Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I think if Bruce didn't make enough of an effort to survive, it could be seen as a type of failure because that was the lesson he was supposed to have learned in the Pit.

If he had thought he fixed the autopilot, but then it crapped out on him at the last minute...then it wouldn't be a failure, just a very unfortunate and tragic ending to the trilogy.

What would you say the lesson was? I always thought it was to fear death, which was why he climbed the Pit without the rope and being fearful of death could have come up when he fought Bane again and when he was towing the bomb. I wouldn't think dying would've ruined the lesson at all from TDKR.

Originally Posted by Tequilla

No. Not always. Death per se doesnt mean failure. Im saying in this particular story , the progress that Nolan makes him (and us ) go through , him dying would definitely be some sort of failure . This is a theme that goes back to Begins , Rachel stating Bruce's real face was Batman (the notion he's starting to lose itself in the monstrous aspect that represent Batman) , TDk (the letter , when I told you that if Gotham no longer needed Batman we could be together, I meant it. But now I'm sure the day won't come when you no longer need Batman) , and this inability to release himself from his alter-ego will take him to a path of death that Alfred addresses in Rises (Yes, this city needs Bruce Wayne. Your resources, your knowledge... It doesn't need your body. Not your life. You see only one end to your journey )

So , the way things are built , if Bruce chose death to escape his pain , that would definitely be a failure.

Im not saying that if he died because he had no time to escape it would be a failure. Things progress so that's he able to make that choice. As Nolan said , the first thing he thought and outlined about Rises was the ending. The movie is a journey to get there.

But TDKR also wrote its own rules after the ending of TDK and wasn't the logical continuation. While the whole story was about Bruce Wayne trying to find himself outside of the cape and cowl, he did put his life into it and this love of his life at the time has been destroyed. His life outside the cape and cowl were literally taken away from him so he could have very well died as the man he became, the Batman.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

But again Bond as a franchise has survived bad movies. I still think an ongoing series whether its 5-7 or more would be a great way to go instead of just doing trilogies all the time.

Ehh....if survive you meant more films have been made, yes, but people will always remember those bad movies and the bad taste is put on the name of Bond and which is why so many fans became thankful of a reboot and Daniel Craig taking this role to a whole new level, especially in Skyfall.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

What would you say the lesson was? I always thought it was to fear death, which was why he climbed the Pit without the rope and being fearful of death could have come up when he fought Bane again and when he was towing the bomb. I wouldn't think dying would've ruined the lesson at all from TDKR.

Well I guess to me the lesson that comes along with fearing death is re-learning to value your own life. It's an unusual lesson for someone to have to learn because most people naturally fear death, but Bruce is sort of beyond that or at least thinks he is in TDKR. It's kind of that idea of where someone narrowly escapes death in a bad car wreck, and comes out of the experience learning to smell the roses, thinking every day is a gift etc. I feel like Bruce staring down to the bottom of that pit with no rope, no cape or grapple gun...just a man and hundreds of feet into the abyss, something stirred inside him and he made that "leap to freedom" in more ways than one.

That's just how I interpret it though. I like to think that this was Nolan's version of the Lazarus Pit and Bruce emerged from it a new man with a renewed spirit.

[Anno_Domini]

Although, Bruce already had reevaluated his life during his second try to climb the Pit with wanting to fight alongside Gotham. So there was already Bruce wanting to return, which doesn't mean he really wanted to fake his death and move on, but to each their own.

[BatLobsterRises]

Well I think it was clear that Bruce never wanted to die inside the pit. We knew that before his first attempt even.

"I'm not meant to die in here."

"Here...there, what's the difference?"

I feel like at some point between escaping the Pit and returning home, he realized that he wanted to live his life when this was all over. Or at the very least, he wasn't driven by the same "glorious" death-wish urge that made him rush into his first encounter with Bane.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

I loved Rises but I still had my problems with it, for one I think the Dark Knight Rises should've ended the first year of Bruce Wayne's Batman careere not actually the end of his career as the Bat. Rises also ruins the ending of the Dark Knight for me but I still loved it as a quality film, I just think it could have been left open just having that last shot be Batman looking over Gotham City. Then the next trilogy could've been Year two still a reboot of sorts but the events of the Nolan trilogy still happened kind of like they do all the time with the comics, with different writers and styles etc. Just feel it was a missed oppurtnity but still as a trilogy it works but its not perfect.

Originally Posted by DKDetective

I really have to agree with BH/HHH. My biggest problem with the approach they took with TDKR, and the trilogy as whole as a result, was also deciding to make the trilogy the entirety of Bruce's story. Having Bruce be Batman for a year ior so between Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, then retire for a decade, and come back for single last adventure just isn't satisfying. TDK makes a lot less sense thematically as a result of where they took the story in TDKR. I guess you can put that down as a problem with Nolan's one film at a time approach. A lot of the problems with TDKR stem from TDK's ending.

I think TDKR would have been a lot more satisfying if they had approached the trilogy as a story of Bruce's early years as Batman (which I believe Goyer or Nolan said somewhere was their original intention). The third film should have been about Bruce taking the lesson of TDK too far, throwing himself into Batman, and driving himself towards death fighting both against crime and the trying to evade the police. Then have Selina and Robin as forces for good in Bruce's life, things that give him something to live for. The final film should have been about balance - finding satisfaction as both Batman and Bruce, realizing that the war on crime will never be won but that doesn't that he should stop living or stop fighting. They should have given us a story that drew more from Dark Victory.

