Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Midnyte_Sun]

It's not about being Anti Israel, it's about getting peace. Depending on Israel for peace is like asking Bernie Madov to be an honest businessman by sending him billions of dollars on good faith that he'll do the right thing.

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

It's not about being Anti Israel, it's about getting peace. Depending on Israel for peace is like asking Bernie Madov to be an honest businessman by sending him billions of dollars on good faith that he'll do the right thing.

May I ask why your metaphor is Madoff?

[Compi716]

More anti-Israel media bias! Woo!
http://blog.camera.org/archives/2012...raelis_se.html

http://honestreporting.com/gaza-child-killed-by-hamas/

[Shemtov]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

Don't worry, the US gives billions of dollars to other neighboring nations, like Egypt, who stands with Hamas.

Is that anti-Isreal enough?

And too the PA:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-l...ian-authority/

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by Shemtov

May I ask why your metaphor is Madoff?

I think he used him becasue right now Bernie Madoff is the the most corrupt businessman in the US history. He even out did Charles Ponzi but given the nature of the conversation, I can see why you would be concerned with the usage him in that comparison since he's Jewish. It makes it come off as an anti Semitic comparison even though its not.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Maybe Hamas wouldn't be trying to stockpile weapons if their ethnic cleansing enemy next door wasn't armed to the teeth.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Shemtov

May I ask why your metaphor is Madoff?

It's the way investors had such blind faith in him to invest their money and all he did was expand his own personal wealth while inflating peoples accounts with false hopes and promises...and in actuality, getting them closer to bankruptcy. The United States invests lots of military aid to Israel, puts all its faith and support towards a Israel in every UN resolution, and praises Israel as a beacon of democracy. Israel repays the US with illegal settlement expansion, electing a right wing party with ties with ultra orthodox militant Jewish settlers, nuclear arms escalation, and helping to drag America into war with Iraq, and possibly Iran.

[floreairfoot]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

It's not about being Anti Israel, it's about getting peace. Depending on Israel for peace is like asking Bernie Madov to be an honest businessman by sending him billions of dollars on good faith that he'll do the right thing.

Did they not give up control of Gaza for the sake of "peace", and what was the consequence days following? Where is Israel the provocateur?

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Maybe Hamas wouldn't be trying to stockpile weapons if their ethnic cleansing enemy next door wasn't armed to the teeth.

No, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They can't kill if they don't have weapons.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

Did they not give up control of Gaza for the sake of "peace", and what was the consequence days following? Where is Israel the provocateur?

Ofcourse. It was Israel's mission from the moment Hamas was elected to power, to punish the Palestinians for voting for them by starting a blockade, getting the US, and the puppet dictator Hosni Mubarak to join in, and as soon as they Gaza lay under siege, they began assassinating Hamas targets, which gave an excuse ground invasion in 2008 which was meant to not only attack miitants shooting rockets, but meant to destroy all civilian infrastructure to punish the Gazans.

A World Health Organization (WHO) assessment of 122 health facilities in Gaza revealed that 48% were damaged or destroyed during the offensive: 15 hospitals and 41 primary health care centres were partially damaged; two primary health care centres were destroyed; and 29 ambulances were partially damaged or destroyed. They also killed journalists. Click for link to article which was noted

[Midnyte_Sun]

Israel-Hamas ceasefire comes into effect in Gaza

A ceasefire between Israel and the Palestinian Hamas movement which governs Gaza has come into effect.

Under the deal, Israel has agreed to end all hostilities and targeted killings, while Hamas will stop attacks against Israel and along the border. At least 157 people have died since the flare-up of violence began last week.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20436699

[Fading]

I know it's purely hope, but I do hope the cease fire lasts this time (which obviously it won't). Was watching a CNN video earlier in Gaza, following a family just trying to find shelter. They finally found it by the 3rd school, while carrying babies with them. Then something blows up 30 ft outside of the school, and all of the kids start crying. Of course on the other side Israel shouldn't have to put up with rockets reigning down on their ppl non stop. CNN also had footage of rockets being intercepted and blown up in the sky over civilian populaces. No one wins in conflicts like this where the civilian populations are taking the brunt of the damage, regardless of who started it.

[Shemtov]

Gaza rockets hit south of Israel after truce

[Kelly]

If a terrorist group was voted into power in Mexico, what should the US do? continue NAFTA? open the border further? pat them on the back and say...hey, well, you democratically voted them in, so its ok that they are a terrorist group....???? any of the above?

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Fading

I know it's purely hope, but I do hope the cease fire lasts this time (which obviously it won't). Was watching a CNN video earlier in Gaza, following a family just trying to find shelter. They finally found it by the 3rd school, while carrying babies with them. Then something blows up 30 ft outside of the school, and all of the kids start crying. Of course on the other side Israel shouldn't have to put up with rockets reigning down on their ppl non stop. CNN also had footage of rockets being intercepted and blown up in the sky over civilian populaces. No one wins in conflicts like this where the civilian populations are taking the brunt of the damage, regardless of who started it.

