The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

[axecrazy]

Bruce's last real on screen conversation with Vicki also took on a new dimension to an older me:

Bruce: Look, sometimes I don't know what to think about this. It's just something I have to do.

Vicki: why?!

Bruce: Because I'm the only one who can.

A simple statement, but filled with truth on multiple levels. Various writers have tried over the years to pass on the mantle to other characters... but it never really works. Bruce has something that makes him irreplaceable as Batman. Everyone else is viewed as an imposter by both readers and other characters when they try to do his job. Why is that? What makes him so special? That's a big question... one that can at least be partially answered by is schizophrenic nature. Also, his origin is unique among superheroes. It shaped him as much as he shaped himself through concious choice and long training.


Bruce: I tried to avoid all this but I can't. This is how it is [being Batman]. It's not a perfect world.

Vicki: It doesn't have to be a perfect world. I just gotta know if we're going to try to love each other.

Bruce: *looks sad* I'd like to. *bat-voice begins to emerge* But he's out there right now, and I gotta go to work. *turns away to the batsuit*

Something tells me that this is how Bruce's relationships with normal women will always end. They can't handle his duality because it feels like they're in an intimate relationship with two very different men. One is fairly normal...and the other ultimately frightens them. Not that they believe Batman will ever intentionally hurt them, but he is always dark presence... a void they can't fully understand. Even Doctor Chase Meridian, who helps him reconcile the two aspects of himself, leaves him in the end. Bruce finds bad girls more akin to himself, but those relationships always end with them trying to knife him in the back. They're crooks at the end of the day. He can't win. *sigh* Our boy is destined to be a lonely bachelor for the rest of his days.

And now, after looking back, I can finally pinpoint why Nolan's Batman feels false to me. Because his Batman was never really Batman at all. Just some whiny rich kid dressed in kevlar who can't decide what he really wants, and thus is unimpressive in almost every way. A weirdly dressed James Bond cut out with ninja training is how I sum up Nolan's Batman. Even Schumacher's Batman is more impressive as an individual. I mean at least Schumacher's Batman made his own Batman stuff and didn't take **** from his butler. Remove the neon, costume aesthetics, nipples, and ass-shots and Schumachers Batman suddenly looks way more like what we've come to expect from our hero. He's supposed to be an extraordinary in every sense, not some regular Joe in a weird suit he can afford just because he's rich.

Nolan and Bale utterly fail to convey that Bruce Wayne is fractured at his core... their Batman is wholly false because he is a mere construct, a 'symbol' Bruce creates to hide behind because he can't find a way to confront Gotham's problems as Bruce Wayne. Whereas the real Batman knows exactly what he's about, and uses both personalities in his struggle against injustice. He was literally born the night Thomas and Martha Wayne died and Bruce shut down to grieve. Tim Burton, Bruce Timm, and even Joel Schumacher got that critical part right. Nolan did not.

[BlueLightning]

Well, there are many interpretations of Batman. The whole thing of "Bruce Wayne died with his parents" never seamed well with me. That's why I like a lot more Nolan's Batman, he is more human.

Something that I liked a lot of "Mask of the Phantasm" was that before being Batman he was given the chance of happiness with Andrea. The whole speech of "I didn't count on being happy" is very powerful, and adds a lot of gravitas to the character.

The fact that Bruce didn't want to be Batman forever was a very realist take on the character. Who wants to be hated? Who really wants to be a pariah of society? But the thing is, Bruce will do it if he has to. "I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be". That sacrifice screams Batman, and shows why the character is so compelling.

I like Burton's Batman too, but I don't see it as a definitive version of the character. That goes to DCAU Batman.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Well, there are many interpretations of Batman. The whole thing of "Bruce Wayne died with his parents" never seamed well with me. That's why I like a lot more Nolan's Batman, he is more human.

