Bane or the Joker?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

How the Joker came to be the way he is has nothing to do with the fact that he DOES want to do something specific. The Joker has a specific goal and agenda. He has beliefs and ideals, and he spells them out in great length in the movie.

People reference his line to Harvey about him not being a schemer and just doing things, and completely miss the point that Joker was conning Harvey to break his mind and corrupt him in this scene. He was trying to claim that just because he was locked up in Gordon's cell at the time of what happened to Rachel and Harvey that meant he wasn't to blame for it. He wanted Harvey to go and kill the others, "the schemers" like Gordon, his Cops, the mob. The ones trying to control their little worlds. And it works. Harvey tells Maroni Joker is just a mad dog, and he wants the ones who let Joker off the leash.

How he came into the frame of mind that Gotham's morals and codes are all "a bad joke" and must be torn down is the mystery element of the character. You're right, it's awesome. That was Nolan's intention. Joker was to be an absolute. But he has a motive and an agenda. We just don't know how he came to have these crazy ideals.

Right, I mean I think we're 100% on the same page about the character. I'd say this is just a matter of how you want to define the word "motive". A more abstract motive I think can be distinguished from concrete, tangible ones that follow basic human impulses like revenge, money, etc. The movie itself makes a point of this when Bruce says "we just have to figure out what he's after" and Alfred proceeds to get all tangerine-y on him.

Naturally, I agree that he has a very specific goal and agenda, and everything he does in the film is in utter devotion to causing chaos and putting people into impossible moral conundrums to prove a twisted point about humanity. But you have to take into account that he still was going to blow up both of those ferries when his social experiment didn't pan out. He's a man of his word but he's still a bit of a nutjob at the end of the day, heh.

Originally Posted by The Joker

But just listening to his two possible back stories, it's not hard to imagine how he got such a warped view of the world.

Agreed. To me this is exactly the same as why it's not hard to imagine why Bane would develop his worldview on western civilization based on what we're shown about his past and upbringing in TDKR. You can get an overall sense of a character without the film spelling it all out. Though I'd still say The Joker is far more mysterious, and once again- this is a good thing. In general, I always prefer a Joker who is written as more of a mystery. When I first heard that Heath's Joker wasn't going to have an origin story I knew Nolan was on the right track.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

I was more into Bane's desire to prove himself superior to Ra's Al Ghul and the Batman.

This idea is usually lost when people do complain over Bane trying to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny or the LoS even being involved again. Bane is trying to accomplish something Ra's never did and try to succeed in something the hopeful new leader of LoS(Bruce) never did, which is to be the successor of the LoS.

[Tequilla]

Motivation Ra's

Characterization All three of them.

Impact Joker

Skills/Talents Bane

[batbax]

Originally Posted by Doctor Octopus

I think The Joker is a lot better than Bane in all of these categories. The Joker had a motive. He wanted to break Gotham's soul. I find that more interesting than Bane duplicating Ra's Al Ghul's work.

And bane wanted to break Bruce's soul. People seem to forget this when trying to make him seem like a ra's al ghoul clone.

[batbax]

Originally Posted by Travesty

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Bane+sounds+like+Sean+Connery

I'm not even close to the first person to think this.

...... That was my point.

[MAKAVELI25]

I personally don't understand how someone can legitimately cite a motivation for Bane without involving doing it for Talia in some way. In the movie he states that he is fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's destiny, yet we are given no reason why he would do this for a man who excommunicated him. Surely if it was about the legacy, the audience should have been given some clue why that legacy was so important to him in the first place. Bane also makes some comments about the rich and people in power, but it is made apparent in that speech to Bruce in the dungeon that he is going to blow up EVERYONE in the city so he has no plan towards that regard. Ra's and the Joker have clear motivations, with what little screentime Ra's had in Begins NO ONE had any problem identifying what his goals were and how they related to his actions in the movie

I don't get why proponents of the movie think we are just randomly picking on TDKR. No one complained about villain motivations in the previous movies, do you guys just think its a coincidence that so many of us didn't buy Bane's motivations in this one?

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by batbax

...... That was my point.

Team Marble Mouth FTW!!!!

[TheBat812]

Personally, I don't see how anybody can legitimately miss bane's motivation. They establish throughout the film multiple times that he has a problem with those who abuse power, and definitely insinuate that this was a view he developed as he grew up in a prison that's hell for the soul. His deranged view is that by destroying the infrastructure and system of Gotham the LOS will be wiping the slate clean as they had done in Rome and Constantinople, allowing for the poor and rich to begin anew on equal terms, as well as it being figuratively destructive of the ideals of Western civilization for the rest of the world who would watch such an event. Just like Ra's. How anyone can miss this is beyond me.

