What's So Bad About Superman Returns?

[BH/HHH]

http://www.joblo.com/movie-news/the-...perman-returns

Cool article on SRs the reviewer here actually likes it, I agree mostly with what he said about Spacey as Lex

[Fudgie]

Spacey was too campy as Lex for moi. Lex needs more an edge.

[BlueLightning]

While I liked Superman Returns, I don't think that it was a movie that we really needed. The film is a love letter to the Donner films, which I think was a mistake. The best part of the whole film was, for me, the part where Lex stabs Superman with the Kryptonite dagger

"Now... FLY!"

Also when he compares Superman to a egoistical selfish god was great.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

While I liked Superman Returns, I don't think that it was a movie that we really needed. The film is a love letter to the Donner films, which I think was a mistake. The best part of the whole film was, for me, the part where Lex stabs Superman with the Kryptonite dagger

"Now... FLY!"

Also when he compares Superman to a egoistical selfish good was great.

It definitely was a mistake but to be honest they'd tried and failed so many times to get a Superman film off the ground this seemed the best idea at the time. It's easy to say in hindsight it was a mistake but at the time a lot of people thought it was a good idea. I do wonder had the execution been better if most people would still have thought it was a mistake but I think it definitely should have been rebooted. Hopefully Man of Steel is the reboot we were hoping for then I'd feel we are quite lucky to have two modern Superman movies.

[BlueLightning]

Oh yes indeed! I have read a little about the development hell that the Superman franchise was stuck on, and I must say that from all of that, Return was the best we got.

High hopes for Man of Steel.

[Fudgie]

If MOS sucks I'll officially give up the ghost on the Supes movies.

[charl_huntress]

If MOS sucks....I will be disappointed as a Superman fan and eternally rely on the good Superman I have available. I will still be fan...just not a movie fan.

[gzilla46]

I don't know. I didn't see it. Maybe MOS will be a lot better. I don't know.

[ThePhantasm]

Count me among those who really enjoyed Superman Returns, minus the act-like-a-jerk Lois and her superpowered kid.

[Excelsior.]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Count me among those who really enjoyed Superman Returns, minus the act-like-a-jerk Lois and her superpowered kid.

Lois was miscast. I believe a better, more mature Lois could've eliminated a quarter of the film's problems.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

Lois was miscast. I believe a better, more mature Lois could've eliminated a quarter of the film's problems.

I agree, alot of what bothers me about Lois was Bosworth's delivery. Maybe an actress more suited to the role could've done that part without making her seem like a *****.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by gzilla46

I don't know. I didn't see it. Maybe MOS will be a lot better. I don't know.

Maybe ya should watch it and then see if ya like it or not.

[GreenKToo]

The fans begged and begged for a supervillain to be in it, WB and singer knew this, but they chose to ignore it and counted on the love of the donner films to make it a success.

The kid didnt really bother me, but I could have did without him.

Lex. I never cared for the casting of spacey as lex. That said, if he had of been written differently, I would have probably liked him.

Bosworth was ok, but just ok isnt good enough.

Routh. I had no problem with him. It was the wrong film, wrong time for him.

They pretty much rehashed the same plot as S:TM. Lex creates a disaster and plans to sell the resulting landmass thats left/created. some of the lines were even the same.

It needed a supervillain, badly imo. Supes should have still went off looking for survivors of krypton.
While supes was gone, Lex should have still stolen the crystals from the FOS, but this time it would have been to make tech ( and we should have actually seen him making it to show his evil scientists side ). Lex would have sold some of the tech off to the highest bidders, kept the best, and then formed Lex-corp from the proceeds. He would have then created metallo as his right hand. He is powered by both the crystals and kryptonite, giving him strength that is equal to superman's.

Lex would even have found cures for diseases and how to stop famines ( sold to the highest bidders of course ) all to gain the trust of the public he hates so much.

He would have sent metallo out to stop small wars, destroying and killing whole armies, and also to stop crime. Metallo would kill all criminals he caught, from pickpockets to murderers....The US gov decides Lex has gone to far and sends a Military force in to stop him, but metallo destroys them. Lex is furious at the attempted attack against him. He sends metallo to the US capital and he destroys it. Society then becomes a totalitarian state run by Lex.

