Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 6

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by American Maid

LokiDionysos said:



(I missed this earlier; it looks like you may have added it later.)

Wow, that sound pretty fearsome for both Jane and Darcy! I guess this would be a case of being careful of what you wish for (if this is how it plays out). Jane is certainly relevant to the story in a way that goes beyond being a love interest (and connected to her work). And Darcy has a larger role.

(As I observed earlier, this is an unusual treatment for one of the good guys, but not unprecedented. And I'm still not 100% thrilled, but I'll run with it here.)

But why would those guys need Jane and Darcy? They're so powerful on their own. And if they do possess J&D, why would they need to do so for more than 10 seconds, long enough to get all the knowledge they need? And while opening a portal is a mean feat for a Midgardian, by your outline the people of Midgard are not all that powerful. So why would it be useful to possess Jane and Darcy?

In my theory Surtur and Odin have already had a conflict in the past...

Malekith was involved in this conflict, so this is like Malekith setting up a re-match between Odin and Surtur.

Mal leads an all out assault on the physical side of existence in the Asgardian realms-- but there are two sides to the universe like Malekith's face... There's that invisible, interconnected, anti-matter/dark matter universe. The magic side. The Dark forces Hela and Surtur.

Odin couldn't banish Hela and Surtur to their own realms and physically stop them from re-entering Asgard at some point.
Hel would still exist as a place the Asgardians could visit, but Hela is gone because of this conflict. Banished to non-existence or spaces in-between time and dimensions.

So Odin trapped them in the invisible parts of the universe for all eternity. What humans call dark matter or anti-matter. There's so much of it that exists out in the cosmos, but it's also filling the spaces between all matter.
It's on the inside of Yggdrasil. Traveling through the xylem and phloem of the tree, and connected to the roots.

Hela exists in a realm that is at the roots of the world tree. So the roots of where everything begins, and where the world tree is all connected to. Hela collects souls while Niddhogg is a being that gnaws at the roots of the world tree. Combine Nidhogg and Surtur in some ways and tie that into Hela's collection of souls. A lot of souls will be collected from the war Malekith sparks before he comes to Earth to open a portal. Once he physically gets Surtur and Hela to midgard they will be able to re-enter Asgard, and to live again in the physical side of existence.

In my view Hela needs more souls to overcome the enchantment preventing her and Surtur from ever returning to physical existence... she still has a little more control while in her realm: Niffleheim/Hel. Malekith got off light, because they didn't know he was involved the first time Surtur attacked Asgard.

So the reason she has to possess Jane is that Surtur tried to kill Odin once before and Odin has banished them from existence. Hela is beginning to be able to operate in Midgard. She cannot enter the physical world and needs to continue feeding Surtur Asgardian souls from the battle raging above to bring him and herself to full power... Malekith has been contacted to raise a little hell because of his connection to the dark side of universe and magic.

Once Jane is free from Hela's control (help from Thor, Selvig, or solving it herself), Hela has to skip to Darcy because enough souls/life energy have not been gathered to break Odin's spell/temporal vortex trap yet. Darcy is easier to control, she's darker herself and lacks the will/strong mind that Jane has. Which may allow Jane to shake off a de-powered Hela temporarily until she figures out a permanent solution. Jane can become an asset again but we're unsure if Hela can return to her or not. This is different than when Loki possessed Selvig. Selvig has residual effects from the tesseract, but Loki can't instantly return to him, he has to do some work to get there. The Tesseract represents the encompassing nature of the first four dimensions constrained by time... and can be the sum of their power... It's a hypercube, a four-dimensional representation of space. A cube within a cube. Time, or in some cases death, is the theoretical fourth dimension. Here it may be represented in the physical side of things by parts of the fourth realm, who have a gate to time connecting to stonehenge. Which ties even more into time and space, the movement of the cosmos, and opens to the mysterious ways of Vanaheim. Truly taking Thor through all 9 worlds, in a way.


Some random info about Vanaheim I just pulled up:
"This was the home of the Vanir gods. The Vanir gods are an old branch of gods. The word “heim” means home. The Vanir were masters of sorcery and magic. They are also widely recognized for their talent to predict the future.
After the war between the Aesir gods and the Vanir gods, three of the Vanir came to live at Asgard. Frigga , her twin brother Frey and their father named Njord
Nobody had mastered sorcery better than Frigga. She was the one who taught Odin the secrets of magic."

http://marvel.wikia.com/Vanaheim

Now you can see where some of this predicting the future stuff may tie in. The Vanir are a little bit involved in time. In Norse mythology they're a more mysterious group than they are in the comics.

