In hindsight what changes would you do

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You have the events out of place. He heard the story, then saw the hallucination of Ra's, then heard more of the story.

Actually, I thought he had the events right. EDIT: Actually he was wrong too. Bruce figures it out during the hallucination. I misread the post.

The sequence:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

----
[in his prison cell, Bruce rolls himself out of his cot and grunts in pain as he tries to do push-ups, the old prisoner in the next cell says something and the other prisoner translates]
Prisoner: He says you must first fix your back.
Bruce Wayne: How does he know?
[the prisoner helps Bruce get back into his cot]
Prisoner: Well, he was the prison doctor. He was morphine addict who incurred the displeasure of powerful people, including your masked friend.
Bruce Wayne: How?
Prisoner: Many years ago, it was a time of plague. Some of the other prisoners attacked Bane and the doctor's fumbling attempts to repair the damage left him in perpetual agony. The mask holds the pain at bay.
Bruce Wayne: Bane was the child you spoke of. He was born here?
Prisoner: The legend is that there was a mercenary who worked for a local warlord. He fell in love with the warlord's daughter. They were married in secret. When the warlord found out, the mercenary was condemned to this pit. But then he exiled him instead. The mercenary understood that the daughter had secured his release, but what he could not know was the true price of his freedom. She took his place in the pit.
[we see flashback of the Mercenary being freed at the side of a road and a woman being lowered into the pit of the prison and then later Bane as a child]
Prisoner: And she was with the child, with the...the mercenary's child. Innocence cannot flower underground. It has to be stamped out. One day the doctor forgot the lock the cell. But the child had a friend. A protector, who showed the others that this innocence was their redemption, it was to be prized. The mother was not so lucky.
[the old prison doctor says something, and the other prisoner gives him a knowing look]
Prisoner: This is Bane's prison now. He wouldn't want this story told.


----
[as Bruce hangs in cell, delirious from the pain in his back, he starts hallucinating]
Ra's Al Ghul: Did you not think I would return, Bruce? Hmm?
[Bruce looks up and sees Ra's Al Ghul step out from the shadows in front of Bruce]
Ra's Al Ghul: I told you I was immortal.
Bruce Wayne: I watched...I watched you die.
Ra's Al Ghul: Oh, there are many forms of immortality. Once I had a wife. My great love.
[we then see Ra's Al Ghul, sat at the campfire, as seen in Batman Begins]
Ra's Al Ghul: She was taken from me.
Bruce Wayne: You were the mercenary.
[back in the prison cell, Ra's Al Ghul nods his head]
Bruce Wayne: Bane is your child. Your heir.
Ra's Al Ghul: An heir to ensure the League of Shadows fulfills its duty to restore balance as a civilization.
Bruce Wayne: No.
Ra's Al Ghul: You yourself fought the decadence of Gotham for years. With all your strength, all your resources, all your moral authority. And the only victory you could achieve was a lie. Now you understand, Gotham is beyond saving.
Bruce Wayne: No!
Ra's Al Ghul: And must be allowed to die.
Bruce Wayne: No!
[Bruce passes out]

[Deserana]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Yes, I can appreciate that, but that was a storytelling choice he didn't need to make. As much as I appreciate what Nolan has done for the franchise, I'll never like the fact that he essentially boils down Batman's career to a one year period then a brief return. That's basically taking the hero with the best rogues gallery in comics and crapping all over that.

No it is taking a well known and well loved character and doing something different with it. Telling a complete character story than letting it be something that should continue forever. And behind it someone who doesn't say "well Penguin is well loved so he really should be in it at somepoint!" someone who puts his foot down and tells what he wants to tell.

[Schrute]

I like the inclusion of Talia, I just don't think the reveal makes much sense if in fact she did want to reveal herself to Bruce.

Also, one last line of dialogue after her reveal about Bane would have been nice. I have read, on this site and others, complaints about Banes motivation. I know he was her protector and came to Gotham with her to still be her protector but when she says he loved me and he begins to cry I always thought he came because just that, he loves her. But I think it would have been better if she said "we loved each other" , cause it makes Bane sound worse, IMO, if he did all this for a women he loves who doesn't love him back--along with what ever his other motivation was

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by Deserana

No it is taking a well known and well loved character and doing something different with it. Telling a complete character story than letting it be something that should continue forever. And behind it someone who doesn't say "well Penguin is well loved so he really should be in it at somepoint!" someone who puts his foot down and tells what he wants to tell.

