Batman reboot: Should it be based on realism, dark imagination, or silliness

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Cain

It feels really random. It doesn't even answer the questions of why he would give it all up in the first place.

Because he hates it. It's even phrased in the movie "Why would a man do this? It's like he's cursed to pay some great penance. Now what possible crime could he have committed to deserve a life of nightly torture?"

I excuse that if the stylistic approach to your film is say an expressionistic one & you're using many other elements to get that point across outside of the protagonist but that wasn't the case; BF was very literal with presenting it's concepts.

"Batman is no more"

"why Bruce?"

"because I killed my parents"

"ummm....ok. So why would that guilt kill Batman now? why has it never occurred to you before almost an hour or so into this movie? and isn't the point of being Batman your self inflicted punishment for killing your parents anyway so why absolve yourself of said punishment if you still feel guilt?"

It's what happened with Dick Grayson that holds a mirror up to his face and makes him see what he has become when Dick says he is going to find Two Face and he's going to kill him. That's what Batman had been. An angry killer.

This is why I don't think it was absolved in Batman Returns because your two quotes that you mentioned never said to me that Batman was recognizing something in himself that he was conflicted about.

But when Bruce sees Dick and his situation, and how angry, bitter, vengeful Dick is, he sees a mirror reflection of himself. That's why he wants to stop. It stirs up the memories in him of what happened to his parents after he sees Dick lose his. That's when the nightmares begin and he starts to question himself and his mission as Batman.

Never conflicted? again it boils down to the stylistic approach of the film. This is expressionistic cinema. You can't expect Bruce to literally dictate "hey man I have a conflict and it's XYZ" because it's not the approach BR had unlike BF. It is something that is projected through the environment in the film, the other characters in the film coupled with the body language and performance of the principle actor himself. It's the ultimate cinematic equivalent to the famous "show don't tell" rule of another popular visual medium; comic books.

Interesting considering the comic books I've always read pepper the reader with narration boxes, thought balloons, and dialogue about Batman and what drives him.

You know how I know Bruce Wayne is conflicted in that movie?

It starts out with the man self loathing in his cave. Obsessed with nothing but his mission as the Batman. Consumed by his beast. Waiting for the signal to come like a junkie waiting for his fix. It's the only time he even feels alive anymore.

Why does him waiting for the batsignal make him conflicted about it? Looking at him sitting waiting for the signal doesn't necessarily spell out he has some inner conflict over this.

To the point that when another sideshow act comes out of nowhere into Gotham he feels threatened about not being the only freakshow in town anymore. He feels that could potentially hinder Batman's stance in the eyes of the public. Rendering his only reason for living at this point to be moot in his eyes.

Where did all of this happen?

As you can see by his reaction to Cobblepot's first appearance and his obsession with proving that he's the only freak in town worthy of Gotham's love by putting The Penguin under a giant magnifying glass. Alfred even literally brings that up through dialogue later on ("must you be the only lonely man-beast in town")

I never interpreted that way at all. He was initially hoping Penguin would find his parents. It's when the reporter says Penguin is standing along side Max Schreck that Bruce smells a rat and decides to do a little investigating.

The circus gang comes back, tries to abduct a baby, Penguin magically comes to the rescue, and Schreck is standing proudly beside him just like that, whispering in his ear.

You also see him struggle with wanting a sense of normalcy in his life again. He's still very much a child emotionally. Scarred and obsessed with his toys including his favorite action figure (the Batman persona) but like every child part of him also longs to be "normal" and not just a "freak". Something he tries to work on as Bruce Wayne by reaching out to Selina and trying to have a normal dating life while still being conflicted with his dual nature.

Since he's so obsessed with the Batman though it proves difficult for him to break through to Selina and "force" normalcy into his life because his own emotional imbalance (his obsessive duality) is something she recognizes within herself later on. It is then when he sees how far gone they both have become through seeing her actions in coping with her trauma that he recognizes his problem. It's why he tells her they're basically one and the same.

I never saw any of this in Batman Returns either. He was more than willing to date Vicki Vale, and sleep with her on the first date in Batman 1989. He never seemed to be struggling with dating Selina. He never seemed awkward. He was the one who made the moves on her by inviting her to Wayne Manor. He went to Max's party just so he could see her. He seemed very eager.