In an area like that that is so densely populated, civilian population is going to be hurt or killed....they are shooting at each other in an area about the size of New Jersey.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Kelly

If a terrorist group was voted into power in Mexico, what should the US do? continue NAFTA? open the border further? pat them on the back and say...hey, well, you democratically voted them in, so its ok that they are a terrorist group....???? any of the above?

My guess is one of the main reasons they are labeled as a terrorist group is because they do not recognize Israel's right to exist. If half of Mexico was stolen by the Americans and the Mexicans voted a party that did not recognize American territory..would you be so surprised?

[Compi716]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

My guess is one of the main reasons they are labeled as a terrorist group is because they do not recognize Israel's right to exist. If half of Mexico was stolen by the Americans and the Mexicans voted a party that did not recognize American territory..would you be so surprised?

If I didn't know better I'd say you were almost siding with Hamas.

They're labeled a terrorist group because, as Shemtov posted, they do things like this: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...310174,00.html

Oh, and they fire on civilian targets rather than strategic military spots.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Compi716

If I didn't know better I'd say you were almost siding with Hamas.

They're labeled a terrorist group because, as Shemtov posted, they do things like this: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...310174,00.html

Oh, and they fire on civilian targets rather than strategic military spots.

I'd say you side with Israel on almost everything including all these murders as well.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/terrorism.html

[Compi716]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

I'd say you side with Israel on almost everything including all these murders as well.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/terrorism.html

I absolutely side with Israel, but I'm also clear-sighted enough to know an obviously biased webpage when I see one.

Have there been killings on both sides? Yes. Has the Israeli handling of the situation been perfect? Hell no. Is Hamas a terrorist organization that uses human shields and is the most obvious reason as to why peace in the region is so difficult at the moment? Absolutely.

[Dr. Evil]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

It's the way investors had such blind faith in him to invest their money and all he did was expand his own personal wealth while inflating peoples accounts with false hopes and promises...and in actuality, getting them closer to bankruptcy. The United States invests lots of military aid to Israel, puts all its faith and support towards a Israel in every UN resolution, and praises Israel as a beacon of democracy. Israel repays the US with illegal settlement expansion, electing a right wing party with ties with ultra orthodox militant Jewish settlers, nuclear arms escalation, and helping to drag America into war with Iraq, and possibly Iran.

Bernie Madoff is a scumbag, no matter what religion he is.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by Compi716

I absolutely side with Israel, but I'm also clear-sighted enough to know an obviously biased webpage when I see one.

Have there been killings on both sides? Yes. Has the Israeli handling of the situation been perfect? Hell no. Is Hamas a terrorist organization that uses human shields and is the most obvious reason as to why peace in the region is so difficult at the moment? Absolutely.

It is difficult to become efficient at killing specific targets only in a heavily populated city. Sure, I can agree with you on that one. But Israel has had a lot of practice, and they not only went after military leaders, they also destroyed foreign press news stations, killed journalists, protesters, destroyed hospitals and other civilian infrastructure.

Do I believe that Hamas had the right to lob rockets at Israel? Hell no. Do I believe in the blockade and punishment of the citizens of Gaza by Israel and its partners? No. Hamas is not generally well liked..and neither is FATA by Palestinians. They voted for Hamas because lots of people who live in Gaza were people who can't go back to their original homes in what is today Israel. When the UN accepted groups in Palestine are that ineffectual, that has a lot to say about Hamas's competitors that Israel would want to negotiate with. What did they really accomplish anyways?

In 50 years, Israel divided the West Bank into besieged cantons and is working diligently to get as many Jewish settlers into East Jerusalem, while at the same time, Israel has stripped Palestinian in Jerusalem of their residency right in their city, and turned Gaza into a prison. This is all while the leadership in Israel is in cahoots with aggressive Israeli expansionists who want more settlements. What has the UN-accepted Palestinian authority done since then? They tried getting their UN status upgraded and the US vetoed it.

What Israel is doing is a crime that they may have gotten away with in the 19th century like the US did against the Native Americans and Mexicans, but in this century, they will need come back down to reality...and I'm not talking about Gilad Sharon's idea to nuke Gaza and murder everybody.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Shemtov

So basically, you didn't read the article and just assumed it was lies because of the site it's on?

Doesn't it seem like a double standard to accuse Wikipedia of bias by using article from a website with an obvious political agenda?

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

I agree that Hamas is not doing any favors for the people of Gaza. Lobbing rockets over to Israel isn't going to win them any respect from their criminal neighbor.

Israel is partly to blame also because it wants to punish the Gazans for electing Hamas by ground invasion, killing civilians, and bombing the hell out of the city and making life very difficult there for them. There are other Israelis, like the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon who think that because they elected Hamas, Gaza should be nuked:

Israel should flatten Gaza like Hiroshima, says Ariel Sharon's son Gilad

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too...There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing."