The people who complain about his motivations seem to not understand the mindset of a deranged terrorists' mind, which is weird since it's incredibly similar to both Ra's and Joker. The key to understanding Bane is to see that his story shares many similarities with Bruce's fight for balance in the system, only he's taken Ra's method of needing to destroy in order to create, the opposite of Bruce's philanthropic method he adopted from his father. Alot of the confusion seems to stem from the way they layered Bane's story with Talia's, but I never had any trouble identifying what Bane's code and mission was, even on first viewing, and neither did any of the people I know who've seen the film.

All in all it simply comes down to an individual's perception, so to discredit one view is not very helpful. Let's just leave it at people have different interpretations. The motivation is certainly there, it's just whether or not that is satisfying for you.

[MagnarTheGreat]

I'll preface this by saying I'm more of a Bane fan and not a Joker fan outside of the recent movies.

Motivation

Bane
Fulfilling Ra's al Ghul's destiny on behalf of his love, protectee, and friend, Talia--who inherited her father's organization--she in turn is honoring her father's mission to restore balance to the world and holds Bruce accountable for his death.

Joker
Reveal the city's true character as the same as The Joker himself.

Characterization (Skills, talents, backstory)

Bane
Tough guy with smarts. A prisoner who took a liking to a child and had his body messed up for the rest of his life because he helped her. Came to Gotham to do what Ra's once wanted Bruce Wayne to do in Batman Begins. Bruce left psycho school while Bane was once cast out. Lots of misleading information on the character in the story, including using the "rise" chant to make people believe he escaped the Pit as he is written both as a elaborate decoy to the citizens in the movie and the audience watching. He breaks Batman.

The Joker
Crazy guy who feels a personal connection to Batman. Multiple choice origin that leaves the audience in the dark as to the truth. Seems to be steps ahead of everyone else despite his belief that he has no "plans."

Impact

Bane
Scary monster-looking man who talks a decent amount until the Blackgate/revolution montage scene, then doesn't have much to say in the story at all. Lays siege to a city for months. Goes out like fake Ra's al Ghul death or Rachel tasering Scarecrow in BB after recovering from his beating and tears. Has 3 scenes/locations where he talks with Bruce/Batman and 2 where they don't but are in proximity to each other.

The Joker
Scares the city. Left dangling and chattering, inspires years of fan-fiction as he survives the movie, though no mention of him in the sequel. He takes credit for the creation of Two-Face, who Batman has to deal with the consequences of Two-Face's and his own actions. Has 3 scenes/locations where talks with Batman and 1 vehicular action scene.

TDKR is more convoluted than TDK, for good and for ill. In this case, it leads to a more elaborate or interesting character for Bane. I think loner types are drawn to the Joker as a character as well as his simpler story with a personal relationship of sorts to Batman, while those who want more complexity probably will go for Bane.

tl;dr Bane is more convoluted, complex, or interesting villain and doesn't end up (Batman: "You're alone") like The Joker. Bane's impact dwindles after the Blackgate revolution montage while The Joker's is more consistent to his last scene.

[Anno_Domini]

I actually like that idea that ones who want more complexity would go more for Bane.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

They establish throughout the film multiple times that he has a problem with those who abuse power, and definitely insinuate that this was a view he developed as he grew up in a prison that's hell for the soul

Nope. What is shown is that Bane has a problem with Daggett, we are never shown why particularly. All we see is that Bane is incredulous that Daggett would think he owns him because of the money he has been paid, nowhere is it shown or even implied that Bane has a problem with people who abuse power. Is he not himself abusing power by using his status in the league of shadows to destroy a city that isn't corrupt?

Originally Posted by TheBat812

His deranged view is that by destroying the infrastructure and system of Gotham the LOS will be wiping the slate clean as they had done in Rome and Constantinople, allowing for the poor and rich to begin anew on equal terms, as well as it being figuratively destructive of the ideals of Western civilization for the rest of the world who would watch such an event

None of this is stated or implied. This is flat out conjecture. All we are told is that he wants to make Gotham and Bruce suffer, we are never given a reason why he would target Gotham in particular. Yes it is part of Talia's plan, but what is Bane's reason for having a vendetta against Gotham if not for Talia?

Originally Posted by TheBat812

The people who complain about his motivations seem to not understand the mindset of a deranged terrorists' mind, which is weird since it's incredibly similar to both Ra's and Joker.