[itchyscratch]

Well, I'm fairly bored with the bog standard "I know something but I can't tell you what it is" posts that invariably turn up on spoiler boards. So this is a nice variation I suppose. "I kind of know something and I'll subtly hint what it is by (possibly) hiding the information in the middle of a dozen or so three trillion word speculative posts."

[LokiDionysos]

That's why I'm different and not a plant or a troll I could be right about some of the interconnecting theories, but I'm probably not even close to having it all figured out, lol. Honestly, some parts of my overall theory have been inspired by some of the ideas here in altered forms, things I suspect are true. And connect to some other things in some ways.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

I will say that what I do know for sure has something to do with one of the bigger villains and being Eternal. However, this Eternal character is not Immortus. It just makes me think Immortus will overshadow phase 2 and 3 as well and tie in with how they portray the Eternal on the big-screen. The Tesseract can even transform one into a god. This individual may be after multiple cosmic cubes instead of what I speculated at one point about the left and right "gloves". I don't know for sure. I could actually see the IG working if another assembled version is created out of a time paradox. The same time paradox that brings the Magus into existence as an alternate version of Warlock. Lol pretty damn obvious whose backstory I'm referring to. I may need to edit this later

Malekith's face is almost foreshadowing and symbolizing that there are two sides to everything, and there could be a couple versions of things, different versions of characters. Some who pop up as further foreshadowing of this, and Thor falling for the double trick in a new way. As well as two Ant Men, but one of them is Lang and he probably dies.

[itchyscratch]

If you're only speculating then you don't need to put things in spoiler tags, as they're not spoilers.

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by itchyscratch

If you're only speculating then you don't need to put things in spoiler tags, as they're not spoilers.

What I know has to do with where the Eternal comes from, and possibly what they're doing with part of GoTG because of that.
It very well could lead to spoilers, or get me in trouble if I'm not careful. It's so far away I'm not worried now, as so many things can change by that time.

Part of a plan to address how this person gets their powers, things like that.

[Godzilla2000]

Hmmm....I've been researching these Eternals, but aren't they immortal creatures who gain their supernatural abilities through a bond with the power cosmic? I was reading that they can create portals to other dimensions, but it depletes their cosmic energy little by little the more they use their power.

[cherokeesam]

I think people are going off the reservation with some of this speculation. All this talk about Vanir, Eternals, Hela, Karnilla....where is all this coming from, beyond fertile imaginations?

Let's ground things a bit more realistically: the casting for this movie is very likely already finished, so it's just wishlisting when you start trying to introduce characters that haven't even been remotely hinted at in casting calls, set reports, script leaks, and the like.

All these extraneous characters and plot lines you guys are dreaming up: how about leaving that stuff for fanfic? Might be more productive to speculate on what we actually see, hear and read from reports, instead of making up stuff whole cloth.

[R_Hythlodeus]

Originally Posted by Bren

I'm very simplistic. I want science to be science (even if it's not fully understood yet) and magic be magic that is not understood by anyone who is not a magician.


Basically, I want magic to be fully in the MCU.

I know how you feel, because i feel the exact opposite.
and by that, I don't say that I don't want 'magic to be fully', but there should be no clear distinction between science and magic. just things we can not explain (ans won't be explained to us) that we can only perceive as magic. those are not the early stan lee era comics, the characters don't have to explain every move the make. instead of 'now I channel the cosmic forces through the power of quantum radiation that yadda yadda whatever' just let the character channel the stuff abd get over it. was it magic? was it science? does it matter in the end if the outcome is the same?
as long as we perceive it as magical, it is magic. to us.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus

I know how you feel, because i feel the exact opposite.
and by that, I don't say that I don't want 'magic to be fully', but there should be no clear distinction between science and magic. just things we can not explain (ans won't be explained to us) that we can only perceive as magic. those are not the early stan lee era comics, the characters don't have to explain every move the make. instead of 'now I channel the cosmic forces through the power of quantum radiation that yadda yadda whatever' just let the character channel the stuff abd get over it. was it magic? was it science? does it matter in the end if the outcome is the same?
as long as we perceive it as magical, it is magic. to us.