I don't have a beef with Nolan not including any villains, but he basically structured his universe where there is almost literally no way for Bats to have duked it out with any other members of his rogues gallery. I personally am a Batman fan first and a Nolan fan second, it may seem petty to some of you but it's going to somewhat mar the trilogy for me whenever I consider it in the future.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Actually, I thought he had the events right. EDIT: Actually he was wrong too. Bruce figures it out during the hallucination. I misread the post.

The sequence:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

----
[in his prison cell, Bruce rolls himself out of his cot and grunts in pain as he tries to do push-ups, the old prisoner in the next cell says something and the other prisoner translates]
Prisoner: He says you must first fix your back.
Bruce Wayne: How does he know?
[the prisoner helps Bruce get back into his cot]
Prisoner: Well, he was the prison doctor. He was morphine addict who incurred the displeasure of powerful people, including your masked friend.
Bruce Wayne: How?
Prisoner: Many years ago, it was a time of plague. Some of the other prisoners attacked Bane and the doctor's fumbling attempts to repair the damage left him in perpetual agony. The mask holds the pain at bay.
Bruce Wayne: Bane was the child you spoke of. He was born here?
Prisoner: The legend is that there was a mercenary who worked for a local warlord. He fell in love with the warlord's daughter. They were married in secret. When the warlord found out, the mercenary was condemned to this pit. But then he exiled him instead. The mercenary understood that the daughter had secured his release, but what he could not know was the true price of his freedom. She took his place in the pit.
[we see flashback of the Mercenary being freed at the side of a road and a woman being lowered into the pit of the prison and then later Bane as a child]
Prisoner: And she was with the child, with the...the mercenary's child. Innocence cannot flower underground. It has to be stamped out. One day the doctor forgot the lock the cell. But the child had a friend. A protector, who showed the others that this innocence was their redemption, it was to be prized. The mother was not so lucky.
[the old prison doctor says something, and the other prisoner gives him a knowing look]
Prisoner: This is Bane's prison now. He wouldn't want this story told.


----
[as Bruce hangs in cell, delirious from the pain in his back, he starts hallucinating]
Ra's Al Ghul: Did you not think I would return, Bruce? Hmm?
[Bruce looks up and sees Ra's Al Ghul step out from the shadows in front of Bruce]
Ra's Al Ghul: I told you I was immortal.
Bruce Wayne: I watched...I watched you die.
Ra's Al Ghul: Oh, there are many forms of immortality. Once I had a wife. My great love.
[we then see Ra's Al Ghul, sat at the campfire, as seen in Batman Begins]
Ra's Al Ghul: She was taken from me.
Bruce Wayne: You were the mercenary.
[back in the prison cell, Ra's Al Ghul nods his head]
Bruce Wayne: Bane is your child. Your heir.
Ra's Al Ghul: An heir to ensure the League of Shadows fulfills its duty to restore balance as a civilization.
Bruce Wayne: No.
Ra's Al Ghul: You yourself fought the decadence of Gotham for years. With all your strength, all your resources, all your moral authority. And the only victory you could achieve was a lie. Now you understand, Gotham is beyond saving.
Bruce Wayne: No!
Ra's Al Ghul: And must be allowed to die.
Bruce Wayne: No!
[Bruce passes out]

So what does everyone think about Ra's' quote about Bruce fighting decadence for years? Looks like Nolan Bats did fight bad guys for more than just a year.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Yes, I can appreciate that, but that was a storytelling choice he didn't need to make. As much as I appreciate what Nolan has done for the franchise, I'll never like the fact that he essentially boils down Batman's career to a one year period then a brief return. That's basically taking the hero with the best rogues gallery in comics and crapping all over that.

Well, at least you can say you appreciate that even if you don't agree with it since the less wiser fans wouldn't, lol.

I understand how it seems that way with the rogue galleries being "crapped all over" with Bruce's time as Batman only a couple years, but I am pleased we at least got Batman's four(since I'm not counting Catwoman as she wasn't really shown as a villain) greatest villains.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

So what does everyone think about Ra's' quote about Bruce fighting decadence for years? Looks like Nolan Bats did fight bad guys for more than just a year.

I thought for sure that he did... isn't there at least two years between the end of BB and the start of TDK?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

So what does everyone think about Ra's' quote about Bruce fighting decadence for years? Looks like Nolan Bats did fight bad guys for more than just a year.

I always had figured Bruce did stay around as Batman until the very day the Dent Act was created. It had to take a while for something to be put into law, plus with Alfred saying it was a while when Bruce was in the Batcave when it wasn't even around during the events of TDK.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Yes, I can appreciate that, but that was a storytelling choice he didn't need to make. As much as I appreciate what Nolan has done for the franchise, I'll never like the fact that he essentially boils down Batman's career to a one year period then a brief return. That's basically taking the hero with the best rogues gallery in comics and crapping all over that.

