The Official Rate/Review Thread for TDKR (TAG SPOILERS!!!) - Part 3

[Anno_Domini]

Ehh, somewhat.

Too fantastical elements are not really needed, imo.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I can't imagine what kind of Batman related activities he was doing in Gotham where nobody could report a sighting of him. Unless he was not apprehending any criminals. Which begs the question what was he doing that required him to suit up as Batman but not go and stop crime?

Well, you've mentioned before that the mob element wouldn't likely just disappear entirely immediately after the events of TDK. If we're being imaginative, maybe he used his "mob murderer" reputation to scare off any remaining mobsters who were trying to re-build and fill the power vacuum. Those aren't the types who'd file a police report after an encounter with The Batman. And that's the type of work he could do without making a big show with Bat-pods and Tumblers. I'm just saying, I think there's an interesting story that could told there about how Batman's career slowly winded down prior to the Dent Act being signed. There's a decent amount of time to play with if you figure that a legislation like that couldn't be written overnight, never mind passed.

It'd be a pretty melancholy type of story, one where you'd really need to be in Bruce's head. Perfect for a comic, honestly.

Originally Posted by The Joker

That doesn't mean what he was doing down there he was doing as Batman. For instance in this very scene you quoted he's using the Batcave and he's not Batman.

To me, if Bruce is down in the cave, doing surveillance on Gotham...even if he's not in the suit, that's still having one foot in the door. Even if Bruce is just keeping an eye on things from that shadows for a while as things slowly get better in Gotham, that's still being a "watchful protector". It's pre-retirement.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Well, you've mentioned before that the mob element wouldn't likely just disappear entirely immediately after the events of TDK. If we're being imaginative, maybe he used his "mob murderer" reputation to scare off any remaining mobsters who were trying to re-build and fill the power vacuum. Those aren't the types who'd file a police report after an encounter with The Batman.

Even in your hypothetical situation you don't have to file a Police report to have a confirmed sighting of the Batman. Nor would it be any threat to the mob to report they were threatened by Batman. Since he is now a wanted man, using the Police against Batman would work to their advantage.

It isn't like before where the Police turn a blind eye to Batman, like the Gotham citizens did, because he was cleaning up their streets. It's a different ball game now. He's wanted for several murders.

I'm just saying, I think there's an interesting story that could told there about how Batman's career slowly winded down prior to the Dent Act being signed. There's a decent amount of time to play with if you figure that a legislation like that couldn't be written overnight, never mind passed.

Well I agree that is certainly a lot more interesting than thinking he was done the night after Dent died. But alas the movie doesn't suggest otherwise.

When you hear how bad Bruce's body is in the hospital scene, you know it would have taken years for it to get in such a state.

To me, if Bruce is down in the cave, doing surveillance on Gotham...even if he's not in the suit, that's still having one foot in the door. Even if Bruce is just keeping an eye on things from that shadows for a while as things slowly get better in Gotham, that's still being a "watchful protector". It's pre-retirement.

Have you ever seen Batman Beyond? When Bruce was actively helping Terry McGuinness, the new Batman, from the Batcave. It didn't make him Batman again. Terry was Batman.

Sitting at a computer watching things doesn't make a Batman, IMO.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Even in your hypothetical situation you don't have to file a Police report to have a confirmed sighting of the Batman.

Perhaps not...I do wonder though, what exactly constitutes a "confirmed" sighting in the police's viewpoint? The line struck me because it could have easily just been "the last sighting of the Batman", but the word "confirmed" there added a tinge of ambiguity, even if it's just police jargon. It immediately made me wonder...well, what about unconfirmed sightings?

Originally Posted by The Joker

Have you ever seen Batman Beyond? When Bruce was actively helping Terry McGuinness, the new Batman, from the Batcave. It didn't make him Batman again. Terry was Batman.

Sitting at a computer watching things doesn't make a Batman, IMO.