You make a good point. If they spend too much time on exposition as to how this could work, it can sound very stilted, like the early books. So maybe what they'll do is say something like, "Humanity might understand it someday. It might be connected to the field of X. RIght now, though, we can't really explain it. But you can't deny what just happened."

[elizah72]

I had PM'd with American Maid this but I'm just going to put this in here for people to think about...

I just out of curiosity looked at the list of cast on IMDB for Thor and Thor 2. 78 listed for Thor there (I'm guessing 25-30 of those were speaking roles?) and only 27 listed for Thor 2 so far (with maybe 20 that are likely to be speaking roles so far). 70 listed for Avengers there. If they are really going to explore the 9 realms or most of them then that's A LOT more that just Dark Elves, and we can be certain that A LOT is going to be added yet for Thor 2 in IMDB.

so in short there is A LOT of casting that we probably don't even know about, and like Alexis Denisof as The Other in Avengers, we may not find out about some of them until the movie is out or close to it.

[R_Hythlodeus]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I had PM'd with American Maid this but I'm just going to put this in here for people to think about...



so in short there is A LOT of casting that we probably don't even know about, and like Alexis Denisof as The Other in Avengers, we may not find out about some of them until the movie is out or close to it.

and almost all of them will be extras or very minor roles like 'police officer #5'

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I had PM'd with American Maid this but I'm just going to put this in here for people to think about...



so in short there is A LOT of casting that we probably don't even know about, and like Alexis Denisof as The Other in Avengers, we may not find out about some of them until the movie is out or close to it.

Good point elizah72. It could be that most of the Thor 2 casting is done already, but that does not mean we know everything about the film or all of who is in it, and I agree there are somethings we will most likely not learn about it until seeing it in the Theater.

Surfer

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus

and almost all of them will be extras or very minor roles like 'police officer #5'

Yup. *ALMOST*, and maybe instead of police officer #5 we have Troll or Light Elf #5? Hm? Seeing as this is supposed to be more about Thor's world than Earth, certainly possible.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I had PM'd with American Maid this but I'm just going to put this in here for people to think about...



so in short there is A LOT of casting that we probably don't even know about, and like Alexis Denisof as The Other in Avengers, we may not find out about some of them until the movie is out or close to it.

IMDB's cast list is peer-created, so there's tons of extras who are proudly posting their non-speaking "roles" there, even though an extra doesn't even get (or deserve) a credit in the film. (I know: I've been an extra in four different movies.) Plus, there's tons of joke casting rumors there, speculation, and other misinformation.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

IMDB's cast list is peer-created, so there's tons of extras who are proudly posting their non-speaking "roles" there, even though an extra doesn't even get (or deserve) a credit in the film. (I know: I've been an extra in four different movies.) Plus, there's tons of joke casting rumors there, speculation, and other misinformation.

Oh, I'm well aware of all of that happening sometimes on IMDB, however it's the only semi reliable gauge we have online I think for a cast listing which is why I referred to it to try to get a general idea. And I can certainly go through and count all the speaking roles that I recall in the first film, and it seems likely there are at least a few more small parts yet to be revealed for the second. Keep in mind also, a chunk of the time in the first film was spent introducing all the main characters and setting up some things as far as characterizations with those characters. They don't have to do that nearly as much in Thor 2. People know who they are and so they can just let them play, and get on with the story. And possibly in turn give a bit of time to introducing other new characters, even if only briefly. So don't count out some more additions to the speaking roles we won't know about until later.

RE: Thor 2 a few weeks ago, "we've got a great new, set of new characters coming in, it's going to be fantastic..." ~ Idris Elba

[elizah72]

just came across a tweet that says they were filming on South Bank today.

Andrew Lake ‏@Andrew7photo
#thor2 being filmed in London today, on south bank.

niklaus mikaelson ‏@unsolvable
@andrew7photo where abouts on south bank were they filming? I'm in the area and fancy having a nosy!


Andrew Lake ‏@Andrew7photo
@unsolvable London SE1, near Hatfields

[Bren]

Originally Posted by R_Hythlodeus

I know how you feel, because i feel the exact opposite.
and by that, I don't say that I don't want 'magic to be fully', but there should be no clear distinction between science and magic. just things we can not explain (ans won't be explained to us) that we can only perceive as magic. every those are not the early stan lee era comics, the characters don't have to explain move the make. instead of 'now I channel the cosmic forces through the power of quantum radiation that yadda yadda whatever' just let the character channel the stuff abd get over it. was it magic? was it science? does it matter in the end if the outcome is the same?
as long as we perceive it as magical, it is magic. to us.

