Bane or the Joker?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Travesty

Yeah, I could see that, if Ra's didn't say something completely different in BB. The LOS isn't Al Qaeda, and their motives, along with Ra's, are very different in nature. If they thought the same way like Al Qaeda, they would also be targeting other cities outside of Gotham in the USA, but they don't, and are explicit about stating certain ones in different countries and why...at least, until Bane came back to Gotham, and kinda messed up what the LOS was all about in these movies. The only way I could kinda agree with that article, is if they see Gotham as its own country, which its not, sooooo.....

Yup right on. It's a contradiction of BB.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Travesty

I don't find it "coincidence" at all, when they knew that Bruce is Batman, they financially crippled him, set a trap in order to break him, set up a nice cozy area in Bane's jail to watch Gotham be destroyed, all while using all of Bruce's tech and nuke.

There are soooooo many more things that point to revenge than showing Gotham "whos boss", that it's very apparent. Unless, you ignore the countless amount of things that they did specifically against Wayne.

Yes, but think about it- they also used him. They used his company to get they wanted. They used it as a means to get a nuclear device that's waiting for them within Gotham City. They took hold of his "precious armory" so they could establish marshal law. It's just like how they wanted to use him to get the microwave emitter in Batman Begins. Bruce was selected because of his status in Gotham in the first place. "As Gotham's favorite son, you will be ideally placed...".

They needed Wayne Enterprises to accomplish their mission. We're not shown any comparable corporation within Gotham. His biggest rival, Daggett is into cement pouring. Wayne was the one guy within Gotham who had the resources, and they turned his wealth against his city. The whole point is Bruce Wayne IS Gotham. Attacking one is attacking the other. That's how it coincides. The biggest thing that they do purely out of revenge is keep him alive instead of killing him, so he can watch their plan unfold. If revenge/hatred wasn't a factor, Talia would have had Bane kill him, instead of just break him, just like they killed Daggett when they got what they wanted from him.

It's like how Rachel tells Bruce in Batman Begins, justice and revenge are never the same. The fact that the LOS' ideals are tainted by revenge here is what makes it so evil and twisted. So in that sense, yes I can agree that revenge was a huge factor. But I think Bane and Talia fully believe that their entire plan is bringing justice and is fulfilling the goals of Ra's' global ideals. Similar thing with Two-Face in TDK. His killing spree is driven by revenge for Rachel's murder, but there's some sense of justice there too...he's taking out a lot of the trash and he's giving his victims a "fair" chance, same one Rachel had. That line between justice and revenge is something the films were always exploring, obviously starting with Batman himself.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yes, but think about it- they also used him. They used his company to get they wanted. They used it as a means to get a nuclear device that's waiting for them within Gotham City. They took hold of his "precious armory" so they could establish marshal law. It's just like how they wanted to use him to get the microwave emitter in Batman Begins. Bruce was selected because of his status in Gotham in the first place. "As Gotham's favorite son, you will be ideally placed...".

They needed Wayne Enterprises to accomplish their mission. We're not shown any comparable corporation within Gotham. His biggest rival, Daggett is into cement pouring. Wayne was the one guy within Gotham who had the resources, and they turned his wealth against his city. The whole point is Bruce Wayne IS Gotham. Attacking one is attacking the other. That's how it coincides. The biggest thing that they do purely out of revenge is keep him alive instead of killing him, so he can watch their plan unfold. If revenge/hatred wasn't a factor, Talia would have had Bane kill him, instead of just break him, just like they killed Daggett when they got what they wanted from him.

It's like how Rachel tells Bruce in Batman Begins, justice and revenge are never the same. The fact that the LOS' ideals are tainted by revenge here is what makes it so evil and twisted. So in that sense, yes I can agree that revenge was a huge factor. But I think Bane and Talia fully believe that their entire plan is bringing justice and is fulfilling the goals of Ra's' global ideals. Similar thing with Two-Face in TDK. His killing spree is driven by revenge for Rachel's murder, but there's some sense of justice there too...he's taking out a lot of the trash and he's giving his victims a "fair" chance, same one Rachel had. That line between justice and revenge is something the films were always exploring, obviously starting with Batman himself.

I don't entirely agree with it, but you bring up an excellent argument

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

For me, it all comes back to the LOS attacking Gotham economically prior to Batman Begins. That stood out to me like a sore thumb even when I first saw Begins. Why do that? The LOS were themselves responsible for creating the desperation that led to the urban nightmare Gotham we saw in Begins. It just begs the question of why, and why that method? Why did they want to create all those Joe Chills if it's crime and only crime they hate so much?