Selina was the one who was the conflicted one. That scene of her staring aimlessly into the store window asking herself why she was doing this. Breaking down at the costume party saying she doesn't know who she is any more etc.

That's a conflicted character. I never saw any of that with Michael Keaton's Wayne.

He sees how his obsession has made him blind to the reality of his world (recognizing that he's not above the law and that he's become nothing but an obsessed shell of a man) by seeing this woman who sees herself above the law and became a shell of what she could've been right in fron of his face. BF even plays around with that which is why to me BF works much better when I watch all 3 movies back to back and not BF stand alone. You see how that realization has affected the nature of this Batman in how he carries himself in BF more clearly when you view it within that context.

You see my problem with that final scene with Selina is Batman says several things that do not make sense. He tells Max Schreck he's going to jail. Why is Max going to jail all of a sudden? Did Bruce dig up some incriminating evidence on Schreck in the short space of time between the party and now?

He says the law still applies to him but he consistently breaks it, and I'm not just talking about killing people. He takes his mask off in front of Max Schreck, a very foolish thing to do.

The whole scene was written like some kind of flowery phony emotion to get Selina to snap and kill Schreck, and Bruce to get maskless. I never got the sense that Bruce had a sudden epiphany about who he was just because he equated himself to Selina.

You may not have seen any of this but I wasn't the only one who did. Many movie reviewers (especially cinephiles who aren't into comic books) saw that because it's very clearly projected in the language that the film speaks if you understand that language (expressionistic cinema). It's one of the things the movie is usually praised for. Hell many people on this very forum over the years especially in the misc bat boards have also recognized this. Something I'm sure you're familiar with considering that you've been a regular poster over there for years now.

Oh I don't think you're right or wrong for interpreting the movie the way you do. It's always good for someone to get something out of a Batman movie, even if everyone doesn't.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

No offense Joker, but it seems like you always try to start an argument, lol.

None taken, Anno. If questioning your problem with Batman smiling means I'm trying to start an argument to you, then I think the problem lies with you not me, since you're the one who raised this issue to me in the first place. I'm just responding to a discussion you started with me.

It's a smiling Batman in what's supposed to be a character to be taken serious that gets me frustrated. A smiling Batman in a cartoon, I can look past. A campy Adam West Batman, I can get past. Even though the storylines themselves in Batman Returns and Batman Forever seemed "off the wall", I did not enjoy seeing Bats smiling.

Thanks for the clarification. All I asked you was if a smiling Batman was what spoiled it for you after you said you disliked both Forever and Returns.

This is all you had to say without any drama.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by The Joker

None taken, Anno. If questioning your problem with Batman smiling means I'm trying to start an argument to you, then I think the problem lies with you not me, since you're the one who raised this issue to me in the first place. I'm just responding to a discussion you started with me.

Thanks for the clarification. All I asked you was if a smiling Batman was what spoiled it for you after you said you disliked both Forever and Returns.

This is all you had to say without any drama.

You're welcome for the clarification, but just posting pics of TAS' Batman smiling just seemed a tad bit condescending when saying the smiling Batman was something I didn't like, that's all. But it's all good.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You're welcome for the clarification, but just posting pics of TAS' Batman smiling just seemed a tad bit condescending when saying the smiling Batman was something I didn't like, that's all. But it's all good.

Well I apologize if that's how it came across. It wasn't intentional. I was actually being serious because Batman smiling is actually not that uncommon. I don't just mean in BTAS. There's lots of examples in the comics, too, and I don't mean the campy ones;

[Rodrigo90]

Kilmer's smile was just goofy as hell in BF. Whereas with another actor, it might not be as bad.

And Batman smiled and laughed his frickin head off in TKJ. That was fine by me

[BlueLightning]

Also this:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[CJ]

I think the next trilogy should be like the Arkham Asylum/City series.

I would love an entirely CGI Batman movie.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Damn it, Joker, why did you have to bring this back into my conscience?

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Damn it, Joker, why did you have to bring this back into my conscience?

It's all part of the plaaaan

[TruerToTheCore]

The idea that Batman doesn't smile is absolutely ridiculous.

