Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Its a little hard to believe she would invest in his billion dollar project without meeting him.

All she needs to see is the facts of the project. Lucius can give that.

But believe whatever you want even if it is in the script.

Script and movie are two different things mon ami. Things are put in scripts that don't make it to the final cut.

[kvz5]

IMO Talia has zero (good) feelings towards Bruce. That's probably what most disappointed me with her character in the Nolanverse. I like her character better when she's torn between her love (or at least fondness) for Bruce and her loyalties to Ra's. It adds more depth and dimension to her character.

But I guess they didn't do that since there were 2 female characters in the movie. I'm still wondering if the original plan was to have only 1 female character (because didn't they say that Nolan didn't want Catwoman first and Jonah has to fight tooth and nail to convince Chris?) but they had to split the characterization when it was decided to have 2 instead.

Oh well. It is what it is.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Yup never got any impression Bruce and Tate met until that charity ball. They were like total strangers.

My impression was their first actual face to face meeting was at the ball. Bruce didn't even know her when she approached him at the ball (he had to guess who she is). Also, both Alfred and Fox were insisting to Bruce that she was "lovely" implying that he hasn't seen her yet.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by kvz5

My impression was their first actual face to face meeting was at the ball. Bruce didn't even know her when she approached him at the ball (he had to guess who she is). Also, both Alfred and Fox were insisting to Bruce that she was "lovely" implying that he hasn't seen her yet.

Don't forget though, she approached him holding the mask to her face, but he still recognized her (or her voice).

Also, Lucius tells Bruce Miranda is lovely after the ball scene, and he has the same annoyed reaction as when Alfred tells him prior.

I would guess that Bruce and Miranda have at least been in the same room before (the Wayne board) even if they haven't had a personal one on one convo until the charity ball scene.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

All she needs to see is the facts of the project. Lucius can give that.

Not the most intelligent investment.

Script and movie are two different things mon ami. Things are put in scripts that don't make it to the final cut.

I guess we could ask someone who has the dvd. If...

You have a practiced apathy, Mr.
Wayne. But a man who doesn’t care
about the world doesn’t spend half
his fortune on a plan to save it...
(Gentle.) And isn’t so wounded when
it fails that he goes into
hiding...

This line explains that when they went into the business venture Bruce had yet to exile himself. I am pretty sure I remember the line. I got the impression that he has known her for a long time.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Don't forget though, she approached him holding the mask to her face, but he still recognized her.

Also, Lucius tells Bruce Miranda is lovely after the ball scene, and he has the same annoyed reaction as when Alfred tells him prior.

I would guess that Bruce and Miranda have at least been in the same room before (the Wayne board) even if they haven't had a personal one on one convo until the charity ball scene.

Granted the novel is not the bible but IIRC, it was mentioned there that the ball was their first meeting. I think there was some blurb about Bruce thinking that "Alfred was right after all" when he said that Tate was lovely after he saw her at the ball. To me, more signs point to the ball being their first face to face meeting (which is quite odd given the circumstances (like her being one of the funders for the clean energy project and Bruce apparently knee deep working on it in the first 5 years) but whatever ).

[BatLobsterRises]

Just remembered, Alfred says "She's quite lovely, in case you were wondering."

So yeah, based on that line I'd say their first meeting had to be the charity ball after all. My bad.

[Visceral]

He has been a recluse for a long time

[BatLobsterRises]

Also true. I mean it still makes more sense to me that Bruce would have had at least some minimal contact with her in the Wayne board room before he became a recluse, and if he had no idea whether she was "lovely" or not it seems rather lucky that he'd be able to correctly guess who she was when she approached him out of nowhere with a mask covering her face. Perhaps it was the accent (Tate is a French name)

I'm gonna chalk this one up to a bit of ambiguity.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Visceral

Not the most intelligent investment.

Not the most intelligent movie. Ya are talking about a flick where the Commissioner is dumb enough to send all his Cops under ground hahaha.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Just remembered, Alfred says "She's quite lovely, in case you were wondering."

So yeah, based on that line I'd say their first meeting had to be the charity ball after all. My bad.