It's funny because reality is showing very similar approaches to the fiction of LOS , specially Europe. The reason is not the decadent society in terms of morals or corruption , but it his very much accepted that the model of society and community (regarding monetary policies) need to be reshaped. The method ? Financial restraints that affect the general population , so much that people are getting poorer and poorer. The idea is that society will heal itself apart , and establish at a sustained level. A lot of economical theories , establish that the normal behavior of economy tends to generate a state of equilibrium....but sometimes all it needs is a little push to create a different pattern.

This idea that Gotham is beyond saving in Begins is not a fact to everyone. Its a fact to Ra's Al Ghul. So much that he saw Bruce's father as an enemy to his methods.

With Gothan we tried a new one: economics. But we underestimated certain of Gotham's citizens... such as your parents. Gunned down by one of the very people they were trying to help. Create enough hunger and everyone becomes a criminal. Their deaths galvanized the city into saving itself and Gotham has limped on ever since. We are back to finish the job

Notice how he clearly states the city is in some sort of limp status. A part of it tried to change things. That is also Batman's perspective. He believes they can change by themselves. Not Los. They believe that destruction is the only way to save Gotham. It his exactly the same in Rises. A city that at the surface looks more clean , but it his very much rotten (the inside that starts to bubble up ) I loved the idea that the sewers accepted a lot of young people , because that is the biggest factor for a decadent society , one that cant absorb younger generations (this is very sad , because the world is suffering the exact same problems). Its still limp.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yes, but think about it- they also used him. They used his company to get they wanted. They used it as a means to get a nuclear device that's waiting for them within Gotham City. They took hold of his "precious armory" so they could establish marshal law. It's just like how they wanted to use him to get the microwave emitter in Batman Begins. Bruce was selected because of his status in Gotham in the first place. "As Gotham's favorite son, you will be ideally placed...".

They needed Wayne Enterprises to accomplish their mission. We're not shown any comparable corporation within Gotham. His biggest rival, Daggett is into cement pouring. Wayne was the one guy within Gotham who had the resources, and they turned his wealth against his city. The whole point is Bruce Wayne IS Gotham. Attacking one is attacking the other. That's how it coincides. The biggest thing that they do purely out of revenge is keep him alive instead of killing him, so he can watch their plan unfold. If revenge/hatred wasn't a factor, Talia would have had Bane kill him, instead of just break him, just like they killed Daggett when they got what they wanted from him.

It's like how Rachel tells Bruce in Batman Begins, justice and revenge are never the same. The fact that the LOS' ideals are tainted by revenge here is what makes it so evil and twisted. So in that sense, yes I can agree that revenge was a huge factor. But I think Bane and Talia fully believe that their entire plan is bringing justice and is fulfilling the goals of Ra's' global ideals. Similar thing with Two-Face in TDK. His killing spree is driven by revenge for Rachel's murder, but there's some sense of justice there too...he's taking out a lot of the trash and he's giving his victims a "fair" chance, same one Rachel had. That line between justice and revenge is something the films were always exploring, obviously starting with Batman himself.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Robin91939

YET Bane is honorable and still feels in Ra's' debt for him saving his life...

Where is this shown in the movie?

Originally Posted by Robin91939

While he earned a spot in Talia's eyes, he felt he still needed to prove himself worthy in Ra's' eyes (even in death).

Where is this shown in the movie?

Originally Posted by Robin91939

He would help Talia to do what Ra's couldn't. Proving that not only was he Ra's' equal or worthy of the life that Ra's saved when he rescued him -- but that he was his better.

Where is this shown in the movie?

It's funny how some of us use solid evidence SHOWN AND CORROBORATED BY THE FILM while others resort to writing fan fiction straight out of their imagination in order to back up their own claims

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by The Joker

As someone else pointed out in another thread, this excuse about Bane wanted to live up to where Ra's failed or prove himself as being better than Ra's or whatever, where is this ever touched upon let alone even explored?

Bane says he is here to fulfill Ra's Al Ghul's destiny. That's it. End of discussion in the movie. He's not going to say he's doing it for his friend, Talia, because that would spoil the "twist" of Talia's reveal. Then Talia herself adds further info by saying Bane was cast out because he reminded Ra's too much of what happened his wife in the pit (so apparently all that stuff about him being excommunicated because he was too extreme for Ra's was bull). Bane loves her. Bane was her protector. She is here to honor her father by finishing his work. Bane admits to Bruce in the pit that all the speeches he spins Gotham is just false hope to poison their souls, so you can't believe a word he says about the rich and giving Gotham back to the people. It's all baloney.