I don't care for or want them to explain anything. What I don't want is the suggestion from Asgardians/magic users that anything humans cannot explain or comprehend might just be a form of advanced science. If humans want to assume this, fine.

I don't really care enough anyway - In Thor they suggested it, and it didn't in any way ruin the film, so ya, just a preference.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I think people are going off the reservation with some of this speculation. All this talk about Vanir, Eternals, Hela, Karnilla....where is all this coming from, beyond fertile imaginations?

Let's ground things a bit more realistically: the casting for this movie is very likely already finished, so it's just wishlisting when you start trying to introduce characters that haven't even been remotely hinted at in casting calls, set reports, script leaks, and the like.

All these extraneous characters and plot lines you guys are dreaming up: how about leaving that stuff for fanfic? Might be more productive to speculate on what we actually see, hear and read from reports, instead of making up stuff whole cloth.

I am totally with you. I do see Hela. But everything else, I am totally with you.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by American Maid

You make a good point. If they spend too much time on exposition as to how this could work, it can sound very stilted, like the early books. So maybe what they'll do is say something like, "Humanity might understand it someday. It might be connected to the field of X. RIght now, though, we can't really explain it. But you can't deny what just happened."

Agreed. I do still think magic is magic in the mcu.

Originally Posted by elizah72

just came across a tweet that says they were filming on South Bank today.

Andrew Lake ‏@Andrew7photo
#thor2 being filmed in London today, on south bank.

niklaus mikaelson ‏@unsolvable
@andrew7photo where abouts on south bank were they filming? I'm in the area and fancy having a nosy!


Andrew Lake ‏@Andrew7photo
@unsolvable London SE1, near Hatfields

i just want filming to finish. That way we could get some teaser footage

[darkslayer101]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Agreed. I do still think magic is magic in the mcu.



i just want filming to finish. That way we could get some teaser footage

i think any first footage we are gonna catch is on April with the phase 1 set...

[mkilban2]

If you guys didn't read through LokiDionysos's earlier posts because you thought they were too long or didn't matter I suggest you go back and read them. I was going to bulletpoint them for everyone but I'm too lazy, maybe I will in a little bit here though haha. But seriously he's got really, really good ideas and apparently some sort of inside information.

The stuff about all the timeline's being merged together makes a lot of sense about Hel and other places being below Earth and trying to worth their way up the Tree of Life to Asgard and above is brilliant. Also if you read them carefully he seems to give some hints to his main points with subtle smileys and "..."'s or at least that's what I thought.

I'd love to hear some more from ya Loki, and really hope you're not pulling our legs! haha

[M-2]

Came across this article, Chris Hemsworth speaking about TDW

On Returning To Asgard For:

We've known since Thor 1 that we were gonna do a Thor 2, so we've been talking about possibilities, and then once The Avengers worked, there were things where we'd go, "Cool, we can continue this and this is where we go from them with the story." It's been a long time. But you always need this period, the rehearsal prep, and we've got some good stuff down. I just saw some of the sets in the last few days and it looks incredible. There's a lot more of an organic kind of feel to Asgard now. And that Viking element of the Asgardian people, of Thor's history, is much more present.

On Alan Taylor's Style:

It's less science fiction. I mean, if you look at Game Of Thrones, what I love about it is that it has that mythical element but you're always grounded in such an organic world. I think that's the goal scored second time round.

On How The Success Of Marvel's The Avengers is Affecting His Outlook:

You almost forget that this just doesn't happen that often. I was talking to Matt Damon and he goes to me, "So Snow White did pretty good?" and I said, "Yeah, I think it'll probably hit $400 million, but it's not Avengers numbers." And he goes, "Man!" and he shook his head. "You're [frick]ing ruined - 400's huge!" It's like my brain thinks, "That's the norm now, that's the benchmark." Which, Jesus, I don't think anything will ever come close...Probably Avengers 2. But it will be pretty hard to hit that again. It's almost as if I've been ruined for the rest of my career regarding box office expectations.