I love Batman Beyond, and you're right. That's why I said one foot in the door...I guess what I am saying is it would make more sense for there to be a gradual decline there. I don't think he just closed up shop immediately. Lines like "The Batman wasn't needed anymore...we won" suggest that Bruce didn't think of himself as "retired" until that legislation was passed. I really felt that was the impression the movie was trying to convey.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by The Joker

When you hear how bad Bruce's body is in the hospital scene, you know it would have taken years for it to get in such a state.

Talking about this, I'm genuinely curious about the nature of the injuries. Bruce was being Batman constantly during the period between Begins and TDK. That meaning being hit constantly, and perhaps stabbed and shot. Also taking into account falling from high places, even with the aid of the cape, I'm guessing that could take a toll into the articulations. Not to mention the sleep deprivation.

I'm guessing the limp Bruce has Rises is because his battle with the Joker and Two-Face final encounter. He was limping in the last scene in TDK. That makes me think that one of the reasons he stopped being Batman was the body damage. Added to that, now he was being hunted by the authorities and later with the creation and passing of the Dent act.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

I'm guessing the limp Bruce has Rises is because his battle with the Joker and Two-Face final encounter. He was limping in the last scene in TDK. That makes me think that one of the reasons he stopped being Batman was the body damage. Added to that, now he was being hunted by the authorities and later with the creation and passing of the Dent act.

It can go either way. That could very well be the case, or he could have developed arthritis of the knee and his knee could have gotten worse over time. The doc saying he had no cartilage in his knee jives with that, as with osteoarthritis the cartilage gradually wears away. There's also post-traumatic arthritis, which can develop years after the initial injury.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

What makes TDK so enduring is how it finishes out in the end. Everything in the movie gets better when you realize what Joker's endgame is and the lesson Batman is going to learn in the end. What Alfred tells Bruce throughout the movie prefaces that EPIC speech about Batman being a "Dark Knight". When I first watched TDK I thought it was a great film, subsequent viewings have made me view it as a masterpiece.


TDKR not only makes that TDK ending much less epic than it is (So, a Dark Knight must endure by....quitting?), it also builds toward an anti-climactic ending.

Wow, Bane is an awesome villain. Look how much he is destroying Gotham. Why is he doing all this? Oh, because Talia wants him to

Wow, Bruce hasn't been Batman for eight years. I guess we're going to see how hard it is to get back in the game. Unless he finds a magical brace

Oh my god, Bane is going to take over the city and prevent the government from entering it. I wonder how the citizens will react They'll conveniently be hiding in their houses for five months until everything is over.

Wow, Batman might actually die in this movie. Unless he fakes his death because.......because......


The movie is most disappointing in how it treats Bane. As a villain whose characterization is just as good as the Joker's (IMO), knowing that he would never even have attacked Gotham if not for Talia makes him seem much less cool when viewing it from the beginning.

Quoted for truth.

[roku12]

Originally Posted by regwec

The pit was a brilliant metaphorical thread used to weave Bane and Bruce together; it broke down, in my opinion, when a needless twist was introduced to supplant Bane with Talia in the dichotomy that had been so carefully constructed.

I agree. it was the lazarus pit basically it was done in a metaphorical way.

[BatLobsterRises]

The Talia twist was the resolution though. It showed that Bane is still "stuck" down there metaphorically, while Bruce was able to rise.

[Cpt. Backslash]

Originally Posted by nogster

My biggest issue with the film is regarding Bruce being an injured recluse for 8yrs. Hiding himself up in the mansion.

This just doesnt make sense at all when considering the character and the films before.

But..
Bruce wouldve and shouldve still been active in watching over his city.

He has an advanced computer in a working batcave.
It wouldve been so much better that he became a recluse in the cave.
Obsessively keeping watch on his city and Being similar to "oracle" and helping Gordon keep the streets clean as his silent helper.
You could still have Alfred imploring him to get out and find a life.
"Your'e not Batman anymore".
All this still wouldve worked and it wouldve been more true to the character.
He couldve, wouldve and shouldve still been in decent shape. although out of form. Still keep the battered body scene somewhat. showing the toll being Batman took on his body.