And yet there were no complaints about Ra's or the Joker. Clearly you have a greater understanding of the mind of a deranged terrorist than the rest of us.

Originally Posted by TheBat812

The key to understanding Bane is to see that his story shares many similarities with Bruce's fight for balance in the system, only he's taken Ra's method of needing to destroy in order to create, the opposite of Bruce's philanthropic method he adopted from his father.

But why? Obviously he has taken up the reins of leading the League, but why does he feel so strongly about their ideals. The movie clearly mentions that Ra's excommunicated him, unless Bane is an idiot then why would he be loyal to him in the first place? How would the average man respond to a situation where he risked his life to save another man's daughter and the girl's father rebuffed him? Is Bane an idiot?

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Alot of the confusion seems to stem from the way they layered Bane's story with Talia's, but I never had any trouble identifying what Bane's code and mission was, even on first viewing, and neither did any of the people I know who've seen the film.

And yet all you've managed to do is come up with your own interpretation beyond whats in the movie. Here is all we know about Bane:

He grew up in hell (which might explain why he is evil)

He wants to preserve innocence which is why he saved Talia (Yet has no qualms about killing MILLIONS of people, among whom are children)

We are never shown how he films about crime or "decadence", we later find out that everything he says in his speeches to the people are just to manipulate. What is or isn't true is never told to us, attempting to decipher beyond what is explicitly told is using your imagination

He doesn't like Daggett, is incredulous because Daggett thinks he can use money to take power over him

There is an implication that he doesn't like the stock market people, but thats all it is an IMPLICATION.

I'm still waiting for solid evidence FROM THE FILM that Bane had any other reason for attacking Gotham than because Talia wanted him to

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I actually like that idea that ones who want more complexity would go more for Bane.

Of course you do

Because clearly Bane attacking Gotham because Talia wanted him to is so much more complex than the Joker being an anarchist who strives to show that human beings, when subjected to extreme situations, will turn against each other and that our attempts at being "civilized" are a sham.

[JackWhite]

I'm sure everyone else has picked up on this, but another parallel between TDK and TDKR is Batman had two encounters or close calls with both the Joker and Bane before their big iconic showdowns.

In TDK Batman's first run in with the Joker is at the Harvey Dent fundraiser and then at the end of the chase scene during the game of chicken.

In TDKR, Batman and Bane both speed past each other on their respective motor vehicles. Then they both get a quick glimpse of each other on the rooftop when Batman saves Catwoman.

Obvious, but I didn't realize it was two meetings until both the interrogation room scene and the sewer fight.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Of course you do

Because clearly Bane attacking Gotham because Talia wanted him to is so much more complex than the Joker being an anarchist who strives to show that human beings, when subjected to extreme situations, will turn against each other and that our attempts at being "civilized" are a sham.

Of course I do

It's fine if you don't get anything about Bane's plan of him trying to achieve something the great Ra's al Ghul couldn't.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Nope. What is shown is that Bane has a problem with Daggett, we are never shown why particularly. All we see is that Bane is incredulous that Daggett would think he owns him because of the money he has been paid, nowhere is it shown or even implied that Bane has a problem with people who abuse power. Is he not himself abusing power by using his status in the league of shadows to destroy a city that isn't corrupt?



None of this is stated or implied. This is flat out conjecture. All we are told is that he wants to make Gotham and Bruce suffer, we are never given a reason why he would target Gotham in particular. Yes it is part of Talia's plan, but what is Bane's reason for having a vendetta against Gotham if not for Talia?





And yet there were no complaints about Ra's or the Joker. Clearly you have a greater understanding of the mind of a deranged terrorist than the rest of us.



But why? Obviously he has taken up the reins of leading the League, but why does he feel so strongly about their ideals. The movie clearly mentions that Ra's excommunicated him, unless Bane is an idiot then why would he be loyal to him in the first place? How would the average man respond to a situation where he risked his life to save another man's daughter and the girl's father rebuffed him? Is Bane an idiot?




And yet all you've managed to do is come up with your own interpretation beyond whats in the movie. Here is all we know about Bane:

He grew up in hell (which might explain why he is evil)

He wants to preserve innocence which is why he saved Talia (Yet has no qualms about killing MILLIONS of people, among whom are children)

We are never shown how he films about crime or "decadence", we later find out that everything he says in his speeches to the people are just to manipulate. What is or isn't true is never told to us, attempting to decipher beyond what is explicitly told is using your imagination

He doesn't like Daggett, is incredulous because Daggett thinks he can use money to take power over him

There is an implication that he doesn't like the stock market people, but thats all it is an IMPLICATION.