Something that I liked a lot of "Mask of the Phantasm" was that before being Batman he was given the chance of happiness with Andrea. The whole speech of "I didn't count on being happy" is very powerful, and adds a lot of gravitas to the character.

The fact that Bruce didn't want to be Batman forever was a very realist take on the character. Who wants to be hated? Who really wants to be a pariah of society? But the thing is, Bruce will do it if he has to. "I'm whatever Gotham needs me to be". That sacrifice screams Batman, and shows why the character is so compelling.

I like Burton's Batman too, but I don't see it as a definitive version of the character. That goes to DCAU Batman.

That's one of my favorite scenes in any Batman related media.

[Elevator Man]

Originally Posted by axecrazy

Bruce's last real on screen conversation with Vicki also took on a new dimension to an older me:

Bruce: Look, sometimes I don't know what to think about this. It's just something I have to do.

Vicki: why?!

Bruce: Because I'm the only one who can.

That's the difference between Keaton's portrayal of Batman to Bale's portrayal. Keaton wouldn't pass the burden of being Batman to a young cop without any training whatsoever he hardly even knows just so he can live happily ever after.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by axecrazy

Bruce's last real on screen conversation with Vicki also took on a new dimension to an older me:

Bruce: Look, sometimes I don't know what to think about this. It's just something I have to do.

Vicki: why?!

Bruce: Because I'm the only one who can.

A simple statement, but filled with truth on multiple levels. Various writers have tried over the years to pass on the mantle to other characters... but it never really works. Bruce has something that makes him irreplaceable as Batman. Everyone else is viewed as an imposter by both readers and other characters when they try to do his job. Why is that? What makes him so special? That's a big question... one that can at least be partially answered by is schizophrenic nature. Also, his origin is unique among superheroes. It shaped him as much as he shaped himself through concious choice and long training.


Bruce: I tried to avoid all this but I can't. This is how it is [being Batman]. It's not a perfect world.

Vicki: It doesn't have to be a perfect world. I just gotta know if we're going to try to love each other.

Bruce: *looks sad* I'd like to. *bat-voice begins to emerge* But he's out there right now, and I gotta go to work. *turns away to the batsuit*

Something tells me that this is how Bruce's relationships with normal women will always end. They can't handle his duality because it feels like they're in an intimate relationship with two very different men. One is fairly normal...and the other ultimately frightens them. Not that they believe Batman will ever intentionally hurt them, but he is always dark presence... a void they can't fully understand. Even Doctor Chase Meridian, who helps him reconcile the two aspects of himself, leaves him in the end. Bruce finds bad girls more akin to himself, but those relationships always end with them trying to knife him in the back. They're crooks at the end of the day. He can't win. *sigh* Our boy is destined to be a lonely bachelor for the rest of his days.

And now, after looking back, I can finally pinpoint why Nolan's Batman feels false to me. Because his Batman was never really Batman at all. Just some whiny rich kid dressed in kevlar who can't decide what he really wants, and thus is unimpressive in almost every way. A weirdly dressed James Bond cut out with ninja training is how I sum up Nolan's Batman. Even Schumacher's Batman is more impressive as an individual. I mean at least Schumacher's Batman made his own Batman stuff and didn't take **** from his butler. Remove the neon, costume aesthetics, nipples, and ass-shots and Schumachers Batman suddenly looks way more like what we've come to expect from our hero. He's supposed to be an extraordinary in every sense, not some regular Joe in a weird suit he can afford just because he's rich.

Nolan and Bale utterly fail to convey that Bruce Wayne is fractured at his core... their Batman is wholly false because he is a mere construct, a 'symbol' Bruce creates to hide behind because he can't find a way to confront Gotham's problems as Bruce Wayne. Whereas the real Batman knows exactly what he's about, and uses both personalities in his struggle against injustice. He was literally born the night Thomas and Martha Wayne died and Bruce shut down to grieve. Tim Burton, Bruce Timm, and even Joel Schumacher got that critical part right. Nolan did not.