This would be the point where Superman returns. Imagine Supes returning to a Earth 5 years later where Lex is now as equally rich and powerful as a bill gates and donald trump, but as evil as a stalin and hitler, WITH a superstrong kryptonite powered bodyguard protecting him.

Now THAT would have been awesome and my ideal superman film. No creating landmasses here. No kid either. Just Lex and Supes battling for the publics soul and some epic fights between supes and metallo.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by GreenKToo

It needed a supervillain, badly imo. Supes should have still went off looking for survivors of krypton.

While supes was gone, Lex should have still stolen the crystals from the FOS, but this time it would have been to make tech ( and we should have actually seen him making it to show his evil scientists side ). Lex would have sold some of the tech off to the highest bidders, kept the best, and then formed Lex-corp from the proceeds. He would have then created metallo as his right hand. He is powered by both the crystals and kryptonite, giving him strength that is equal to superman's.

Lex would even have found cures for diseases and how to stop famines ( sold to the highest bidders of course ) all to gain the trust of the public he hates so much.

He would have sent metallo out to stop small wars, destroying and killing whole armies, and also to stop crime. Metallo would kill all criminals he caught, from pickpockets to murderers....The US gov decides Lex has gone to far and sends a Military force in to stop him, but metallo destroys them. Lex is furious at the attempted attack against him. He sends metallo to the US capital and he destroys it. Society then becomes a totalitarian state run by Lex.

This would be the point where Superman returns. Imagine Supes returning to a Earth 5 years later where Lex is now as equally rich and powerful as a bill gates and donald trump, but as evil as a stalin and hitler, WITH a superstrong kryptonite powered bodyguard protecting him.

Now THAT would have been awesome and my ideal superman film. No creating landmasses here. No kid either. Just Lex and Supes battling for the publics soul and some epic fights between supes and metallo.

Now that would've been the way to do this movie

I always though Singer missed the boat on Lex, coming back to see an all powerful Lex Luthor maybe even a Lex Luthor loved by the public would've been a far better concept than an ex girlfriend whose moved on with her life.

[Vagosnati]

Everything was bad in this movie.Script,plot,actors,director.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Guard

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

By any reasonable standard, SUPERMAN RETURNS isn't a bad film. Nor is it a really dark film or a morose film. Its got lots of humor in it. Overall its a fairly serious film, with a few key dark elements. The film is very well made. Well cast, well acted, well executed, well scored, and it has very good special effects. The superhero/disaster action is fantastic, the film is beautiful visually and has wonderful emotion, the romantic elements work quite well, and Superman’s burden/dedication is felt. The film has moments of real joy, and moments of real despair.

The "vague sequel" thing, I think people just need to get over some of the issues they've invented to have with that. Its obvious that the film is not directly or completely tied to any previous Superman film, but rather to memorable moments of the existing franchise. It doesn't really matter that Lois didn't remember sleeping with Superman at the end of SUPERMAN II, because in this film, she did remember spending the night with Superman.

Most people’s main problems with the movie seem to revolve around two things:

The first is the fact that it was a sequel to the Donnerverse instead of a reboot. Ironically, more than half of fans wanted this approach prior to the film. Then they whined when they got it.

Then there’s the second issue, the reaction to the modern moral exploration, notably Superman having a kid out of wedlock, failing to say goodbye, and daring to still have feelings for Lois upon his return. This seems to be the most burning issue people have with the film. That Superman isn’t perfect. That he is capable of being fallible. He can be selfish. He can abandon those he protects. He can make big mistakes. And I get that, but I also find the portrayal refreshing and revealing. Ultimately and realistically, he must CHOOSE to be Superman. He is Superman precisely because he chooses to serve as an example of the best of humanity. I find that a whole lot more powerful than a man who just IS good because he is good in the comics. I also find it a little sad that so many people (fans) couldn't stomach this interpretation of the character. Mind you, this is an extension of a character who was shown to be somewhat selfish, human, etc, in the first two Superman films. But showing it in modern terms in a loose sequel to those films was just too much.