I think he's supposed to be depressed or something like that. Before he came back to Gotham to become the Batman, he was a criminal in prison with no meaning in his life. After the Dark Knight he can no longer be Batman (well, he could, but that would conflict with Harvey Dent as the symbol of good in the city, and Batman the evil).
Having to lie and no longer being able to be Batman, he probably feels beaten and castrated or powerless, and without a purpose in life. The defeat in TDK sends him into a depression. Remember, that Batman has always been his mean to channel his feelings after the loss of his parents.
That being said, I do see what you mean. What you're suggesting could've well too, maybe better. I don't know.
I don't know if you're supposed to analyze the movie to this degree either, but it does make some sense, even though it isn't made clear.

[violetspike123]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Ehh, somewhat.

Too fantastical elements are not really needed, imo.

Nolan Batman was to Realistic for me.

[Chris Wallace]

All I'm gonna say here is TDKR is THE best 3rd act in the genre. So far.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

All I'm gonna say here is TDKR is THE best 3rd act in the genre. So far.

Spider-Man 2.

But yeah, TDKR's 3rd act definitely is up there.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

All I'm gonna say here is TDKR is THE best 3rd act in the genre. So far.

IMO it's gotta be TDK.

I think the biggest problem I have with TDKR is how much potential the whole story had, it EASILY should've been the best movie in the trilogy and the conception was all fantastic, but the execution just wasn't great. The whole Batman returning to Gotham think and the cops vs. Bane's men should've been EPIC. Instead we're stuck with about 2/3 minutes of a battle that occurs awkwardly (mercenaries shooting with automatic weapons yet only hitting a couple of cops, Folies death, shoddy choreography) and then a cliche ticking bomb finale with the Bat flying it away. Then there's the unnecessary Robin thing and the even less necessary Bruce faking his death thing. Obviously this is all my opinion,but I actually liked the first act better than the last act.

With TDK, it upends superhero conventions by having the hero not ride away triumphantly at the end. The Joker's capture was where a lot of people (who weren't browsing SHH) thought the film would actually end. Then you get that sickening feeling when you find out Harvey and Rachel have been captured, hospitals start blowing up, Two Face arise, just UTTER CHAOS. I still think that Batman vs. Swat fight is the best scene in the whole trilogy and I love that the actual climax had Batman, Gordon, and Harvey, such a beautiful scene. I love EVERYTHING about the last 20 minutes of the movie, and that speech at the end still gives me goosebumps. I think TDK is not only the best 3rd act in superhero endings, but one of the best in ANY genre

- With TDKR everything was expected, it follows the action movie formula and is somewhat boring in its execution. I literally wasn't surprised or excited by anything that happened in that finale, that TDK ending is glorious though

[Brain Damage]

My biggest beef with the faking death thing is when Batman tells Selina "No autopilot"

Why does he do this? The only reason I can think of is that he's a dick.

[BlueLightning]

Chris said THE best 3rd act in the genre. So far.
To which I agree.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

My biggest beef with the faking death thing is when Batman tells Selina "No autopilot"

Why does he do this? The only reason I can think of is that he's a dick.

At the beginning of Rises, Bruce has some kind of a deathwish. On that moment, he still has the chance to die like he wanted. But during the film, he changes his perspective on his life, and decides to save himself.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

My biggest beef with the faking death thing is when Batman tells Selina "No autopilot"

Why does he do this? The only reason I can think of is that he's a dick.

Better to keep her hopes down perhaps? I mean suppose his autopilot patch was buggy. No matter what it's still pretty risky to fly a nuke out to sea, might as well prepare her for the worst.

And yeah, Batman is kind of a dick sometimes lol.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

At the beginning of Rises, Bruce has some kind of a deathwish. On that moment, he still has the chance to die like he wanted. But during the film, he changes his perspective on his life, and decides to save himself.