I agree entirety.

Even just seeing that exchange with Vicki in text is a perfect example of the kind of nuanced and organic characterization and dialogue that made up B89.

Vastly better than the precisely explained verbiage of Nolan's films.

[CGHulk]

Michael Keaton is the best Bruce Wayne/Batman ever to be put on screen!

[shauner111]

Not even.

[CConn]

Yes, actually. By far.

Everyone gets so concerned about the plastic vinere of the "Playboy Bruce" that they completely overlook the depth and nuance of Keaton's performance. He played the real Bruce.

Not some campy over the top fallacy, but the real, solitary yet inside, psychotic yet innocent Bruce Wayne. And he did it in a way that both made it incredibly believable, as well as inexplicably likeable.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by CConn

Yes, actually. By far.

Everyone gets so concerned about the plastic vinere of the "Playboy Bruce" that they completely overlook the depth and nuance of Keaton's performance. He played the real Bruce.

Not some campy over the top fallacy, but the real, solitary yet inside, psychotic yet innocent Bruce Wayne. And he did it in a way that both made it incredibly believable, as well as inexplicably likeable.

While I disagree, Keaton performance is great, is just that is not something that I prefer. For me, Bale performance nails Bruce Wayne as a whole: the facade, the monster and the real man.

[CConn]

I never knew the real Bruce Wayne was a whiny little child who let everyone else he knows dictate his entire life.

[BlueLightning]

I don't see how you arrived to that conclusion, but to each his own I guess.

[spidermanJLA!~]

I'd have to agree that Keaton's was deeper, and Bale I felt was great in BB, but after that being Batman became a learning experience for Bruce imo. I feel that Nolan caught the physical and mental innocence of Bruce, while Burton was more about the
complete psychology of Bruce.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

I don't see how you arrived to that conclusion, but to each his own I guess.

Through utilization of my eyes, ears and brain while watching Nolan's movies.

[BlueLightning]

I think Keaton's portrayal was great and I enjoy it a lot, but in respect to character, there is something that just doesn't click. He seems kinda deranged and psychotic. There are many interpretations of Batman, this is just not my cup of tea.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

I think Keaton's portrayal was great and I enjoy it a lot, but in respect to character, there is something that just doesn't click. He seems kinda deranged and psychotic. There are many interpretations of Batman, this is just not my cup of tea.

I have to agree with this. I love Burton's batfilms, but Nolan's Batman is much closer to how I perceive the character. BTAS / Mask of the Phantasm is even closer than that.

[spidermanJLA!~]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

I think Keaton's portrayal was great and I enjoy it a lot, but in respect to character, there is something that just doesn't click. He seems kinda deranged and psychotic. There are many interpretations of Batman, this is just not my cup of tea.

I agree. Didn't Keaton study TDK Returns for his portrayal?

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by CConn

I never knew the real Bruce Wayne was a whiny little child who let everyone else he knows dictate his entire life.

If that was true, Bruce would have simply followed Ra's all the way and went through with his League of Shadows initiation. These movies have plenty of instances of Bruce taking certain actions in spite of the objection of those around him (Lucius, Rachel, Gordon, Alfred).

Yes, the Nolan films expounded upon their themes with some on the nose dialogue in some places, but that doesn't mean Bruce wasn't a fiercely driven self-made man with his own very personally developed sense of morals and idealism. It's just a fact of life that our own relationships and experience help shape our worldview. That doesn't make us any less individual.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

If that was true, Bruce would have simply followed Ra's all the way and went through with his League of Shadows initiation. These movies have plenty of instances of Bruce taking certain actions in spite of the objection of those around him (Lucius, Rachel, Gordon, Alfred).

Yes, the Nolan films expounded upon their themes with some on the nose dialogue in some places, but that doesn't mean Bruce wasn't a fiercely driven self-made man with his own very personally developed sense of morals and idealism. It's just a fact of life that our own relationships and experience help shape our worldview. That doesn't make us any less individual.