Case closed. Charity ball was their first meet.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Speaking of some script/editing changes; there's at least two changes from the old script relevant to the current discussion (the movie is canonical). One is that in the script/novel the fusion reactor project was said by Lucius to Bruce that it was started right after TDK (five years before he mothballed it; he was a recluse for 3 years after that). Another change is that the scene with Lucius and Bruce in the WE office takes place before the charity ball; in the movie, it's after.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

Speaking of some script/editing changes; there's at least two changes from the old script relevant to the current discussion (the movie is canonical). One is that in the script/novel the fusion reactor project was said by Lucius to Bruce that it was started right after TDK (five years before he mothballed it; he was a recluse for 3 years after that). Another change is that the scene with Lucius and Bruce in the WE office takes place before the charity ball; in the movie, it's after.

Man, it'd be really hard to believe Bruce hadn't crossed paths with Miranda in five years if she was the primary investor in the clean energy project.

My guess is they held back on some of these details from the film in order to avoid a more convoluted backstory. Unfortunately, this is why a lot of people come away with the impression that Bruce has been a recluse for all 8 years (even though the movie does very subtly imply that he only became a recluse 3 years ago)

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

Speaking of some script/editing changes; there's at least two changes from the old script relevant to the current discussion (the movie is canonical). One is that in the script/novel the fusion reactor project was said by Lucius to Bruce that it was started right after TDK (five years before he mothballed it; he was a recluse for 3 years after that). Another change is that the scene with Lucius and Bruce in the WE office takes place before the charity ball; in the movie, it's after.

I thought this was mentioned in the movie? I'm really getting the movie, script, and novel details all jumbled together now.

[MagnarTheGreat]

I totally understand why people believe(d) the 8 years recluse thing...not only because of some of the comments from Nolan and others that left that impression before the movie came out, but because the idea of Bruce locking himself away not because of Rachel's and Dent's deaths, but because some Russian guy published a research paper is such a WTF.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by kvz5

IMO Talia has zero (good) feelings towards Bruce. That's probably what most disappointed me with her character in the Nolanverse. I like her character better when she's torn between her love (or at least fondness) for Bruce and her loyalties to Ra's. It adds more depth and dimension to her character.

But I guess they didn't do that since there were 2 female characters in the movie. I'm still wondering if the original plan was to have only 1 female character (because didn't they say that Nolan didn't want Catwoman first and Jonah has to fight tooth and nail to convince Chris?) but they had to split the characterization when it was decided to have 2 instead.

Oh well. It is what it is.

My impression of the whole situation is that Talia not having any real feelings for Bruce in this incarnation is the same reason why someone like Selina Kyle could settle down with Bruce and vice versa; the circumstances presented in TDKR were different than that available for their comic book counterparts.

In the comics, Bruce and Talia met while Ra's was still very much alive, whereas in Nolan's world, Talia and Bruce only met after Ra's had been killed off during his battle with Bruce, thus leaving no room for any real feelings to develop as they were all engulfed by the fuel for vengeance against Bruce.

When it comes to Selina's case, in Nolan's world, she was willing to start her life afresh and didn't see stealing as a thrill but as a necessity to survive. So when she and Bruce finally got together in this film, she didn't have the temptations of wanting to live life as a criminal to break that relationship.

[MagnarTheGreat]

Originally Posted by kvz5

I thought this was mentioned in the movie? I'm really getting the movie, script, and novel details all jumbled together now.

It did not make it into the movie--the five year development time for the reactor.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by herolee10

My impression of the whole situation is that Talia not having any real feelings for Bruce in this incarnation is the same reason why someone like Selina Kyle could settle down with Bruce and vice versa; the circumstances presented in TDKR were different than that available for their comic book counterparts.

In the comics, Bruce and Talia met while Ra's was still very much alive, whereas in Nolan's world, Talia and Bruce only met after Ra's had been killed off during his battle with Bruce, thus leaving no room for any real feelings to develop as they were all engulfed by the fuel for vengeance against Bruce.