But this was towards the end after the battle with Bane. Didn't Bruce find his "will to live" down in the prison? I'm thinking it was just another way to make the audience think Batman would die, I can't think of any logical reason why he would've told Selena that there was no autopilot in that particular moment

[BlueLightning]

Still, this time he had a personal choice. He was still gonna save Gotham, that was granted. In the Pit, it was uncertain if he was going to succeed. He had to get out of the Pit. The last time is a choice.

[BatLobsterRises]

Maybe it's DAT Bat-Cat kiss that makes him finally make the choice to save himself

[Brain Damage]

He didn't have to get out of the Pit. He could have stayed and died there, and at first, that's exactly what he wanted, even asking the doctors to let him die.

By the time Bruce climbed out of the pit he had made the choice to keep on living. You cannot fear death if you do not have the will to live, and Bruce needed to fear death to climb out of the pit. Thus, mathematicians will tell us, Bruce wanted to live.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by violetspike123

Nolan Batman was to Realistic for me.

It wasn't too realistic, though. It made liberties to fits its own universe if had created, but if it were too realistic, there wouldn't really be a cape in the trilogy, nor a bike coming out of the tank-like vehicle in The Dark Knight, and I could go on, but I won't, lol.

Originally Posted by Chris Wallace

All I'm gonna say here is TDKR is THE best 3rd act in the genre. So far.

Surprised this is coming from you since I thought you enjoyed Spider-Man 3.

But, I definitely agree!

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Spider-Man 2.

But yeah, TDKR's 3rd act definitely is up there.

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

IMO it's gotta be TDK.

Lol.

[BlueLightning]

I think it wasn't that simple though. He harbored that death wish for who knows how much time. In the Pit, there was still possibility that he couldn't get out, and to be unable to do nothing to save Gotham scared Bruce.

I do fear death. I fear dying in here while my city burns with no one there to save it.

Whereas while flying the Bat, it is all done. There was nothing more, he could leave, Gotham was secure. But Bruce gave himself a chance not only to live, but to be finally happy.

[I Am The Knight]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

IMO it's gotta be TDK.

TDK's third act was just epic. It's full of tension, and you feel like anything can happen. Nolan keeps us in this constant state of dread, that TDKR tried to replicate during it's second act, unsuccesfully.

I think the biggest problem I have with TDKR is how much potential the whole story had, it EASILY should've been the best movie in the trilogy and the conception was all fantastic, but the execution just wasn't great. The whole Batman returning to Gotham think and the cops vs. Bane's men should've been EPIC. Instead we're stuck with about 2/3 minutes of a battle that occurs awkwardly (mercenaries shooting with automatic weapons yet only hitting a couple of cops, Folies death, shoddy choreography) and then a cliche ticking bomb finale with the Bat flying it away. Then there's the unnecessary Robin thing and the even less necessary Bruce faking his death thing. Obviously this is all my opinion,but I actually liked the first act better than the last act.

Agreed on all counts. In fact, I think the movie just sort of falls apart the minute Talia reveals herself

With TDK, it upends superhero conventions by having the hero not ride away triumphantly at the end. The Joker's capture was where a lot of people (who weren't browsing SHH) thought the film would actually end. Then you get that sickening feeling when you find out Harvey and Rachel have been captured, hospitals start blowing up, Two Face arise, just UTTER CHAOS. I still think that Batman vs. Swat fight is the best scene in the whole trilogy and I love that the actual climax had Batman, Gordon, and Harvey, such a beautiful scene. I love EVERYTHING about the last 20 minutes of the movie, and that speech at the end still gives me goosebumps. I think TDK is not only the best 3rd act in superhero endings, but one of the best in ANY genre

- With TDKR everything was expected, it follows the action movie formula and is somewhat boring in its execution. I literally wasn't surprised or excited by anything that happened in that finale, that TDK ending is glorious though

Agreed. Although I would say my favorite piece of Batman action is the whole Arkham sequence in BB. It's just beautiful.