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#326 |
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That's a gorgeous figure! I hate the lucky bastard who gets to own it.
@ The Guard - Exactly. To expound on construct idea, even the mooks point this out to him in the Nolan Trilogy for gods sakes. When the bad guys realize that he's just a weirdo in a costume playing at being bad, they stop fearing him. They see through the construct and Batman loses his power over them. Instead they fear real psychos like Joker and Bane, because they know those guys don't pull any punches. The moral of Nolan's story seems to be don't **** with crazy people unless you're the real Batman. It's just a bad idea. In contrast, Burton's Batman has a psychotic edge that most mooks recognize and respect on a primal level. The only bad guys who are willing to openly challenge Burton's Bat are the ones who are mentally unstable, brilliant, or just plain stupid. And they don't do so lightly because they know he is like them... only he defends the establishment rather than wants its destruction. The Timm/Dini Batman also has that crazy edge to a lesser extent. |
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#327 | |
SUPERHERO
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#328 | ||
Fountainhead of culture.
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In the beginning of B89, Bruce is an eternally depressed and reclusive figure who has absolutely no interest in anything in life outside of avenging his parents' killer. Once he's able to do this at the end of B89, his meaning for life itself is gone, so he becomes even more lost and rudderless; becoming an almost psychotic killer - thinking nothing of killing goons and thugs in BR. But, during this, he meets Selina, and she acts as his own dark mirror. Through her he can see how futile it is to loose yourself in anger and pain and revenge. And that's exactly what he falls in love with her, and what's to help her so badly, because he wants them to save each other. Even though that doesn't happen for Selina, by the end of BR, Bruce realizes that he needs to overcome that pain rather than getting lost in it. Which is made evident in BF, where he immediately shows a much more natural and sane interest in life outside of Batman (actual interaction with Wayne Enterprises, taking in Dick). And that entire character arc was done with far more skill, nuance, and realism than anything in Nolan's films. Real people don't act like Nolan's characters. They don't have endless exposition that precisely explains their feelings and motivations. Instead, all of that would be done inwardly, largely hidden from the real life events swirling around him. And that's exactly what Burton and Keaton were always able to achieve.
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#329 | ||
Caballero de la Luz
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#330 | |
Lobsterized
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Is he going to be any less obsessed with killing goons and thugs in the future as a result of his flirtation with hope with Selina? I have no idea. I can't use Batman Forever to come to any conclusions because that movie was a deliberate attempt by the studio to lighten up the franchise. Again though, I loved the subtle, inward approach of Burton. I have a similar reading of BR as you do, I just feel a lot of it is ultimately ambiguous because that's how Burton viewed Batman as a character. I just also loved the more pronounced arc we got with Nolan. It's okay to enjoy both. Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 11-28-2012 at 12:06 PM. |
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#331 |
Fountainhead of culture.
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Nah, you didn't necessarily need a third movie.
"Good will toward men...and women." Was actually a fittingly subtle end to Burton's statement on Bruce Wayne; pretty much informing the audience that Bruce now had a different outlook on life and humanity...in effect, stating he was now going to be that heroic figure as opposed the anti-hero we were given in the first two movies.
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#332 | |
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And besides, I wouldn't necessarily call Bale's Batman all that heroic. Don't get me wrong, he was always there to save people when needed, but he had scads of narcissism too.
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#333 | |
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I wish we had some idea of what Burton was planning to do with Bruce's character in his third film. Has Burton ever talked about it?
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#334 | |
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I think it was talked that the villian was going to be the Riddler, and Robin Williams was gonna be cast as him. Let me see if I can find the source.
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#335 | |
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I remember the villain rumors, I just don't remember if anything was said about where Bruce's character arc would go.
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#336 | |
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Do you even know how Bruce is characterized in the comics currently? He's an utter prick. Obsessive, egotistical, and downright abusive to the people around him half the time. He makes Keaton's Batman look tame. Preferably, my favorite characterization of Bruce is probably the extremely well-adjusted and strangely cheerful Batman of the mid-to-late 70s, who actually bares no resemblance to either Keaton or Bale.
