Discussion: North Africa & Southwest Asia Regional Issues II

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

How can anyone disagree with Hamas being a terrorist organization? They themselves don't even seem to mind the label anymore.

Just the other day they gave a thumbs up to a bus bombing. Not to mention constantly firing rockets at civilian targets.

Well there are Terrorist within Hamas and non terrorists, just like most 'terrorist' (the reason I put the 'quote' designation is because I was talking about it as a label, not an action). I also feel terrorism is a loose term. I dislike how it gets applied on the basis, mostly, of religious affiliation.

Hamas is definitely a terrorist organization, or rather there is a terrorist organization called Hamas. That is a thing.

[The Overlord]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

Even if it is a 'gray' conflict with no true heroes or villains, that doesn't negate the veracity of the occupation, nor the main sources of the problem. That problem is that one party in the conflict is receiving the bulk of aid, bulk of UN support, and the bulk of US political support. That one party is also tied with the same parties that have stalled and dismantled the peace process, one Israeli settlement at a time.

But does being the underdog instantly make the Palestinians morally superior in all areas to the Israelis? This what i am talking about, some left wingers siding with the underdog instantly. Its counterproductive and based on emotionalism rather then objective analysis. There is too much emotionalism in this conflict, neither side is willing to do what is needed to resolve this conflict because they both tell themselves fairy tails where the other side is pure evil, while they are pure good. Nothing is going to get solved with these oversimplifications in place.

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

This is a very successful apartheid campaign to push indigenous Palestinians into reservations while the Israelis carve up most of Palestinian territory into their own nation. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, are all caustic reactions to this colonization.

Okay, but was Israel created because the Zionist movement were a bunch of cartoonish super villains who just wanted Palestinians suffer and took their land just because of the desperation that came out of the Holocaust? Its not always black and white. You can argue Israel has better reason for existing then a lot of other countries, that did worse, for more selfish reasons.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Did Optimus really just compare Hamas to the Catholic Church? Wow. I'm just.... wow.

Al Qaeda gives money to Islamic charities too. That doesn't mean they're not a terrorist group through and through. Your comparison between the moral failings of some priests within the Catholic Church and Hamas a group which trains people to blow themselves up on Israeli buses and in night-clubs is just ridiculous. Nice token pic too. Of course there's hateful Jewish extremists. No one is disputing that. But for every one pic of those you find, I'm sure I could match you with a Palestinian kid standing in front of a "death to Jews" graffiti scrawl. So you're really proving nothing, except extremism is everywhere. But only one government entity is dedicated to the complete extermination of the other side and that is Hamas.

How can you make peace with an enemy that not only hates you, but refuses to acknowledge your very existence?

[Midnyte_Sun]

Originally Posted by The Overlord

But does being the underdog instantly make the Palestinians morally superior in all areas to the Israelis? ...some left wingers siding with the underdog instantly. Its counterproductive and based on emotionalism rather then objective analysis

All? Ofcourse not, but the majority, yes. I don't think anybody can support murdering civilians in any conflict, and the Palestinians have committed terrorism to punish the Israelis for their own perceived persecutions. But if you look at every Palestinian crime, you will see a disproportionate similar crime by the Israelis. This is not emotionalism, this is objective criticism that falls on deaf ears because the US vetoes any criticism of Israel, even when the majority of the nations of the world support the Palestinian cause.

Zionists and Israelis have, and I can find you objective sources if you ask:

1. Used Human shields
2. Used Car Bombs
3. Murdered unarmed protesters
4. Murdered and tortured children
5. Apartheid
6. Racism
7. Unlawful imprisonment, and leniency to Israeli crimes
8. Indoctrination of children to hate Palestinians
9. Land appropriation
10. Illegal settlement expansion
11. Collective punishment
12. Vandalism
13. Spying on the US

Not to mention geo-political controversies such as the IDF enabled and assisted massacre of over a thousand innocent Palestinians in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps in Lebanon, nuclear weapon proliferation and escalation, and the attack on the USS Liberty.

There is too much emotionalism in this conflict, neither side is willing to do what is needed to resolve this conflict because they both tell themselves fairy tails where the other side is pure evil, while they are pure good. Nothing is going to get solved with these oversimplifications in place.

And oversimplifying the problem as simply emotionalism will not do any good either. There are legitimate concerns for the Palestinians AND the Israelis. The Israelis will not negotiate on the 4 million Palestinian refugees that had their lands confiscated. The Palestinians will not negotiate on living in a little archipelago of walled prison camps with Israeli-only roads criss-crossing through them having the Israelis dictate to them their own destiny.