Link: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16239945.html


-

I just don't understand why America, the biggest financier of this conflict has shown little to no leadership in this conflict for over a decade. They just blindly give majority of their aid to one party, Israel, even though Israel has done little to nothing to change the status quo. This tells the Arab world that America does not want peace in the region either, and it wants more settlement expansion, and more oppression of the Palestinian Arabs.

The problem is I think there some left wingers who say the underdog is always right in a conflict and that is just not true in every case. Salman Rushdie pointed out this blind spot some left wingers have and he is hardly some Fox News arch Conservative. Its seems like a lot of rabid pro Palestinian supporters make the same mistake a lot of rabid pro Israeli supporters make, they turn this into a black and white conflict, when its a gray area. They present themselves as heroes and the other side as villains and thus everything gets oversimplified. Nothing is ever going to change with this mind set in place, real life is more complicated then that.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

Doesn't it seem like a double standard to accuse Wikipedia of bias by using article from a website with an obvious political agenda?



The problem is I think there some left wingers who say the underdog is always right in a conflict and that is just not true in every case. Salman Rushdie pointed out this blind spot some left wingers have and he is hardly some Fox News arch Conservative. Its seems like a lot of rabid pro Palestinian supporters make the same mistake a lot of rabid pro Israeli supporters make, they turn this into a black and white conflict, when its a gray area. They present themselves as heroes and the other side as villains and thus everything gets oversimplified. Nothing is ever going to change with this mind set in place, real life is more complicated then that.

So true.

[Midnyte_Sun]

Even if it is a 'gray' conflict with no true heroes or villains, that doesn't negate the veracity of the occupation, nor the main sources of the problem. That problem is that one party in the conflict is receiving the bulk of aid, bulk of UN support, and the bulk of US political support. That one party is also tied with the same parties that have stalled and dismantled the peace process, one Israeli settlement at a time.

This is a very successful apartheid campaign to push indigenous Palestinians into reservations while the Israelis carve up most of Palestinian territory into their own nation. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, are all caustic reactions to this colonization.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

No, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They can't kill if they don't have weapons.

Hmmm, seems you missed my point.

I'm well aware Hamas is a 'terrorist' organization as recognized by the West and United Nations. I also see that as somewhat bias, although I don't condone the atrocities they've committed. However, if you are not familiar with Hamas, it's not entirely a terrorist organization. That is certainly one wing (kind of like how child molesting priests are one wing to a bunch of self sacrificial nuns) but other elements of Hamas actually do a lot of Arab charity work.

Which brings me to my next point. Most people say they'd rather live in Israel, as would most Arabs, apartheid or not, because Israel is a nicer place to live (I should know, I paid for it ). So the Israeli government is very good to it's own and certainly it's very much like Hamas when it attacks civilian targets ruthlessly for cooked up reasons. They claim it's self defense when they are armed better and far better funded and supported than everyone else in the region.

Isreal doesn't just have their own forces qwelling anti-Israeli elements in the middle east, they've co-opted the interests of the Americans as well as some of Europe.

There's only one nation who hasn't signed the non-proliforation treaty and it's Israel.

Before the state of Israel was artificially created, the Middle East was a thriving Arab land, that was still practicing the religious tolerance of the Ottoman Empire in many places. This has and will always be about the desire of [some] Jewish Political Organizations and some Muslim Political Organizations mixed in with Western imperial interests. I'm not talking about a conspiracy either, it's certainly more complicated than that but Israel is on a crash course to become a very dangerous country.

At this point Israel has killed more Arabs by a factor of ten to one, and these are civilian casualities. Yes, perhaps some of these civilians died by accident, while pursuing someone of actual danger, but at best this makes them extremely neglegent and bloodthirsty.

I find it unfortunately ironic that, in my view, Israel takes on some of Nazi Germany's traits. No, not the concentration camps, but people have to remember that didn't happen over night. A lot of people glaze over that highly important period between World War I and World War II, when in fact many other paths were considered, even by Hitler, before he and Germany arove at the path they are now infamous for.

I see similar things happen in Israel. Israel is the powerhouse, and the problem isn't that they're acting like Nazi's now, it's that they can if they want to, and it may drag the United States into some bad territory we can't go back from.

Israel has nuclear weapons as well, and whether or not you justify it, they are phobic of the arabs in their region.

This, after all, is real.


I'm not a supporter of Hamas by any means, or really into picking sides in violent conflicts, I abhore violence. I also abhore religion, which I more or less peg as the culprit, because I don't think man on man many of these people are truly evil (if there is such a thing).

[Thundercrack85]

How can anyone disagree with Hamas being a terrorist organization? They themselves don't even seem to mind the label anymore.

Just the other day they gave a thumbs up to a bus bombing. Not to mention constantly firing rockets at civilian targets.