When it comes to Selina's case, in Nolan's world, she was willing to start her life afresh and didn't see stealing as a thrill but as a necessity to survive. So when she and Bruce finally got together in this film, she didn't have the temptations of wanting to live life as a criminal to break that relationship.

All very good points. I agree with all of that.

I still think that because of that, Talia ended up being disappointingly underdeveloped and one-dimensional in the Nolan-verse.

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

It did not make it into the movie--the five year development time for the reactor.

Oh... I thought it did. No wonder most missed it.

[herolee10]

Originally Posted by kvz5

I still think that because of that, Talia ended up being disappointingly underdeveloped and one-dimensional in the Nolan-verse.

Oh yeah; definitely. In some ways, I feel like the closest thing that we'll have on seeing Marion play a character that resembles Talia's comic book counterpart more is her character from Inception.lol

I can't blame people for really having expected a lot from Nolan's version of Talia before the film had been released after having seen Marion portray that type of character in Inception, let alone on knowing how great her acting skills was and her rare beauty was just icing on the cake.

It's a shame that we'll probably not get another live action version of Talia for quite some time.

[BatLobsterRises]

I know it probably means nothing in today's day and age where fanboy is king...but, honestly just the notion that we got Talia in this trilogy is pretty satisfying for me even if her characterization was different. If someone had told me 12 years ago that a new Batman trilogy was on the horizon and that it would feature a bookended arc for the al Ghuls and that Ra's and Talia would be played by Oscar nominees/winners, I'd have looked at them sideways. With so many more iconic villains in Batman's rogues gallery you just wouldn't expect that.

Again, it doesn't mean as much today because Hollywood caters to fanboy culture now, but there was definitely a time where that wasn't much of a real possibility at all.

[J0k3r]

Saw this on Tumblr yesterday. I think fits in this topic. Reminded me what Ra's says in Begins about the memory from the people you love become poison in your veins:

Some random thoughts about Miranda Tate Talia:
Talia saw in her father’s death a possibility to prove something about herself: at first, as a League leader, that she was better than him, trying to execute a plan bigger than his father did, and because she survived the pit, a place Ra’s didn’t knew. Maybe she even hated him for that, because accepted his own wife in that hell in his place.
Her angry on Bruce was more like a representation of this feeling. Is like when in Begins, Bruce wants to kill Chill and Rachel shows him that wasn’t the point, there’s a lot behind. Maybe she didn’t cared about Ra’s that much at first, which is already cruel, but when she knew her father chose someone “unknown” that disappointed him after, was a possibility to prove to Ra’s that she was right about Bane, someone she knew, trusted and Ra’s didn’t. And in a certain way was about how strong she still was because was “born and raised on hell on earth”, even after Ra’s death.Maybe Talia didn’t wanted to honor her father’s job, she just wanted to prove she was better than him. Never was about love or something like that.
Of course, again, as a League member, Gotham still needed to be destroyed, but maybe for her, that wasn’t the main cause. The other thing she maybe wanted was prove Bane could be in the group, doing the plan with him, sharing the functions.
Both Bruce and Talia (and Bane, and Rachel, and Harvey…) were victims of the system, something bigger than their wills. The difference between them were how the they chose to deal with all that.

http://batmannocinema.tumblr.com/pos...nda-tate-talia

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by kvz5

IMO Talia has zero (good) feelings towards Bruce. That's probably what most disappointed me with her character in the Nolanverse. I like her character better when she's torn between her love (or at least fondness) for Bruce and her loyalties to Ra's. It adds more depth and dimension to her character.

Exactly

But I guess they didn't do that since there were 2 female characters in the movie. I'm still wondering if the original plan was to have only 1 female character (because didn't they say that Nolan didn't want Catwoman first and Jonah has to fight tooth and nail to convince Chris?) but they had to split the characterization when it was decided to have 2 instead.

Yes, in the making of The Dark Knight trilogy book Jonah says he just couldn't imagine the trilogy without Catwoman in it, and had to convince Chris that she could fit into his vision of Batman.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Just remembered, Alfred says "She's quite lovely, in case you were wondering."

So yeah, based on that line I'd say their first meeting had to be the charity ball after all. My bad.