This complaint runs the risk of encouraging the focus of a franchise / story to be upon the villains rather than upon the hero. So long as we continue to get good Batman stories, the question of which villains are or are not used isn't as big a deal to me. Telling a story that does justice and honor to the central character does not amount to crapping all over the mythos.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

So what does everyone think about Ra's' quote about Bruce fighting decadence for years? Looks like Nolan Bats did fight bad guys for more than just a year.

""You, yourself fought the decadence of Gotham for years with all your strength, all your resources, all your moral authority and the only victory you achieved was based on a lie"

That's the full quote. He sounds like he's saying the result of all this fighting was the Harvey Dent lie. Not that he spent years after that fighting bad guys. That wouldn't make sense. How could Batman be out fighting and capturing bad guys and nobody sees him when we know the last confirmed sighting of Batman was the night Dent died?

But then that years comment still doesn't make sense for Batman because it certainly wasn't years between Begins and TDK. So I'm assuming he means Bruce combating with his wealth, too, namely his failed clean energy project. He does mention his resources in that quote. Decadence has several meanings.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I always had figured Bruce did stay around as Batman until the very day the Dent Act was created. It had to take a while for something to be put into law, plus with Alfred saying it was a while when Bruce was in the Batcave when it wasn't even around during the events of TDK.

Exactly. Blake says that eight years ago was the last confirmed sighting of the Batman. That doesn't mean Bruce wasn't Batman in the days afterward for awhile, or that there weren't "unconfirmed" sightings.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

So what does everyone think about Ra's' quote about Bruce fighting decadence for years? Looks like Nolan Bats did fight bad guys for more than just a year.

Lol, that actually makes me feel a little better

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by The Joker

""You, yourself fought the decadence of Gotham for years with all your strength, all your resources, all your moral authority and the only victory you achieved was based on a lie"

That's the full quote. He sounds like he's saying the result of all this fighting was the Harvey Dent lie.

No, he doesn't say the lie was the result. He says the lie was the only victory out of all those years. That doesn't make the lie the end, necessarily.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

No, he doesn't say the lie was the result. He says the lie was the only victory out of all those years. That doesn't make the lie the end, necessarily.

I said it sounds like he's saying that. Couple that with the fact Batman's not been seen for 8 years, and if he was out fighting bad guys, there's no reason why they would not have reported it was him who caught them to let the Cops know he's still running around out there. He's not gone into hiding.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I said it sounds like he's saying that. Couple that with the fact Batman's not been seen for 8 years, and if he was out fighting bad guys, there's no reason why they would not have reported it was him who caught them to let the Cops know he's still running around out there. He's not gone into hiding.

That would be called an "unconfirmed sighting."

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That would be called an "unconfirmed sighting."

But why would they not confirm it was Batman who caught them? They're going to prison. They have nothing to lose confirming it was Batman.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by The Joker

But why would they not confirm it was Batman who caught them? They're going to prison. They have nothing to lose confirming it was Batman.

I'm not sure who you are speaking of, but surely Blake is referring to sightings that were confirmed by cops and not sightings that were "confirmed" by criminals? What is a criminal's confirmation worth anywho? Until confirmed by evidence or cops at the scene, it could be nothing but a lie - some thugs not wanting to admit they got beat up by a rival gang or something. Even if the cops suspect that the criminals are being truthful that in itself does not constitute "confirmation."

[The Joker]

Christopher Nolan: The end of ‘The Dark Knight’ left the characters in a pretty interesting place. Because we’re trying to make one unified story here, so it’s not another episode, another Batman episode, if you like. For me, that meant really trying to be true to where the characters were left. And Bruce Wayne, as Batman, has made a rather large sacrifice at the end of ’The Dark Knight.’ For that to mean something, he really has to have succeeded in a sense, in his mission. He has to have a Gotham that at least superficially doesn’t need Batman anymore. And that leaves him frozen. And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl. But he hasn’t been able to move on, he’s stuck. The jumping off point of the story was really the question of, “How can this person who has become disconnected, who is in a self-imposed exile from society, how can he reconnect with life?”

http://tvfilmnews.com/christopher-no...s-interview-2/

[ThePhantasm]

I'm not sure the Nolan quote necessitates anything. Blake also refers to the Dent Act being passed eight years ago, despite us knowing that TDKR starts on the eight year anniversary of Dent's death. You don't pass a law that quick. Instead the "eight years" is shorthand for describing the general passage of time. So Bruce could have continued keeping things under control for another, say, six months before the Dent Act was passed. Then he hangs up the cowl.