As time goes on, its interesting to me that its fine if Bruce Wayne is a flawed individual in the recent Batman franchise and its okay for most people because that's Chris Nolan doing his take on the character, but Superman’s not allowed to have serious doubts or flaws in Singer's film. Essentially, Chris Nolan is allowed to make his version of Batman but Bryan Singer was not allowed to make his, based on a previous version by Richard Donner, who made his version of the character as well. I find that to be a bit of a double standard a lot of fans have applied.

SUPERMAN RETURNS has some key flaws. It doesn’t explore its central concept (Superman abandoning Earth and them moving on) well enough. There’s not much in the way of character development. Storywise, there’s Superman finding his place in the world again and adjusting to a new normal, but not much in the way of actual character development, for him or his supporting cast.

Yes, there could have been more superhero action. But this was a story about a man (Luthor) VS Superman. That was the choice they made, and superhero slugfests don't really enter into that. Even with that, I can’t say it wasn’t an exciting film, because the plane sequence alone is incredible, and the final rescue sequence is also very good.

Not using the opening visit to Krypton was a mistake. Really, the execution of the whole "Superman finds out Krypton is out there" angle is a bit lacking. Originally, Luthor was to be revealed to have engineered the whole thing as part of his long term revenge plot. The final film doesn't reflect this, and should have.

Luthor's plot gets a lot of flack in general, and executionwise, it's not very realistic or very deep, but it also makes perfect sense in context. He has crystals that wreak havoc. He can grow weapons, land, etc. Luthor would very much have the upper hand against the rest of the world with this Kryptonian technology. But that's not the point. The point is never supposed to be just that he is creating land to sell. He's already rich after swindling the old woman.

The point is that the plot is Luthor perverting Superman's heritage to hurt and kill a lot of people and then kill Superman. That is the most important part of Luthor's plan. The land grab is just how Luthor justifies the scale of it. But afterward, it is clearly revealed he has ulterior motives. The land grab scheme itself would be a long term development. The land would continue to grow. The immediate benefit for Luthor is the death of Superman.

The acting is solid across the board. Spacey is fantastic, as are Marsden and Langella and Eva Marie Saint. Brandon Routh is not a good actor. He was, however, pretty much born to play Clark Kent and Superman and so his acting ability isn't really at issue in this film. He was solid in the role, with several impressive moments in the film. He sold the quieter, more introspective Superman of this film quite well, with only minor acting missteps, notably a few sequences earlier in the film. And Kate Bosworth was fine as Lois Lane. She had relatively little to work with characterwise, but made for an appropriately “throwback”, matured and calmer version of Lois Lane. There's nothing inherently wrong with her performance. People just apparently didn't want to see "calmer, working mom Lois".

The beating of Superman by Luthor and his goons is great. A fantastic reversal, and one of the more brutal moments in superhero film/lore.

The final sequence where Superman saves Metropolis is fantastic. Superman lifting the Kryptonite land mass is fantastic, and the way Superman survives the incident is obvious. He's drawing all the power he can from the Sun, and expending all his energy in a life sacrificing feat. Why people have such problems with this is beyond me. SUperman soaking in the sun is a beautiful moment (probably one of the best in superhero film).

As a continuance/closure to the Reeve Superman mythology, SUPERMAN RETURNS is a success. Its not what the character needed longterm, and its a bit of an oddity. Its really a pretty original movie overall. There's a lot of noise made about how it is basically just a rehash of SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE, which isn't true. The plot is markedly different, though there are obvious parallells, and the focus of the story is entirely different. There is not "lots" of dialogue from previous films. A couple of lines, tops.

I would say that despite its presentation of Superman as a less morally absolute character, the film did showcase the key elements of the Superman mythos, it just did it a bit differently and less obviously. Superman's dedication to Earth was shown, but here it was shown as a rededication and a realization that, though he wants a normal life, he has greater duties to Earth/Metropolis and eventually, to Lois, Richard and Jason. Superman was shown quite clearly to be resisting the temptation to go further with Lois, or to force the issue. He allowed her to make the decision about who she wanted to be with. Superman's essential goodness is very much found in the film. He sacrifices his life (twice) to stop Luthor.