On Bringing Thor to the Big Screen for a Third Time:

In a way, it becomes more difficult at this point. Thor 1 was the origin story and he starts off as a brash child and ends as the hero; the danger then is, where does he go from here? If he doesn't change, he's gonna become boring. How do you break him down again to rebuild him and have some sort of arc, some sort of journey? Avengers was different, it was the arc of the team. So now, on [Thor 2], we've been really throwing around, "Okay, so what's Thor's big conflict here?" Because it can't just be that bad tempter again, or that he's too cocky. We've done that. And now, where does the humour lie? Because it can't be the fish-out-of-water, Crocodile Dundee kind of thing that we had in the first one. He's been to Earth now. There may be elements of that...

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by mkilban2

If you guys didn't read through LokiDionysos's earlier posts because you thought they were too long or didn't matter I suggest you go back and read them. I was going to bulletpoint them for everyone but I'm too lazy, maybe I will in a little bit here though haha. But seriously he's got really, really good ideas and apparently some sort of inside information.

The stuff about all the timeline's being merged together makes a lot of sense about Hel and other places being below Earth and trying to worth their way up the Tree of Life to Asgard and above is brilliant. Also if you read them carefully he seems to give some hints to his main points with subtle smileys and "..."'s or at least that's what I thought.

I'd love to hear some more from ya Loki, and really hope you're not pulling our legs! haha

I enjoy reading them even if none of it turns out to be in the film.

That said, I encourage people writing long proposed plot synopses to put them in the "Plot Ideas Based on Spoilers" thread, since that's where a lot of similar posts are. That keeps this thread free for late breaking news, new spoilers, pictures, and one-off commentary.

I have created a post there that links to LokiDionysos' various posts. I also have a summary of what each post addresses. It's on page 7 of the thread, but you can also search the thread for "TimeTravel" or "LokiDionysos" to find it.

When writing posts, it might also help to connect the dots a little better, especially when it involves specialized knowledge. For example, I said something a little while back about Einstein-Rosen bridges. Jon (Aqua) was kind enough to step in and clarify that E-R bridges refer to wormholes, in case anyone was unfamiliar with them (Thanks, Jon).

Another helpful technique: tie the ideas to confirmed information as much as possible. Here is an example from Elizah, discussing her ideas of what a fight early in the film might be, based on specific details in photos from Bourne Woods. I think this approach to writing helps people understand how you arrived at the proposal you have, and helps them to see why it might be plausible.

In particular check out the picture of Hela's army. The guys in the Bourne woods do not look dead like this but the helmets and dress look similar, also at least some warriors have black around their eyes that I've seen that make me wonder about them looking more dead with some CGI later. And many look like demons or trolls, and different people, which according to info I've read about Nornheim, there are all sorts of different beings living in Nornheim. This would explain such a vast array of characters in the pictures (none of which appear to be Dark Elves). Anyway, I dont want to reiterate every point that was in the Kurse thread, but it seems like it is very likely this scenario here that this is Nornheim vs Vanaheim or vs Niflheim and then Thor and the Asgardian soldiers step in.

Finally, the advice I've been given many times, and still have to work on to achieve: Less Hugo, more Hemmingway. (i.e., be brief; less is more)

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Another helpful technique: tie the ideas to confirmed information as much as possible. Here is an example from Elizah, discussing her ideas of what a fight early in the film might be, based on specific details in photos from Bourne Woods. I think this approach to writing helps people understand how you arrived at the proposal you have, and helps them to see why it might be plausible.

How is this example based on "confirmed information"....? She begins with a wild assumption about a character (Hela) who most definitely has NOT been confirmed --- or even rumored --- to be in this movie at all, and proceeds to pile wild assumption on wild assumption.

If we're just going to go around making wild stabs in the dark here, then I'm going on record as saying that the Bourne Woods battle is between Beta Ray Bill's army and a bunch of drunk Rock Trolls on a bender. Just because I say so.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

How is this example based on "confirmed information"....? She begins with a wild assumption about a character (Hela) who most definitely has NOT been confirmed --- or even rumored --- to be in this movie at all, and proceeds to pile wild assumption on wild assumption.

If we're just going to go around making wild stabs in the dark here, then I'm going on record as saying that the Bourne Woods battle is between Beta Ray Bill's army and a bunch of drunk Rock Trolls on a bender. Just because I say so.

Just to be clear I've since most definitely changed my mind about that being Hela's army. Although she has been rumored to be the Alice Krige role (along with other possibilities). So confirmed information is that Alice Krige will have a role, then speculating on what that role might be, is what that was about.

However, I do think actually opening one's eyes and looking closely at the pictures, and in particular who is fighting who, while not a perfect method IS helpful if you want to try to figure out what the story involves.