This is all conjecture but I'm just working with the vagueness of the info the film gives.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Mayor: Harvey Dent Day may not be our oldest public holiday, but we're here tonight because it's one of the most important. Harvey Dent's uncompromising stand against organized crime has made Gotham a safer place than it was at the time of his death, eight years ago. This city has seen a historic turn around. No city is without crime, but this city is without organized crime because of Dent's act gave law enforcement teeth in its fight against the mob. Now people are talking about repealing the Dent Act, and to them I say, not on my watch.

Blake: Those men, locked up for eight years in Blackgate, and denied parole under the Dent Act. It's based on a lie.

[MAKAVELI25]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Christopher Nolan: The end of ‘The Dark Knight’ left the characters in a pretty interesting place. Because we’re trying to make one unified story here, so it’s not another episode, another Batman episode, if you like. For me, that meant really trying to be true to where the characters were left. And Bruce Wayne, as Batman, has made a rather large sacrifice at the end of ’The Dark Knight.’ For that to mean something, he really has to have succeeded in a sense, in his mission. He has to have a Gotham that at least superficially doesn’t need Batman anymore. And that leaves him frozen. And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl. But he hasn’t been able to move on, he’s stuck. The jumping off point of the story was really the question of, “How can this person who has become disconnected, who is in a self-imposed exile from society, how can he reconnect with life?”

http://tvfilmnews.com/christopher-no...s-interview-2/

Kind of ends the debate

[ThePhantasm]

Only if you read that quote as eight literal 365 day (leap years excepted) years.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by MAKAVELI25

Kind of ends the debate

Pretty much. He out right says that 8 year period represents Bruce's retirement. Hanging up his cape and cowl but he cannot move on mentally.

The Phantasm, the way the law works in Nolan's movies is not meant to be indicative of real life. The Dent Act being passed in a short space of time is more believable than the RICO case of TDK for example.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Pretty much. He out right says that 8 year period represents Bruce's retirement. Hanging up his cape and cowl but he cannot move on mentally.

The Phantasm, the way the law works in Nolan's movies is not meant to be indicative of real life. The Dent Act being passed in a short space of time is more believable than the RICO case of TDK for example.

That seems like a bit of a cop-out to me, and necessitates that you take the phrase "eight years" totally literally to the full extent of each day in each year, when that isn't how people speak in everyday life. If I say I did something "eight years ago" I don't mean eight exact years, unless it is the anniversary of something. I don't take the time to say "seven years and one hundred thirteen days," I just say "eight years."

I'm not saying that Batman was going around fighting Mr. Freeze for six months or something like that, I'm just saying I don't see why the movie necessitates that I believe Bruce hung up his cowl on the night Harvey died.

[The Joker]

Bruce Wayne, as Batman, has made a rather large sacrifice at the end of ’The Dark Knight.’ For that to mean something, he really has to have succeeded in a sense, in his mission. He has to have a Gotham that at least superficially doesn’t need Batman anymore. And that leaves him frozen. And the eight year period is about showing that he’s retired in a sense, that he’s hung up his cape and his cowl. But he hasn’t been able to move on, he’s stuck

Whether it feels like a cop out or not (personally I was never a fan of the idea of Batman being retired for 8 years), but it's rather cut and dry what Nolan is saying. He is literally spelling it out that Batman made a sacrifice at the end of TDK, it worked, Gotham doesn't need Batman any more, and Bruce hung up his cape and cowl. The eight year period shows that. That's what Nolan said. The 8 year period is showing he retired, but mentally he has not been able to move on, hence why Alfred accuses him of lounging around waiting for things to go bad again.

Add to that in the movie they say the last time they had any confirmed sightings of Batman was the night Dent was killed, and it's about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the knees that the 8 year gap was 8 years of retirement.

Then there is also the fact that Nolan also said on the special features of the blu-ray that the cane Bruce hobbles around with in TDKR is a result of the fall Batman took with Dent in TDK. Can you see Batman going around active fighting crime with an injury like that?

I don't know how you could interpret it any other way than retirement. It sounds very straight forward, IMO.

[ThePhantasm]

Well, like I said earlier, I'm not arguing that Bruce didn't hang up the cowl that night. But Nolan's statements aside, the film itself leaves it a bit ambiguous I think. Either that, or the film has some serious errors in timeline and in the characters' basic understanding of how laws work / are passed. Either of those are fine explanations, I suppose. Either 1) its ambiguous or 2) its a mistake. Not sure how else to work it.

I can't help but feel baffled at times and think that Nolan misinterpreted the ending to his own film (TDK). Or that Gordon was wrong. "Because he can take it..." apparently not.