And the movie was indeed moderately successful. Whether it made enough money or was ultimately a disappointment or not, WB was going to go ahead with a sequel and developed several iterations of one until two films changed the superhero film landscape and the profit potential of superhero films: THE DARK KNIGHT, and IRON MAN. And eventually, Singer moved on to other projects.

Regardless, I feel blessed to live in a world where we get both SUPERMAN RETURNS and MAN OF STEEL.

I just saw this Guard, and it's a great post. It mirrors a lot of my own feelings on the film as well. You made some good points about its strengths and weaknesses. I will say that my appreciation for the film has dipped a bit throughout the years, and I don't often get the urge to re-watch it, but I still would never called it a bad film.

In the end it kind of wrote itself into a corner by offering the closure it did to the Donner films, so it is kind of an oddity. With any luck, Man of Steel will be what the franchise needs for a 21st century rebirth and will be something that energizes the fans in a way Returns didn't. If that happens, I think people will go easier on Returns in the future because it will exist as what it essentially is- a little bow on the Donnerverse and something of a bonus.

In fact, sometimes I wish the previous Burton/Schumacher films got a fifth and final film to truly wrap things up. The scrapped Batman Triumphant featuring the return of Nicholson could have been something like that. Alas, wasn't meant to be. But if all works out, Superman fans will have gotten a chance to say goodbye to the old franchise and start a new one all within 7 years. That's something kind of unique.

[Victory-Prime]

now, i liked superman returns. sure it had a few hiccups here and there. but, all and all, it was a pretty decent film.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by Victory-Prime

now, i liked superman returns. sure it had a few hiccups here and there. but, all and all, it was a pretty decent film.

It's definitely not the worst comic book film of all-time but it let down a lot if us Superman fans for just not been good enough. They just really went the wrong way with this film but fortunately we have Man of Steel on the way.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The scrapped Batman Triumphant featuring the return of Nicholson could have been something like that.

The Joker was only going to return as a hallucination.

The film would still have sucked, in my opinion.

[BlueLightning]

Not only that, apparently Harley was gonna be on this, and she was going to be the Joker's daughter.

[BatLobsterRises]

Oh no doubt Batman Triumphant would have probably sucked. Nonetheless, I think the basic idea of a Scarecrow film featuring hallucinations of Nicholson-Joker could have been a nice way to put a bow on that series, if handled right. The 11 year old version of me that was dying to see "Batman 5" would have loved to see that.

But yeah, glad things went the way they did.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Oh no doubt Batman Triumphant would have probably sucked. Nonetheless, I think the basic idea of a Scarecrow film featuring hallucinations of Nicholson-Joker could have been a nice way to put a bow on that series, if handled right. The 11 year old version of me that was dying to see "Batman 5" would have loved to see that.

But yeah, glad things went the way they did.

Didn't they approach Michael Keaton about that film aswell? I know fipor sure he was approached a few times after he left the franchise.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Didn't they approach Michael Keaton about that film aswell? I know fipor sure he was approached a few times after he left the franchise.

As far as I know, Clooney was set to reprise the role as I think the film was in development before Batman and Robin was released. It wouldn't surprise me to learn Keaton was approached though.

[Bruce_Begins]

Keaton wanted to do Batman Year One, he has said in the past interviews that he was opposed to including Robin and when they showed him the scripts that had Robin, he left the franchise. He was not happy with the lighter direction they wanted to take.

[Sundancer]

Just saw this again and figured out why it doesn't sit well for me. I tried to view it as if I've never seen any of the other films.

The story seems to really be about Lois or "Not Superman."

Lois is the one who wrote the article about why the world doesn't need Superman. She seems to have been impacted more by his disappearance than Kal-El was. She resumes smoking, has more subtext in her conversations such as at her home with Richard. Lois has just as much screen time as Kal-el (Clark or Superman). She investigates Luthor. She's the one who says they have to turn back and save him. And finally, she's the one who undergoes a character change. By the movie's end, she's about to write why we need Superman.

Kal-el really doesn't do much other than spy, return to his super activities. He isn't as proactive except for his heroic deeds. the scene where he and Lois finally speak shoudl have been more dramatic. Only Lois should any feelings. Routh was fairly an emotional flatline in this scene. He just accepted Lois feelings and did nothing about it.