No, that's not accurate at all, actually.

The only reason Bruce rebelled against executing that guy was because of Rachel's previous condemnation of it.

Actually, pretty much all of Bruce's core beliefs and motivations sprung from a desire to please Rachel or align with her own morals. Which, as others have already said, is pretty weak compared to Keaton's Batman who was entirely driven by his parents ' death and his own morals; not borrowed from anyone.

[Travesty]

I never would have thought I would say it, but I side with CConn on this one.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by CConn

No, that's not accurate at all, actually.

The only reason Bruce rebelled against executing that guy was because of Rachel's previous condemnation of it.

Actually, pretty much all of Bruce's core beliefs and motivations sprung from a desire to please Rachel or align with her own morals. Which, as others have already said, is pretty weak compared to Keaton's Batman who was entirely driven by his parents ' death and his own morals; not borrowed from anyone.

Wasn't that because of his father? "Your father would be ashamed of you.".

[CConn]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Wasn't that because of his father? "Your father would be ashamed of you.".

He portrayed pretty little reverence for his family in pretty much all the other scenes of the movie (all of that embarrassing the family name stuff), yet listened to Rachel nearly every single time she spoke. It's pretty clear what his motivating factor was.

[CConn]

Although, I guess you could argue that, in his mind, Rachel represented a link to his past, and a line to the morality and logic held by his parents.

But it's still pretty weak that he needs a middle (wo)man to explain everything to him.

[spidermanJLA!~]

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by CConn

No, that's not accurate at all, actually.

The only reason Bruce rebelled against executing that guy was because of Rachel's previous condemnation of it.

Actually, pretty much all of Bruce's core beliefs and motivations sprung from a desire to please Rachel or align with her own morals. Which, as others have already said, is pretty weak compared to Keaton's Batman who was entirely driven by his parents ' death and his own morals; not borrowed from anyone.

But that's still ignoring all the ways he behaved that went against the people around him in the later two films.

In TDK, he was willing to turn himself in which opposed Alfred's advice for him to "endure". Then when he lets Dent take the blame, this only serves to infuriate Rachel. He also set up the whole sonar device without Lucius' knowledge, which put him on thin ice with Lucius for a moment there. Takes the blame for Dent despite Gordon's objections. Then of course in TDKR he suits up again despite Alfred's pleas and it leaves him utterly isolated. It's a gross generalization to say he was nothing but a mouthpiece for the supporting characters' ideals through all of the films.

He has a lot of various formative influences in BB keeping him reigned in, but he pretty much comes into his own in TDK. That's what classical hero's journey stories are all about, especially ones about orphans. There are many mentors and guides along the way.

I love Keaton's Bruce Wayne/Batman and I love the Burton movies. The difference there is that Bruce is pretty much a fully formed character from the start. I don't think he really learns a thing in 2 films or has much of an arc to speak of. That's totally fine, but the character can be approached differently and more human too, and Nolan's movies proved it.

[The Guard]

Nolan and Bale utterly fail to convey that Bruce Wayne is fractured at his core... their Batman is wholly false because he is a mere construct, a 'symbol' Bruce creates to hide behind because he can't find a way to confront Gotham's problems as Bruce Wayne.

This is kind of how I feel. Nolan's Bruce Wayne never really "lost himself to the monster", as Alfred suggested in BATMAN BEGINS. Nolan spent so much time focusing on physical ailments, and not nearly enough time really exploring the mental cost of being Batman. And I'm not talking about losing friends to madmen. Nor am I talking about being hated, or being what Gotham needs him to be. These are compelling concepts, but these concepts are also inherent to being Batman, and also inherent to many vigilantes. I don't think Nolan really went that deep into the concept of Bruce Wayne becoming and dealing with becoming Batman, to be honest. He focused on the concept of Bruce not wanting to be Batman anymore, but they're not the same thing.