You can argue Israel has better reason for existing then a lot of other countries, that did worse, for more selfish reasons.

A lot of nations were invented after WWII for many selfish reasons. And history will say that if Israel wants to survive in this hostile neighborhood, it will have to adapt and becoming pluralistic.

Israel can't live forever as a US aid recipient always on the brink of war with its neighbors. It wants the US and Europe to change all the governments of its neighbors so it has a chance for survival. The reality is, it will never get everything it wants, it has to make peace if it wants to survive. Therefore, it has to make concessions, as do the Palestinians.

The Europeans, Americans, and the Arab neighbors who together, perpetuate this disaster, will have to figure out a solution.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

Did Optimus really just compare Hamas to the Catholic Church? Wow. I'm just.... wow.

Al Qaeda gives money to Islamic charities too. That doesn't mean they're not a terrorist group through and through. Your comparison between the moral failings of some priests within the Catholic Church and Hamas a group which trains people to blow themselves up on Israeli buses and in night-clubs is just ridiculous. Nice token pic too. Of course there's hateful Jewish extremists. No one is disputing that. But for every one pic of those you find, I'm sure I could match you with a Palestinian kid standing in front of a "death to Jews" graffiti scrawl. So you're really proving nothing, except extremism is everywhere. But only one government entity is dedicated to the complete extermination of the other side and that is Hamas.

How can you make peace with an enemy that not only hates you, but refuses to acknowledge your very existence?

Frankly that whole "you can't make peace with terrorists" is malarkey.

They're attacking us by the means at their disposal, which makes for more low rent tactics like dirty bombs and suicide bombers.

But then you have high tech genocide being handed down by Israel.

No it doesn't "forgive" Hamas, but people frequently try to paint Hamas as different from the IDF or certain Israeli factions when they're all the same and just using different methods.

Hamas has those same mixtures of good and bad. If you're going to punish them for terrorism it's simply morally irresponsible that Israel gets vetoes and revisionist news reporting every time they kill a civilian.

They currently lead that body count of civilians 10-1 against Hamas and other anti-Israel forces in that area.

Quite ironically too, they've soured their own reputation.

Islam had anti-Semite elements just like Christianity, but tolerance for Jews in the Arab world has waned severely. They used to have Jews living next door, going to school together, and babysitting each others children.

Israel has pretty much tried to force Apartheid from day one.

So yes, Hamas is an extreme Islmo-fascist organization but their goal is bore out of circumstances beyond their control. Hamas probably would have zero support if Israel wasn't breaking non proliferation treaties and arming themselves to the teeth, attacking civilian targets unprovoked.

No you can't "forgive" Hamas but you can certainly say whatever bad they've done Israel has at least matched.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Frankly that whole "you can't make peace with terrorists" is malarkey.

They're attacking us by the means at their disposal, which makes for more low rent tactics like dirty bombs and suicide bombers.

But then you have high tech genocide being handed down by Israel.

No it doesn't "forgive" Hamas, but people frequently try to paint Hamas as different from the IDF or certain Israeli factions when they're all the same and just using different methods.

Hamas has those same mixtures of good and bad. If you're going to punish them for terrorism it's simply morally irresponsible that Israel gets vetoes and revisionist news reporting every time they kill a civilian.

They currently lead that body count of civilians 10-1 against Hamas and other anti-Israel forces in that area.

Quite ironically too, they've soured their own reputation.

Islam had anti-Semite elements just like Christianity, but tolerance for Jews in the Arab world has waned severely. They used to have Jews living next door, going to school together, and babysitting each others children.

Israel has pretty much tried to force Apartheid from day one.

So yes, Hamas is an extreme Islmo-fascist organization but their goal is bore out of circumstances beyond their control. Hamas probably would have zero support if Israel wasn't breaking non proliferation treaties and arming themselves to the teeth, attacking civilian targets unprovoked.

No you can't "forgive" Hamas but you can certainly say whatever bad they've done Israel has at least matched.

So, exactly how should we or any other country propose peace with a group of people that believe, if you do not believe in Allah and follow Islam, you are an infadel and should die....? Just wonderin'...Or in this particular case, want Israel blown off the face of the earth? I will DEFINITELY agree that the tactics that Israel has thus far taken have led to more violence, and I am one that calls what they are doing as Apartheid, without question...but again the question is, how would YOU propose peace between these two groups when one group is bent on ethnic cleansing and the other on death to most all????

[floreairfoot]

Originally Posted by Midnyte_Sun

All? Ofcourse not, but the majority, yes. I don't think anybody can support murdering civilians in any conflict.

Israel doesn't celebrate the killing of civilians, but it has become a necessary evil for their own safety.

If Hamas had true concern for its civilians, their militants wouldn't be using them as camouflage. They can use the casualties to muster outrage against Israel and garner support for Hamas. It's a win-win; they're quite ruthless.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Kelly

So, exactly how should we or any other country propose peace with a group of people that believe, if you do not believe in Allah and follow Islam, you are an infadel and should die....? Just wonderin'...Or in this particular case, want Israel blown off the face of the earth? I will DEFINITELY agree that the tactics that Israel has thus far taken have led to more violence, and I am one that calls what they are doing as Apartheid, without question...but again the question is, how would YOU propose peace between these two groups when one group is bent on ethnic cleansing and the other on death to most all????

Well I mean there's no one easy answer.

I suppose the easy answer is 'get rid of Israel' but since Israel now exists there isn't an undo button anywhere.

If we cut aid and pulled out, honestly, I doubt we'd be attacked but Israel could suffer a ton of wraith however I'm not even sure we're in a position to do that.

I think it unfortunately comes down to the fact that we ought to have never been involved in the first place. Until we get off our oil addiction they'll be no easy solution for us.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

Israel doesn't celebrate the killing of civilians, but it has become a necessary evil for their own safety.

Of course they do. It goes widely unreported here but they hate the Arabs every bit as much as Hamas hates them. They celebrate the death of Arabs constantly.

It really irritates me that Islam is the evil religion; they are no more or less evil.

The Jewish Torah and Christian Bible is basically a manual on ethnic cleansing. This notion we need to white wash everything done in the name of God or Yahweh is insulting to people of moral character. Also this notion that one races suffering outweighs another is absurd, especially when Judaism is not a race. Nor is Islam.

Of course I think this is the logical end to any culture that desensitized themselves with Bronze Age myths.

[Optimus_Prime_]

This news story seems discussion related
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...ics?source=rss

[floreairfoot]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

This news story seems discussion related
http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...ics?source=rss

"Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak abruptly quit politics Monday, potentially robbing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of a key ally who enabled his hardline government to present a moderate face to the world."

Well, it is the Denver Post after all.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

"Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak abruptly quit politics Monday, potentially robbing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of a key ally who enabled his hardline government to present a moderate face to the world."

Well, it is the Denver Post after all.

So "hardline government" is our buzzword for "horrible ethnic cleansing"?

Lol.

You are right, it is the Post.

Didn't the Nazi's accuse the Jews of "spreading Terror"?

The ironies abound.

[floreairfoot]

The Denver Poster is just another bias news outlet that follows the anti-Israel/ pro-underdog (someone said this earlier and it's dead-on) code.

You seem to actually believe that Israel or Jews, since they're tied to the Torah, desire some kind of ethnic "cleansing", and hate Arabs.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by floreairfoot

The Denver Poster is just another bias news outlet that follows the anti-Israel/ pro-underdog (someone said this earlier and it's dead-on) code.

You seem to actually believe that Israel or Jews, since they're tied to the Torah, desire some kind of ethnic "cleansing", and hate Arabs.

Not all of them, but Israel overall is incredibly anti-Arab, and that definitely ties to their religion.

I'm sure much like anything else you have rank-and-file IDF who are "just following orders" but their orders are vile.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Well I mean there's no one easy answer.

I suppose the easy answer is 'get rid of Israel' but since Israel now exists there isn't an undo button anywhere.

If we cut aid and pulled out, honestly, I doubt we'd be attacked but Israel could suffer a ton of wraith however I'm not even sure we're in a position to do that.

I think it unfortunately comes down to the fact that we ought to have never been involved in the first place. Until we get off our oil addiction they'll be no easy solution for us.

OK, undo button pushed....it is now back to a British Mandate...now what?

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Kelly

OK, undo button pushed....it is now back to a British Mandate...now what?

Well exactly. Wouldn't accomplish much.

Like I said, no easy answer, for them.

The answer for us is stop using foreign oil and switch to alternative fuel then we can say "f*** 'em, y'all figure this crap out yourselves".

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Not all of them, but Israel overall is incredibly anti-Arab, and that definitely ties to their religion.

I'm sure much like anything else you have rank-and-file IDF who are "just following orders" but their orders are vile.

I would say that the Jews overall have been considerably more tolerant. The Palestinians were talking about wiping out the Jews before Israel even existed. The Grand Mufti of Palestine even tried to get Hitler to send death squads to the Levant.

Having said that, there was a lot of racism between the Ashkenazis and the Sephardic Jews. Lot of that has been swept under the rug, since their neighbors want to exterminate both of them. But it's something that rarely comes up these days.

[Optimus_Prime_]

One of the things that confounds me is Zionism. Religion confounds me in general, but Zionism, and it's influence, really disturbs me.

Firstly, I can completely understand it's Western appeal. From the onset it's a "losers versus winners" and "good versus evil" story of Moses, that for most Evangelicals and even casual Christians is their favorite story other than Jesus. It's very much in the forefront of the public's mind. One of our greatest movies is what? The Ten Commandments. What gets taught in schools and homes across America as a basic morality code; the ten commandments.

I actually don't think this is some plot by the Jews or a conspiracy, just to be clear. I think this is just how things ended up, for some pretty obvious reasons when you think on who the first settlers were, and many since.

So I think, to Americans it's very obvious to us that Jews belong in Israel, Charlton Heston said so in that movie! Although I think the internet is now giving people global vision to where the suffering of Palestians is equally as human as the suffering of anyone else.

It's also not unlikely that our interests converged even on a Global and economic scale either.

What bothers me about Zionism is it's a heaping pile of dogsh**.

The Bible, most noteably the Old Testament, is largely false. Completely stinking false. The jews were never in that number in Egypt, then likely didn't even exist at the time of the supposed expulsion. Those driven from Egypt likely came in contact with the Jews, passing the story along, and eventually the Jews just told it as if it were about themselves. This is widely accepted by archeology, history and even genetic mapping of human migration. It's ridiculous that this still gets pushed on an educational level.

Conceiveably any country could ally with any country, as evidenced by how quickly the US became friends with Russia, but you're reasoning in the twenty first century can't be "because some fairly tale told me I'm supposed to live here". That may have flown in 1942, when it was probably more generally assumed those things were true (I must confess, I know not in what year it became clear the Moses stories, and most of the Old Testament was mostly fictional -- surprisingly, many think Samson may have existed, also because of the way it's told. It's a unique story amongst the others).

But that's ultimately what I dislike about Zionism.

I'm really unconvinced that this is about "Zion" and the "New Messiah". I don't believe people in power, who have seen so much of the world, believe in any of that religious nonsense. I think they understand it more as an opiate, see it's usefulness, use it for their own purposes because they know it's emotionally satisfying for others. I think everything comes down to land, money and resources.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

If the Palestinians have the right to demand that Israelis leave, don't native Americans have the right to demand that non-native Americans leave their traditional homeland. The Aboriginals have the right to demand Aussies clear out. The Maori can tell white New Zealanders to get lost. We can do this game all day. The Israelis actually have more right to their country than those other groups that settled because at least Israel was their ancestral homeland.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

I would say that the Jews overall have been considerably more tolerant. The Palestinians were talking about wiping out the Jews before Israel even existed. The Grand Mufti of Palestine even tried to get Hitler to send death squads to the Levant.

Having said that, there was a lot of racism between the Ashkenazis and the Sephardic Jews. Lot of that has been swept under the rug, since their neighbors want to exterminate both of them. But it's something that rarely comes up these days.

Well, first of all, Palestian today is not Palestian of the pre-1940s.

This is Palestine in the 1930s

Pretty spectacular place, no? (Admittedly I have no idea what this looks like today).

Anyhoo, you can look this up about anywhere but the Jews were numbered at about 400,000 in Palestine before the 1940s and according to the British they got along very well with the Palestinians and only a few minor flair ups were reported.

So this tru-ism that floats around about the Jews and Palestians or Jews and Muslims being 'hated rivals' is historically inaccurate. That's not to say Jews and Muslims haven't clashed, just that they've also clashed with Buddhists and Christians as well. So it's certainly not fair to say that, for a very extended period in Palestine the Jews appear to have no issue living alongside Palestians.

Also there were all sorts of people there at the time to. British, French, and I think they had several others as well.

Also, most of the people in Palestine, during the war, the Arabs and Jews, fought for the Allies side by side if I'm not mistaken.

[Schlosser85]

It's way too late to expect the Israelis to leave, just like it's too late to expect Americans to leave, or Australians to leave, or to "take" part of Germany, "make" the Germans leave and "give" it to Jews, like that nonsense someone mentioned earlier, as if anyone has any authority to do such a thing, and as if it wouldn't be as morally wrong as the Nazis were, to force Germans who weren't even alive during the Holocaust off their homes and give them to Jews who weren't victims of the Holocaust either.

I support a two state solution. Unfortunately, there are too many extremists on both sides who believe it's rightfully "mine, all mine" and have this "then no man shall!" mindset.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

If the Palestinians have the right to demand that Israelis leave, don't native Americans have the right to demand that non-native Americans leave their traditional homeland. The Aboriginals have the right to demand Aussies clear out. The Maori can tell white New Zealanders to get lost. We can do this game all day. The Israelis actually have more right to their country than those other groups that settled because at least Israel was their ancestral homeland.

You just contradicted yourself. In one paragraph. Amazing.

This of course being the Native Americans, ancestral homeland. Should they be allowed to re-settle?

But lets play that game all day.

It was their ancestral homeland 3000 YEARS AGO

Since then they've been in diaspora for thousands of years, and in fact, the Bible doesn't even say Israel is their homeland!!!

It says Israel (a person) instructed the Jews to have no state, to have no nation, to in fact travel the world and spread the message of Judaism. Ever since Solomon the God of the Jews instructed them to have no state. They are not to be ruled, but to live like nomads and preach the good word. That's why there are Jews who believe just that.

So no, it's a horrible reason.

They originally wanted to get out of Europe to escape what had been a place that was pretty tacit about anti-semitism. That was a good reason to seek a homeland, I would give them that. But tying it up in this notion of an ancestral homeland, because a book that isn't historically supported by credible authorities is a pretty poor reason.

But like I said, I doubt it was about this. At the time, Israel was a good piece of real estate, and since oil has become such a comody Israel would be wise to expand their borders and further take control of the region. That's just simple economics. Similar to why we drove the Indians out. Land, territory and resources. America basically hit the lottery discovering this place. Israel was a good piece of land, and good strategic placement too.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

It's way too late to expect the Israelis to leave, just like it's too late to expect Americans to leave, or Australians to leave, or to "take" part of Germany, "make" the Germans leave and "give" it to Jews, like that nonsense someone mentioned earlier, as if anyone has any authority to do such a thing, and as if it wouldn't be as morally wrong as the Nazis were, to force Germans who weren't even alive during the Holocaust off their homes and give them to Jews who weren't victims of the Holocaust either.

Yeah, it's basically a sh** situation all around.

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

I support a two state solution. Unfortunately, there are too many extremists on both sides who believe it's rightfully "mine, all mine" and have this "then no man shall!" mindset.

I really honestly have no idea what to do anymore. Two-State system is gonna break down, eventually. I think our overall best option is reduce our dependence on foreign oil, switch to more alternative fuels, and slowly diminish our need for a presence is the region. Then we can slowly back out completely. Then, unfortunately, I think somebody is gonna kill somebody.

The downside is, if we can't reduce our need for an international presence in that region, well, then we back Israel. It's what we're doing now, and they'll probably continue to expect that. If Netanyahu continues to be there, we could be in trouble. I think he's a bully and his finger is on the button at all times. He tries to act like he owns are Presidents (and perhaps he does), and I dislike his overall attitude.

I would never advocate backing Hamas, I suppose at this juncture at least. Hamas is not capable of the damage Netanyahu can inflict. Israel has the potential for genocide, and really the terrorists don't, yet. They don't have the American war machine backing them either.

But that basically is our counter insurgent strategy isn't it? Try to hunt down anti-American elements before they are able to form alliances with each other, thusly forming standing armies. The problem I have in that area is we are backing a shady character, not only making us shady (go watch cartoons in other countries and remember us having cartoons like that in the 1940s featuring Germans and Japanese instead of *us*) and more Imperial, but now it's straining our economy and making us divert resources to a country that's mistreating the Arab world. We're creating as many counter insurgents and we're putting down because of our preceived image.

I'm not sure I trust the Israeli Government either. The attack on our ship -- oh, ahem, excuse me, the accidental attack, even though it was apparent they knew it was an American vessel. Or the Israeli spies, all of them. Or the fact that Israel had full working knowledge of the 9-11 terror attacks that went unreleased to the United States.

I don't trust Hamas either, for fairly good reason, but I can't trust Israel either. And I don't want to see the United States get dragged into their nonsense, which we easily could be.

[Thundercrack85]

People seem to have this notion that there were now Jews in Palestine between 1000 BC and the 1940's. There was a sizable Jewish population which had been there for... well, since Biblical times.

It waned and grew over the course of two thousand years.

I've never debated the Palestinians right to live in Palestine. Nor that of the Jews. Two groups can have rights to the same land.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

People seem to have this notion that there were now Jews in Palestine between 1000 BC and the 1940's. There was a sizable Jewish population which had been there for... well, since Biblical times.

It waned and grew over the course of two thousand years.

I've never debated the Palestinians right to live in Palestine. Nor that of the Jews. Two groups can have rights to the same land.

This is all very true. They've been there in numbers as high as 700,000. However, before 1947 there was never a desire for one Jewish state.