled Mashaal said, Israel must meet Hamas' demands for a lifting of the blockade of Gaza."


...Ok then, Israel won't stop either, and why would they? hah

Hamas only targets civilians, while Israel targets Hamas militants who happen to hide among their own civilians.
I am going to be fair and say the Palestinains are not doing themselves any favors either. Hamas does more actively target civilians compared to the Israeli Military and frankly electing Hamas into government does reflect badly on the Palestinianins. Ghandi had grievances with the British, but he knew that using violence to fight the British would have been futile, so he used non violence resistance against the British. I can't really sympathize with people who insist on shooting themselves in the foot.

The Overlord is offline  
Old 11-20-2012, 01:18 AM   #797
Shemtov
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 3,867
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
One, that site you are linking doesn't seem objective. If someone posted a site claiming that Wikipedia had anti Palestinian bias and the whole site had a pro Palestine agenda, I think you would be skeptical about it and rightful so.
So basically, you didn't read the article and just assumed it was lies because of the site it's on?

Shemtov is offline  
Old 11-20-2012, 02:23 AM   #798
Doctor Evo
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 2,194
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shemtov View Post
So basically, you didn't read the article and just assumed it was lies because of the site it's on?
That's not what he said, nor is it what was implied.

Doctor Evo is offline  
Old 11-20-2012, 11:01 AM   #799
Midnyte_Sun
Medianoche de Sol
 
Midnyte_Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 5,216
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Overlord View Post
I am going to be fair and say the Palestinains are not doing themselves any favors either. Hamas does more actively target civilians compared to the Israeli Military and frankly electing Hamas into government does reflect badly on the Palestinianins. Ghandi had grievances with the British, but he knew that using violence to fight the British would have been futile, so he used non violence resistance against the British. I can't really sympathize with people who insist on shooting themselves in the foot.
I agree that Hamas is not doing any favors for the people of Gaza. Lobbing rockets over to Israel isn't going to win them any respect from their criminal neighbor.

Israel is partly to blame also because it wants to punish the Gazans for electing Hamas by ground invasion, killing civilians, and bombing the hell out of the city and making life very difficult there for them. There are other Israelis, like the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon who think that because they elected Hamas, Gaza should be nuked:

Israel should flatten Gaza like Hiroshima, says Ariel Sharon's son Gilad

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too...There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."

Link: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16239945.html


-

I just don't understand why America, the biggest financier of this conflict has shown little to no leadership in this conflict for over a decade. They just blindly give majority of their aid to one party, Israel, even though Israel has done little to nothing to change the status quo. This tells the Arab world that America does not want peace in the region either, and it wants more settlement expansion, and more oppression of the Palestinian Arabs.

Midnyte_Sun is offline  
Old 11-20-2012, 09:25 PM   #800
floreairfoot
There's a storm coming.
 
floreairfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 1,735
Default Re: Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun View Post
I just don't understand why America, the biggest financier of this conflict has shown little to no leadership in this conflict for over a decade. They just blindly give majority of their aid to one party, Israel, even though Israel has done little to nothing to change the status quo. This tells the Arab world that America does not want peace in the region either, and it wants more settlement expansion, and more oppression of the Palestinian Arabs.
Don't worry, the US gives billions of dollars to other neighboring nations, like Egypt, who stands with Hamas.

Is that anti-Isreal enough?

__________________
For the loot, honey, for the loot.
floreairfoot is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:58 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.