[Anno_Domini]

It looks very odd though on film, imo.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

It looks very odd though on film, imo.

Odd? Whatever do you mean.

[Anno_Domini]

Lol.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

The idea that Batman doesn't smile is absolutely ridiculous.

It just looks stupid. I prefer Bruce to do the smiling when in his playboy role or with Alfred, and leave the Batman dark and brooding. He should be in character when he's Batman, focused. Bale let out his rage with it quite a bit. I like that. Batman shouldn't have happy moments, it distracts from the mission and seems silly. Which just reminds you of the campy lighter stuff.

[the last son]

I personally think all super hero movies should be rated R

[shauner111]

Id like to eventually see a Batman movie like that. But it would be a selfish adult request...to ask for all of them with an R Rating LOL. That immediately cuts out all children, which isn't fair at all.

[ThePhantasm]

Some things look better in art / animation than in real life. A smiling Batman is one of those things.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by the last son

I personally think all super hero movies should be rated R

I always thought this was kind of a selfish attitude. If I was 8 and wasn't allowed to see Batman and Spider-Man movies because they were rated R...I'd be hella pissed!

Now, I wouldn't be opposed to an R rated Batman movie (perhaps based on Grant Morrison's Arkham Asylum) happening one day down the line, but no way every superhero movie should be rated R.

As for the reboot....I voted A & B, but I'd love to be surprised with an option that we're not even considering.

Honestly, I've love to see Batman Beyond the movie. Nolan cited Blade Runner as an influence for Batman Begins, but if you set the film a few decades into the future you can really get the Blade Runner version of Batman. It would be a cool way to push the franchise more into Sci-Fi without getting too campy or blatantly unrealistic. And I also think, after the ending of TDKR the world would be ready to see a Batman film where Bruce Wayne isn't in the cape and cowl. But it could be just like the show where he is the mentor.

Not to mention, the movie could also have flashbacks to Batman's heyday ala Return of the Joker. Could be pretty epic.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by the last son

I personally think all super hero movies should be rated R

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by shauner111

It just looks stupid. I prefer Bruce to do the smiling when in his playboy role or with Alfred, and leave the Batman dark and brooding. He should be in character when he's Batman, focused. Bale let out his rage with it quite a bit. I like that. Batman shouldn't have happy moments, it distracts from the mission and seems silly. Which just reminds you of the campy lighter stuff.

Yes, because Kilmer looked odd it looks stupid. And lighter stuff is, of course, BAD when it comes to Batman. You guys...

Originally Posted by the last son

I personally think all super hero movies should be rated R

Nice trolling.

[spidermanJLA!~]

Dark imagination please.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Odd? Whatever do you mean.

I don't mind Batman smiling or even laughing. BUT KILMER!

Seriously, as far as Batman cinematic actors:
Bale > Keaton > West > Clooney > Kilmer

[spidermanJLA!~]

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Honestly, I've love to see Batman Beyond the movie. Nolan cited Blade Runner as an influence for Batman Begins, but if you set the film a few decades into the future you can really get the Blade Runner version of Batman. It would be a cool way to push the franchise more into Sci-Fi without getting too campy or blatantly unrealistic. And I also think, after the ending of TDKR the world would be ready to see a Batman film where Bruce Wayne isn't in the cape and cowl. But it could be just like the show where he is the mentor.

Not to mention, the movie could also have flashbacks to Batman's heyday ala Return of the Joker. Could be pretty epic.

This would be amazing. It's one thing that they can pull off once the Justice League/Bat-Reboot universe is over. Mr. Freeze would be a fantastic choice for a Batman Beyond villain or it could be a different way to bring Joker back to the big screen.

[shauner111]

Lmao that Keaton smile under the cowl makes him look like a perverted Batman.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore

Yes, because Kilmer looked odd it looks stupid. And lighter stuff is, of course, BAD when it comes to Batman. You guys...

Imo, it doesn't matter who plays Bruce Wayne/Batman; the look of someone smiling in that Batsuit in a live action film just looks off to me. It's fine in a cartoon because they will of course have some light-heatedness to it, but with Batman: TAS, it also worked. Again, in a live-action film, it doesn't, imo.