These two post solidify what I've been saying all along. The reason there has been so much debate over TDKR is because many fans didn't like the direction, or liberties if you will, that the film took with Bruce Wayne's story.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

These two post solidify what I've been saying all along. The reason there has been so much debate over TDKR is because many fans didn't like the direction, or liberties if you will, that the film took with Bruce Wayne's story.

While that's partially true, I guarantee you MUCH more of the fan community would have accepted those same liberties if the execution was better.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by Deserana

I think I'm the only one who actually liked the 8 year gap as for me this was never a Bruce that seemed devoted to doing this for his whole life. His parents were his motivation still but it always seemed that if there was a way out he'd take it. Just look at TDK as soon as Harvey stood up he was ready to step down.

Unless I'm remembering it wrong when Bruce is asked how long he wants to do this for he says "As long as I have to" (I think that is in the film) so that clearly isn't a man who wants to do this forever. You also have Dent in TDK saying "The Batman doesn't want to do this for the rest of his life how could he? He is looking for someone to take up his mantle." then in TDKR he found that in Blake and then Bruce moved on.

The 8 year gap seemed logical to me yes it may seem like Bruce was barely Batman but he still made a mark on this Gotham. The actions of TDKR were exactly the same IMO and not out of characater. I've seen people say he takes an 8 year gap because of Rachel! He didn't. There was no need for him to be Batman. I've seen people say that Batman should still be fighting small crime. Nolan's Batman has never been shown doing that he has only attacked some sort of organised crime. And people have said Batman would never quit. Nolan's Bruce was never devoted to Batman it seemed more like a period of his life he wanted to get past.

Nolan isn't claiming to make thee definitive Batman. It was just another take on the character. I have issues with TDKR but Bruce was not one of them I thought his arc was perfect and entirely in line with the previous two films.

No, you're not. I have no problem with the 8 year gap.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

While that's partially true, I guarantee you MUCH more of the fan community would have accepted those same liberties if the execution was better.

I think some have mistaken the execution of the liberties for what they wanted to happen in the film. There are only a very FEW people who have given solid ideas about how things could have been improved.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

No, you're not. I have no problem with the 8 year gap.

Count me in.

[BatLobsterRises]

The 8 year gap was one of my favorite aspects of the movie. It gave the events of the first two films a lot of weight.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Count me in.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The 8 year gap was one of my favorite aspects of the movie. It gave the events of the first two films a lot of weight.

Yep, it made Bruce Wayne feel more human.

[Fudgie]

Hated the 8 year gap. Lame writing decision. Made Wayne look so pathetic.

[BH/HHH]

All in all regardless of the stuff I'd change its still a fantastic film and it was great to finally see a 3rd superhero film that was actually good.

[TheBat812]

To me the point of his experience in the pit was to accept the fear of things -to accept those things we don't have control over. This was crucial to his catharsis. To end it with his death would have been okay, but for the audience it's just a sour note to end on for the sake of shock, and for the character just doesn't let him really resolve his arc satisfactorily. The way they did it was perfect for me because I truly believed Nolan had killed him, but then had the satisfaction that Alfred and Gordon get knowing he's not actually gone but had finally moved on from the guilt and pain of his past while leaving an ace in the hole for the future.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Hated the 8 year gap. Lame writing decision. Made Wayne look so pathetic.

Nice try.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

Nice try.

Nice try at what? Stating an opinion. No need to try for that. It's as easy as 1, 2, 3.

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nice try at what? Stating an opinion. No need to try for that. It's as easy as 1, 2, 3.

No, you were trying to start something.

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by Alex Logan

No, you were trying to start something.

Heh ya are banging on about the 8 year gap, I come in and say what I think of it, and I'm trying to start something cos I joined into a discussion y'all were already talking about?

Go pull the other one cos it's got bells dangling on it. If Ya reckon I'm trying to start trouble for saying what I think then go and report me cos the only one starting anything here is you with your nice try snide remarks.

Holy insecurity issues, Batman.

[C. Lee]

Let's not start something.....

[Alex Logan]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Let's not start something.....

[Fudgie]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Let's not start something.....

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Well I think it was clear that Bruce never wanted to die inside the pit. We knew that before his first attempt even.

"I'm not meant to die in here."

"Here...there, what's the difference?"

I feel like at some point between escaping the Pit and returning home, he realized that he wanted to live his life when this was all over. Or at the very least, he wasn't driven by the same "glorious" death-wish urge that made him rush into his first encounter with Bane.

No, he did want to die in the Pit at once time. Asking Conti's character how much could he give them to let him die when Conti said it didn't matter since he has no money.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

No, he did want to die in the Pit at once time. Asking Conti's character how much could he give them to let him die when Conti said it didn't matter since he has no money.

True. Though that was before he actually saw Bane's plan unfolding. Once that happened, he started training, etc.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Hated the 8 year gap. Lame writing decision. Made Wayne look so pathetic.

Disagree.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

True. Though that was before he actually saw Bane's plan unfolding. Once that happened, he started training, etc.

Because he had to protect his city. But he did have a dying wish the first part of TDKR while he was just waiting for something bad to happen again. Something happened that made Bruce want to live only to fight another day, but for a moment, he did want to die while in the Pit.