Still waiting to hear where the movie suggests Bane is out to prove himself. If you listen to Talia's speech at the end it all implies he is doing it because he loves her. He was willing to die for when she was just a child in the pit. Now he's willing to die for her again so she can finish her father's work.

Quoted for truth

[batfreakforever]

Would this Bruce be able to fight Bane one on one without his batsuit. He did use his scallops on his forearm to break Bane's mask. If Bane also didnt have his body vest on. I like to think Bruce would still win, but punching Bane's mask would stuff Bruce's hands up or maybe he wouldnt win?

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by batfreakforever

Would this Bruce be able to fight Bane one on one without his batsuit. He did use his scallops on his forearm to break Bane's mask. If Bane also didnt have his body vest on. I like to think Bruce would still win, but punching Bane's mask would stuff Bruce's hands up or maybe he wouldnt win?

Bruce would have no chance without the Batsuit. Even in the final confrontation Bane was winning before Batman managed to destabilize the mask, and he only managed to do that with scallops.

TBH- It's also somewhat convenient (or stupid) that Bruce didn't think about hitting the mask in the first fight. Bane DID let him get a lot of free shots, or was it the "fighting harder" thing that made him able to?

[CrypticOne]

Very tough question, for me. I'll have to give it to the Joker. Although I have the categories tied up.

Motivation - Bane

Characterization - Joker

Impact - Joker

Skills/Talents - Bane

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by CrypticOne

Very tough question, for me. I'll have to give it to the Joker. Although I have the categories tied up.

Motivation - Bane

Characterization - Joker

Impact - Joker

Skills/Talents - Bane

I think the fact that so many people are picking the Joker for IMPACT speaks volumes about how poorly the siege storyline was handled. There's no reason there should have been more tension felt with the Joker's ferry plan than a 5 Month siege on an American city

[Tequilla]

I didn't chose Joker for Impact because of the friggin bloated ferry plan. It's his ability to distort the human condition of Harvey.

So no , it doesn't speak volumes about Bane's plans. Joker ones are powerful because they are very depraved , regarding the individuality of characters .That's his biggest impact.

[BlueLightning]

There is not that sense of immediateness. The ferries could blow up at any time either by human nature or Joker's whims, whereas Bane planned for the city to prolong their suffering. It is a similar yet a different scenario.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

I didn't chose Joker for Impact because of the friggin bloated ferry plan. It's his ability to distort the human condition of Harvey.

So no , it doesn't speak volumes about Bane's plans. Joker ones are powerful because they are very depraved , regarding the individuality of characters .That's his biggest impact.

So you think The Joker breaking down Harvey Dent has more impact than a 5 month siege on an American city?

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

There is not that sense of immediateness. The ferries could blow up at any time either by human nature or Joker's whims, whereas Bane planned for the city to prolong their suffering. It is a similar yet a different scenario.

Total opposite for moi. The longer ya drag something out the easier it is to set things right. Like the 5 month siege gave Bruce all the time he needed to magically heal from his back injury, train himself up, magically get into Gotham again and whup Bane's ass.

Joker gave the ferries people a detonator and a tiny deadline to blow each other to hell. Batman couldn't get to them. The Cops couldn't get to them. Joker was holed up in that Prewitt building with armed men, a ton of hostages, and Bats had to take on two SWAT teams to to get to him.

That's tension for moi. That's why Joker's plan was just cooler.

[BlueLightning]

I didn't said any different. I still prefer Joker's plan over Bane, but I don't take merits from Bane's plans either. Bane thought he had truly defeated Bruce, he had no reason to believe he was coming back. It is a classic villain setup, which I appreciated.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Total opposite for moi. The longer ya drag something out the easier it is to set things right. Like the 5 month siege gave Bruce all the time he needed to magically heal from his back injury, train himself up, magically get into Gotham again and whup Bane's ass.

Joker gave the ferries people a detonator and a tiny deadline to blow each other to hell. Batman couldn't get to them. The Cops couldn't get to them. Joker was holed up in that Prewitt building with armed men, a ton of hostages, and Bats had to take on two SWAT teams to to get to him.

That's tension for moi. That's why Joker's plan was just cooler.

Well said.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

So you think The Joker breaking down Harvey Dent has more impact than a 5 month siege on an American city?

To me , as audience , the depravity of Joker has more impact. Its something very personal regarding the humanity of an individual.