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#337 | |
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My favorite characterization of Bruce is actually Jeph Loeb's from Hush. He characterized him as a guy who genuinely cared for the people around him while not having him mope around all the time. |
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#338 | |
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I agree with CConn on the arc of the character. |
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#339 | |
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#340 | |
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#341 | |
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#342 | |
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#343 | |
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I never ever got the sense Keaton's Batman was a fearsome presence in Gotham in Burton's movies. I saw more fear from the criminal underworld of Batman's presence in Begins alone, than I did in both of Burton's movies combined. I haven't even mentioned the scenes in TDK where you see criminals too afraid to do anything at the sight of the batsignal, bringing attack dogs with them to the drug meets, and the mob meeting up in day time to avoid Batman.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 11-28-2012 at 07:28 PM. |
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#344 | |
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That seems like an over-simplification too. There are a wide variety of interpretations of the character in the comics.
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#345 | |
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So, like duh, yes all the sane mooks are terrified of him. Probably even more so since he put an end to Jack Napier and his gang. The RTCG are freaks... psychopaths emboldened by the new Lord of the Underworld. And lets be very clear here: just because Penguin thinks he's big enough to take down the Bat doesn't mean it is so. Batman retaliates after the Penguin's initial salvo, driving him back to the sewers. Penguin, like Joker before him, goes berserk and tries first kill the children, then tries to level the heart of Gotham City. Batman foils him both times. And when the RTCG finally realize Penguin is in over his head they abandon him in face of the oncoming Shadow of Bat. Batman defeats the Penguin, smashes the RTCG, and all is well again with the Bat-signal in the sky. Burton's Bat gets the job done. Catwoman is crazy and doesn't fear anything... least of all a man. Like I said, only crazy people and their dumb minions **** with Burton's Bat. Anyone who is dumb enough to challenge him gets their ass handed to them in short order. The wiser mooks scurry into the shadows when they hear the Batmobile coming. And that is the whole point of the Batman persona, not to be some hollow 'symbol' for the masses. Furthermore, Batman doesn't target the mob first in the Burton movies. He starts small and works his way up to build the legend. But when he hears the police are closing in on the mob's number two guy, he decides to be on site in case he needs to intervene directly in the capture, which he does when Napier tries to kill Gordon. He backs off during a mexican stand-off. But Napier doesn't take the hint or listen to a reasonable Bob -- he kills Eckhardt in full view of the Commissioner of Police. Batman reappears to remind Napier that he is still watching, but Jack doesn't take that hint either and tries to kill Batman. The rest is history. After his resurrection, Joker takes over the underworld and kills any rivals foolish enough to challenge him. So the mob is a non-issue in the Burton films because Joker took care of them early on. Did you even watch Batman 89? Those are basic story differences obvious to anyone who watches the films. I'm talking about the impression Batman makes in Burton's films versus the Nolan Trilogy. Burton Batman gets the job done and his stature increases every time he does, whereas Nolan Batman has the stature of squashed hedgehog. As soon as the Joker appears, the criminals in Nolan's movies stop fearing Batman. His mystique and fear factor evaporates because he is only a construct created by Bruce Wayne to hide behind. The construct serves it's purpose and becomes a statue at the end of the trilogy, with Bruce Wayne going off somewhere to live happily ever after. Now you may think that's great and all, but that's not the core of Batman. In fact, Nolan's movies don't have Batman in them at all. Just a guy called Bruce Wayne who dresses like a bat. A small distinction that makes all the difference in the world... |
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#346 | |||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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That's it. One scared punk. Yeah, Batman's appearance and scaring the life out of them is great, but it begins and ends there. The so called legend of Batman in the Gotham underworld goes no further than this scene. His mythical status as a Bat creature is erased in an hour by the Joker's men knocking him out and seeing he's just a man in a costume wearing body armor. Quote:
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So I don't know what point you're trying to make with this. Quote:
It seems like you're going off on unrelated tangents here. Quote:
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Does anything you've said there change the fact that the only criminals you see show any fear of Batman's presence in Gotham in Burton's Batman movies is those two muggers at the beginning of the movie? No. Quote:
Batman 1989; He goes from a mythical creature, to a guy in a suit, to the hero of Gotham Batman Returns; He goes from hero to wanted murderer of the local Christmas tree lighter (which is never rectified) Second, the criminals in Gotham do NOT stop fearing Batman in TDK. It's just that they fear the Joker even more than him, which is as it should be since the Joker is undeniably a worse creature than Batman is. Quote:
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You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but I can identify more Batman in one of Nolan's movies alone, than I can in both of Burton's movies combined. That's coming from someone who enjoys Burton's movies. http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/159...etations.jhtml
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 11-30-2012 at 10:48 AM. |
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#347 | |
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I agree with The Joker. