HOLY ARKHAM LOGIC BATMAN! The Crazy, Insane Theory about Nolanverse Thread

[Nave 'Torment']

I think one of these is way overdue. You know what I'm talking about -- that last edge of fanboy nitpick that somehow gives way to a logic and insight so absurd you feel a bit silly just for thinking about it: the Arkham inmate in TDK is really The Mad Hatter?! Mr. Reese is really The Riddler?! But those are just the tip of the ice-berg. There are some theories that transcend normal logic; those which if taken to a place that's more than just a rancid suggestion, those which if devoted into an ideology, which have the potential to become legendary...

I'm talking about those. Unchecked by reason but still somehow rational in your mind.

There are a few suggestions on the "What did you notice after multiple views" thread, but damn it if the Bat-thread's reputation for being insane has any place than we need to push it up to a sixty. I'll start off with the more bizarre ones, but I want the ideas to be put up here and contested with the same level of Bat-zeal and Bat-devotion. Don't go telling the other guy that "it's really reaching" because that's sort of the point of the thread -- to be reaching, but still just believable.

#1

Chris Nolan's The Dark Knight has a subtle allusion to Stanley Kubrick's movies:

The Bat-Garage is an upside-down reflection of the chamber from 2001: A Space Odyssey



Nolan just might've slipped us a very clever (and subtle) reference to his favourite film. Note the visual/aesthetic similarity:

In Stanley Kubrick (one of Nolan's self-confessed inspiration)'s film 2001: A Space Odyssey, the central human figure, Dave, wakes up at the climax of the film in a room that has a strange floor of tiled white lighting. It's bright, iridescent, and illuminates the entire chamber. The room is perhaps one of the most important -- let alone memorable -- scenes in the entire film.




In The Dark Knight , the Bat-Cave is replaced by a chamber/garage/warehouse that is aesthetically similar, at least on its edges.




Whereas in Space Odyssey the tiled/white lights make up the FLOORING, in Bruce's garage, it occupies the CEILING, but the design is curiously the same.



The warehouse is said to replace the Batcave and therefore stores all of Batman's most memorable gear, including his vehicles such as the Bat-pod, the Bat-mobile, the bat-computer, and of course, that sexy (red?) bike.

In A Space Odyssey, Dave sees in the chamber, among other things, the vehicle he uses to transport across space:



[I continued the comparison in this post look it up if you're interested]

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Interesting read, thanks for posting.

[Nave 'Torment']

#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

"Why So Serious" is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by DaRkVeNgeanCe

Interesting read, thanks for posting.

no dude i really wanna extend this madness throw in your own zany theories

I'll give another:


#3 Rachel Dawse is essentially the Barbara Gordon of this series (too crazy you ask? Sorry but Dr. Crane isn't here...)





We essentially have....

A strong-willed, red-headed female character who's part of the group of characters making up the "ordinary people of Gotham," is street-smart, part of the middle-class but still a confidant and independent woman who socializes with the elite citizens of Gotham...







sometimes sports really short hair...






is in an on-again off-again relationship with our "hero" leading to unrequited love and really embracing her namesake from Friends.

Batgirl's been the ultimate "cute girl to have a crush on" for Grayson (and a lot of the fans) for all these years, just as Rachel's the same for Bale-Bats.




and most importantly... is linked with the Joker by a tragic moment that effects her--and by extension Bruce--forever:





[(The Killing Joke -- in the comics it doesn't effect Jim Gordon and drive him over the edge, but in the film, it drives Harvey over his edge]

Did I mention they both have red-hair? Okay so I know what you'll say -- but Barbara already exists in Nolanverse, and Rachel's not exactly Oracle OR Batgirl. Or Bruce's apprentice.

Well my answer to that is .... well... I ... shut up!

[Shedhut]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

"Why So Serious" is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.

Funny, I watched The Shining recently and couldnt help to notice Ledger's Joker shared some mannerism with Jack (particularly in the bar scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA)

[Fudgie]

This thread is trippy. I like it.

[Uroboric Forms]

What's the Mad Hatter theory?

[Anno_Domini]

REAL good thread, but why is this in the TDKR area?

[shauner111]

AMAZING thread. The Shining theory is cool as ****!

[BlueLightning]

My mind cannot conceive this level of craziness...

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

#2 The Kubrickean analogies continue with the Joker -- no not just in the very obvious design and anarchist influences of Alex DeLarge, but in the other idea about the Joker's past.

He tells us a frightening story about how his father was a drinker... and one night he gets crazier than usual...



'Mom' got the knife from the kitchen...





But he doesn't like that... not one bit.

(spoiler tags for an F bomb - the scene has the father threatening mom to stop pointing the damned knife at his face)

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

"Why So Serious" is essentially the theme of The Shining, and the story about the traumatised little Joker-boy with Ledger is actually this kid:

seeing this:

WHo... yes... happens to be the son of the same guy who played the Joker in the last good Batman film series. I always agreed to the notion that Ledger's Joker is spiritually a bastardized son of Nicholson's Joker.

First story a reference to The Shining, and Jokers second story (to Rachel) a reference to Harley?

[elgato]

Freud said that our life memories are all pearls in a necklace, and like in a necklace they are all tied to each other.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

the Arkham inmate in TDK is really The Mad Hatter?!

You mean Thomas Schiff?

[bane]

Blade Runner
The narrows was based on Kowloon( which is pretty much LA from BR).

Rachel Dawes is named after Rachel from BR, and Sean Young was supposed to play Vicky Vale in B89 and then later Catwoman in BR.

The Tumbler is based on the Police Speeder from BR (no front axel & etc).

[CapedCrusader14]

That Shining theory is so crazy and brilliant that I'd actually believe it.

I always thought that Rachel was named after Sean Young's character from Blade Runner.

[bane]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

Did I mention they both have red-hair?

Rachel is a brunette. Her hair is not red, it's dark brown.

[Blue_Scholar]

Cool story bros.


And I mean that.


This is a cool thread. I like it.

[Happy Jack]

I've always thought it wasn't a coincidence that the love interest in Begins and Blade Runner were both named Rachel or that Rutger Haur appears in both films. The visual homage is obvious in the narrows but Nolan loves that movie so much that it manifests in other ways.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

REAL good thread, but why is this in the TDKR area?

Thanks man -- and well it's on the TDKR area because it's supposed to involve the entire trilogy. Most of these characters and aspects do appear throughout.

Originally Posted by shauner111

AMAZING thread. The Shining theory is cool as ****!

I know right?!

Originally Posted by Shedhut

Funny, I watched The Shining recently and couldnt help to notice Ledger's Joker shared some mannerism with Jack (particularly in the bar scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLB21If2YA)

That's a great insight -- I wonder if he was conscious of that when he performed?

Originally Posted by Fudgie

This thread is trippy. I like it.

tis the idea

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You mean Thomas Schiff?

The very one. It went as such that Thomas Schiff is actually Nolan-verse's Mad Hatter just because he's an inmate from Arkham and I guess he wore a hat but hey you can't stop em from speculating can you?

But what I loved about that particular angle is how the Joker would've been this catalyst to the throng of "freaks" and so really play as much a hand in inadvertantly creating the endless supply of psychotic villains as much as Batman, making the entire exotic and larger-than-life element of the comics a blend of Batman's involvement on Gotham, the Joker's brand of "criminal" and to some extent the Scarecrow's fear-gas. A sort of mythical dimension within the imagination of Gothammites. So yeah, a hyper reality with meta-textual implications.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by bane

Rachel is a brunette. Her hair is not red, it's dark brown.

Don't you dare try to rationalize here bub!

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

but hey i'm a guy. i'm supposed to be oblivious to differences in colour

Originally Posted by bane

Rachel Dawes is named after Rachel from BR, and Sean Young was supposed to play Vicky Vale in B89 and then later Catwoman in BR.

See this is why we needed this -- I never made the connection until just now.

The Tumbler is based on the Police Speeder from BR (no front axel & etc).

In the BB DVD features Nolan talks about how the initial designs on the Tumbler was meant to look like a bat with its wings swept forwards, with the bridge naturally being the head. There's a sketch out there somewhere detailing the concept but I can't find it at the moment...

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by shauner111

First story a reference to The Shining, and Jokers second story (to Rachel) a reference to Harley?

Why not right? I mean sure The Killing Joke essentiallyhas the same origin story but ftn

And of course, who doesn't love thinking about Harl?

Originally Posted by elgato

Freud said that our life memories are all pearls in a necklace, and like in a necklace they are all tied to each other.

That's ... actually really interesting about the symbolism that grips Batman not just in Nolan-verse but in every incarnation. I think people tend to not look too much into the Freudian implication of hero-myths and stories about heroism a lot these days because Freud's theories have become so much a staple of 20th Century thinking. But it's there, and while I don't pretend to know what Nolan got influenced by or was thinking when he made these movies, I do think that there are more Freudian aspects in the trilogy than we give him credit for.

Nolan's films have always had a Jungian dimension, so there's that as well.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

The very one. It went as such that Thomas Schiff is actually Nolan-verse's Mad Hatter just because he's an inmate from Arkham and I guess he wore a hat but hey you can't stop em from speculating can you?

But what I loved about that particular angle is how the Joker would've been this catalyst to the throng of "freaks" and so really play as much a hand in inadvertantly creating the endless supply of psychotic villains as much as Batman, making the entire exotic and larger-than-life element of the comics a blend of Batman's involvement on Gotham, the Joker's brand of "criminal" and to some extent the Scarecrow's fear-gas. A sort of mythical dimension within the imagination of Gothammites. So yeah, a hyper reality with meta-textual implications.

I think it also had to do with the fact that Schiff was a schizophrenic from Arkham. So there were comparisons to Mad Hatter.

Just like Coleman Reese and The Riddler. The black guy on the ferries as either Killer Croc (Brian Azzarello version) or Amygdala. Barsad as Deadshot. Jen as Holly Robinson. Ramirez as Montoya. The black cop in Rises with the "Allen" nametag as Crispus Allen. Stephens/Wuertz as a Bullock combo. Blake as a Robin amalgamation. Bane as a mix between the comic-Bane, the mutant leader from TDKReturns and Deacon Blackfire from The Cult..

I've heard ALL of these being speculated by fans. Some of them i agree with, but for the sake of this thread..the rest are all possible! Including the Schiff theory.

[bane]

Mentmore towers is the mansion in "Eyes Wide Shut"(Nolan is a very big fan of Kubrick), which is Wayne Manor in "Batman Begins"

Rade Serbedzija plays Milich in "Eyes wide shut" and the nice coat guy in "Batman Begins".

The pool table in "Eyes wide shut" is very similar to the one in "The Dark Knight (especially the lights above it).

@Happy Jack, yes I was about to write about Rutger Hauer, but I forgot just before making the post, Batty's scene with Tyrell in "Blade Runner" is very similiar to the one with Bane killing Dagget in "The Dark Knight Rises".

[bane]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

In the BB DVD features Nolan talks about how the initial designs on the Tumbler was meant to look like a bat with its wings swept forwards, with the bridge naturally being the head. There's a sketch out there somewhere detailing the concept but I can't find it at the moment...

I know which pic you're talking about, it's on my hard drive(I will try to find it), but it's not the first time Nolan's lied to us.

[Kane52630]

I can't find the post but some guy here mentioned about the Nolan Universe taking place before the Burton/Schumacher verse.

Crazy idea that can work if you don't look at it too closely. lol