I'm still waiting for solid evidence FROM THE FILM that Bane had any other reason for attacking Gotham than because Talia wanted him to

Yes, implication is a huge part of storytelling, dismissing it is missing key things intended by the director. It's absurd that you would think otherwise. I'm still waiting for solid evidence FROM THE FILM that our conjecture is illogical and isn't the obvious intent of the director. If there are tons of us who see the same conclusion about Bane and his motivations, so how could we all come to the same conclusion if that's not what was intended by the director?

Let's just agree to disagree here.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Yes, implication is a huge part of storytelling, dismissing it is missing key things intended by the director. It's absurd that you would think otherwise. I'm still waiting for solid evidence FROM THE FILM that our conjecture is illogical and isn't the obvious intent of the director. If there are tons of us who see the same conclusion about Bane and his motivations, so how could we all come to the same conclusion if that's not what was intended by the director?

Let's just agree to disagree here.

It's absurd that you have to blatantly make up things in order to justify your position while I use straight fact, but we've already agreed to disagree haven't we?

[Anno_Domini]

Lol, it seems like you only made this thread to get all Joker answers and anyone who'd say otherwise, you will try to prove that Joker is the better choice.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Lol, it seems like you only made this thread to get all Joker answers and anyone who'd say otherwise, you will try to prove that Joker is the better choice.

Nope, I've said in numerous posts that IMO the Bane characterization is just as good (if not better) as the Joker's. I'm just tired of people coming up with their own reasons for why they feel Bane attacked Gotham when all that's shown in the film is that he did it for Talia. I have no qualms with people being ok with that, a motive is a motive, but we all need to admit that that is what is shown as his reason rather than coming up with our own interpretations and using them as evidence in an argument

[MAKAVELI25]

Bane wins every category except motivation in this one for me. The siege on Gotham could have been excellent if Nolan had spent more time with the actual citizens; from characterization to impact, Bane is a fantastic character. I do think the Talia twist takes away from his greatness though

[JackWhite]

Hmmm, I never felt Bane did it just for Talia. He was far too committed and a driving force for the LOS. I'm still scratching my head somewhat at people viewing him as this soulless lapdog, but perhaps I will feel differently when I see the film again on the 4th.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Bane wins every category except motivation in this one for me. The siege on Gotham could have been excellent if Nolan had spent more time with the actual citizens; from characterization to impact, Bane is a fantastic character. I do think the Talia twist takes away from his greatness though

I wish we had seen the montage of him training. Perhaps that would have smoothed things over for people who felt Bane's balls were "cut off" once Talia was revealed as Ra's' heir.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

Hmmm, I never felt Bane did it just for Talia. He was far too committed and a driving force for the LOS. I'm still scratching my head somewhat at people viewing him as this soulless lapdog, but perhaps I will feel differently when I see the film again on the 4th.

If an argument for him attacking Gotham for any other reason than Talia is to be presented, it needs to be done so with solid evidence from the film. This debate has been going on since the movie was released, no one has managed to find anything to show that Bane would've had a vendetta against Bruce/Gotham if not for Talia. The movie explicitly tells us that Bane was excommunicated from the LOS then inexplicably doesn't explain why he would be so devoted to their ideals in the first place

Again, whether or not this is a good enough motive is up to the discretion of the viewer. But based on the evidence presented by the film, it is the only clear motive presented

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Right, I mean I think we're 100% on the same page about the character. I'd say this is just a matter of how you want to define the word "motive". A more abstract motive I think can be distinguished from concrete, tangible ones that follow basic human impulses like revenge, money, etc. The movie itself makes a point of this when Bruce says "we just have to figure out what he's after" and Alfred proceeds to get all tangerine-y on him.

Indeed, but the point behind Alfred's Burma tale is he encountered someone who didn't have a logical motive like money. He had no interest in monetary gain. This is a foreshadowing for the Joker's scene later on when he torches that huge pyramid of cash, much to the horror of the Chechen.

But we're not talking about whether Joker's motives were logical or sane. None of the villains in Nolan's trilogy had that. Their motives were all crazy and illogical. But in the case of Ra's and Joker, I could at least understand why they were doing what they were doing. They had a belief and a philosophy and it's easy to see why it would make sense to someone like them.

Naturally, I agree that he has a very specific goal and agenda, and everything he does in the film is in utter devotion to causing chaos and putting people into impossible moral conundrums to prove a twisted point about humanity. But you have to take into account that he still was going to blow up both of those ferries when his social experiment didn't pan out. He's a man of his word but he's still a bit of a nutjob at the end of the day, heh.