To the citizens of Gotham , off course the siege would create a bigger and different kind of impact. If we are talking about actions , Bane has the upper hand . But things are not directly proportional .

One does not diminish the other.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

I think the fact that so many people are picking the Joker for IMPACT speaks volumes about how poorly the siege storyline was handled. There's no reason there should have been more tension felt with the Joker's ferry plan than a 5 Month siege on an American city

'Impact' deals with events afterwards as well. Joker killing Rachel, 'turning' Harvey Dent...these actions impacted in a way that kept Bruce from putting on the cape and cowl for years. If we're talking about the plans themselves, I think saying Bane would be the obvious choice as he's the only one who put Gotham in a state of desolation, but as I mentioned even in the first page, Joker left an impact during and after we see him as Bane only left an impact during the time he walked on the streets of Gotham.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Total opposite for moi. The longer ya drag something out the easier it is to set things right. Like the 5 month siege gave Bruce all the time he needed to magically heal from his back injury, train himself up, magically get into Gotham again and whup Bane's ass.

Joker gave the ferries people a detonator and a tiny deadline to blow each other to hell. Batman couldn't get to them. The Cops couldn't get to them. Joker was holed up in that Prewitt building with armed men, a ton of hostages, and Bats had to take on two SWAT teams to to get to him.

That's tension for moi. That's why Joker's plan was just cooler.

Well said. Not to mention the impact of the Joker was also greater.

A better villain all around.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

To me , as audience , the depravity of Joker has more impact. Its something very personal regarding the humanity of an individual.

To the citizens of Gotham , off course the siege would create a bigger and different kind of impact. If we are talking about actions , Bane has the upper hand . But things are not directly proportional .

One does not diminish the other.

Bane's siege did create depravity. America is what we would like to consider a civilized society, yet people were being ripped out of their homes by FELLOW CITIZENS and thrown out on to the streets without trial or judgement. You also had the fact that citizens were cheering on the sidelines as their neighbors (figuratively) were being condemned to death or exile WITHOUT DUE PROCCESS OF LAW. If thats not depravity then I don't know what is

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

To me , as audience , the depravity of Joker has more impact. Its something very personal regarding the humanity of an individual.

To the citizens of Gotham , off course the siege would create a bigger impact.

One does not diminish the other.

I agree. Joker's plan seems a lot more cruel for this reason (even though both plans are horrific), but Bane's is obviously on another level in terms of scale and impact. In the Nolanverse, Bane will probably go on to have his own chapter in history textbooks around the world.

Also I think everything about Bane was almost directly in blatant contrast with The Joker. Starting from the opening prologue. Joker tricking his men and having them kill each other off vs. Bane's men willingly ready to die for him. The Joker wants the game with Batman to keep go on forever, Bane is by design an "endgame" type of villain. I think these differences were quite conscious on the part of the filmmakers.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I agree. Joker's plan seems a lot more cruel for this reason (even though both plans are horrific), but Bane's is obviously on another level in terms of scale and impact. In the Nolanverse, Bane will probably go on to have his own chapter in history textbooks around the world.

.

Exactly, Bane had to be addressed by the President of the United States. The Joker might be in a few psychology books or newspaper articles, but the siege of Gotham would probably be a bigger event that 9/11

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Bane's siege did create depravity. America is what we would like to consider a civilized society, yet people were being ripped out of their homes by FELLOW CITIZENS and thrown out on to the streets without trial or judgement. You also had the fact that citizens were cheering on the sidelines as their neighbors (figuratively) were being condemned to death or exile WITHOUT DUE PROCCESS OF LAW. If thats not depravity then I don't know what is

I agree with you. But they are in a different degree. He created it by using the social context , Joker achieved it through a more personal way. That's why it has a bigger impact to me. I also think Bane's impact is huge , but very different. Hence why i dont think choosing one over the other speaks volume about anything (well at least the way i view the consequences).

There's a reason Joker is such a beloved and well known villain . A lot of villains create much more mayhem.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Exactly, Bane had to be addressed by the President of the United States. The Joker might be in a few psychology books or newspaper articles, but the siege of Gotham would probably be a bigger event that 9/11

Yup it would, but I reckon the evacuation of Gotham cos of Joker and the National Guard being called in and all of that woulda made big headlines, too.

Ya have to think of how big of effect the J-Man had on the Bat too. 8 years of no more Batman, depression, guilt, sorrow. All that jazz.

Bane's holiday in the pit for Bruce can't compare to that.