I completely forgot about that line. Bruce would hardly need to be reminded of how pretty she is if he had met her face to face before, regardless of how long he's been a recluse.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by MagnarTheGreat

It did not make it into the movie--the five year development time for the reactor.

Yes , we dont know how long it was developed. We dont know the beginning. Only the end.

Miranda when she goes see Bruce at the bunker

"No fossil fuels.Free clean energy for an entire city.Three years ago, a Russian scientist published a paper...on weaponized fusion reactions.One week later, your reactor started developing problems. I think this machine works."

After that , he goes recluse.

"But a man who doesn't care about the world doesn't spend half his fortune to save it.And isn't so wounded when it fails...that he goes into hiding."

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by kvz5

IMO Talia has zero (good) feelings towards Bruce. That's probably what most disappointed me with her character in the Nolanverse. I like her character better when she's torn between her love (or at least fondness) for Bruce and her loyalties to Ra's. It adds more depth and dimension to her character.

But I guess they didn't do that since there were 2 female characters in the movie. I'm still wondering if the original plan was to have only 1 female character (because didn't they say that Nolan didn't want Catwoman first and Jonah has to fight tooth and nail to convince Chris?) but they had to split the characterization when it was decided to have 2 instead.

Oh well. It is what it is.




My impression was their first actual face to face meeting was at the ball. Bruce didn't even know her when she approached him at the ball (he had to guess who she is). Also, both Alfred and Fox were insisting to Bruce that she was "lovely" implying that he hasn't seen her yet.

Honestly, that's why I've been saying that I think the movie would have been much better had they cut Talia. Everything she does in the film could have been accomplished with Selina. Except you wouldn't have the twist ending "I'm really Ra's daughter" thing. But honestly, I would have been okay with that.

It would have streamlined the movie, and I wanted to see more of Selina anyways.

[shauner111]

So Bruce was only a recluse for the last 3 years. In the script it says the reactor business was an on-going thing for the first 5 correct? But the movie doesn't mention those 5 years. Since he's been apparently done as the Batman for the whole eight years, i guess you can just say that 5 is accurate and most people can put 2 & 2 together. Would have been cool but i guess they didnt feel it was necessary to mention it since they had to cut things for timing.

When you compare this Talia to the comics, ya she's underdeveloped. But i choose not to compare too much. I'm just happy we got the Al Ghuls bookending this trilogy, like BatLobsterRises says. Kevin Smith said this too in his podcast. It's unreal how far the franchise has come on film.

[MagnarTheGreat]

That was random...

The story, by the numbers:

8 years before before Bruce is sent to the Pit -> Batman's last sighting & outing/injured Bruce begins*; Gordon's "I believed in Harvey Dent" speech
3 years before before Bruce is sent to the Pit -> Pavel publishes weaponized fusion reaction research paper. Bruce confines himself to Wayne Manor after stopping the fusion reactor project
2 years before Bruce is sent to the Pit -> Wayne Foundation stops funding orphan boys homes
6 months before Bruce is sent to the Pit -> Bane abducts and fakes the death of Pavel

5 months before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Pavel turns the fusion reactor into the nuclear bomb after Miranda and Lucius authorize the reactor
23 days before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Captain Jones meets with Lucius and Miranda; the special forces men are hung and Bruce watches on TV in the Pit before making one last unsuccessful attempt to climb out before making a successful one
1 day before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Bruce reveals himself to be in alive and back in Gotham to Selina Kyle
18 hours before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Gordon discusses finding the bomb truck and freaks out when Foley doesn't show up to the meeting
12 hours before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Bruce meets with Lucius and Miranda as Selina Kyle arrives to free Bruce and Lucius
11 minutes before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Time left when Talia figures out her signal to detonate the bomb has been blocked by Gordon
1 minute 57 seconds before the nuclear bomb goes off -> Batman hooks the bomb up to the Bat

6 months before the Lucius meets with engineers to talk about the Bat -> the Bat's autopilot is fixed by Bruce

* Nolan explains in a TDKR special feature that Bruce's leg injury and cane walking comes from the fall at the end of TDK.

[herolee10]