But if you recall that was a condition of his threat when he started that social experiment; "At midnight I blow you all up. If however one of you presses the button I'll let that boat live".

So he was just following through on his threat. The ferries didn't blow each other up so he was going to kill them both.

Agreed. To me this is exactly the same as why it's not hard to imagine why Bane would develop his worldview on western civilization based on what we're shown about his past and upbringing in TDKR. You can get an overall sense of a character without the film spelling it all out.

But Bane's revolution is all hooey. He told Bruce as much in the pit. It was all waffle to feed Gotham false hope to poison their souls. So we never did get a proper insight into Bane and what he believed in like we did with Ra's and Joker.

Though I'd still say The Joker is far more mysterious, and once again- this is a good thing. In general, I always prefer a Joker who is written as more of a mystery. When I first heard that Heath's Joker wasn't going to have an origin story I knew Nolan was on the right track.

It's pure Killing Joke that multiple origin stuff he tells in TDK.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I personally don't understand how someone can legitimately cite a motivation for Bane without involving doing it for Talia in some way. In the movie he states that he is fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's destiny, yet we are given no reason why he would do this for a man who excommunicated him. Surely if it was about the legacy, the audience should have been given some clue why that legacy was so important to him in the first place. Bane also makes some comments about the rich and people in power, but it is made apparent in that speech to Bruce in the dungeon that he is going to blow up EVERYONE in the city so he has no plan towards that regard. Ra's and the Joker have clear motivations, with what little screentime Ra's had in Begins NO ONE had any problem identifying what his goals were and how they related to his actions in the movie

I don't get why proponents of the movie think we are just randomly picking on TDKR. No one complained about villain motivations in the previous movies, do you guys just think its a coincidence that so many of us didn't buy Bane's motivations in this one?

Exactly

[Beanjuice]

I really can't choose either one, because IMO they both stood out in their own way, but I have to say that whoever thinks Joker had more over Bane in really any area needs a good whack on the head. Joker was a lunatic bent on destruction for the attention he would get from Batman. Bane is the polar opposite of Batman and superior to him in almost every way.

Joker is a street fighter- Bane is a pure bred striker and martial artist. Joker makes use of crudely jury rigged explosives, knives, and stolen police firearms- Bane makes use of military grade explosives, vehicles, and weapons. Joker is manipulative and twists peoples minds based on their insecurities and fear- Bane has a genius level intellect and is a master manipulator, tactical planner, and strategist. Though it's never stated outright, Joker clearly learned the ropes of being a mobster and common criminal-Bane was trained by ******* ninjas.

As for motivation, "cause chaos and get people to kill each other" just doesn't cut it for me. Ruining Batman financially and physically, seizing control of the city, fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's dream to destroy Gotham completely and make Batman witness his failure is a much more sinister, high stakes sort of plan.

The impact they had, again no contest its Bane. Joker got a few dirty cops, punk kids, One conflicted District Attorney, and escaped crazies to put on clown masks and blow stuff up. Bane got the majority of Gotham to side with him, implement martial law , and usurp the wealthy from their positions of power. and I'd like to add that bane succeed where Joker failed in killing the Mayor.

Joker is level 50 max level villain. Bane is level 51.

[Beanjuice]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I personally don't understand how someone can legitimately cite a motivation for Bane without involving doing it for Talia in some way. In the movie he states that he is fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's destiny, yet we are given no reason why he would do this for a man who excommunicated him. Surely if it was about the legacy, the audience should have been given some clue why that legacy was so important to him in the first place. Bane also makes some comments about the rich and people in power, but it is made apparent in that speech to Bruce in the dungeon that he is going to blow up EVERYONE in the city so he has no plan towards that regard. Ra's and the Joker have clear motivations, with what little screentime Ra's had in Begins NO ONE had any problem identifying what his goals were and how they related to his actions in the movie

I don't get why proponents of the movie think we are just randomly picking on TDKR. No one complained about villain motivations in the previous movies, do you guys just think its a coincidence that so many of us didn't buy Bane's motivations in this one?

1. It doesn't really matter that he was excommunicated from the League, Ra's was still responsible for saving him from the pit and giving his life some sort of purpose. In that respect it is just as much about fulfilling Ra's goal as it is about aiding Talia.

2. He also mentioned in the exchange between he and Bruce in the pit that he was going to feed the people of Gotham hope to convince them that they could survive. Making it appear that he was stripping the rich out of their power was just a ruse to get people to side with him, without knowing that he planned to kill everyone.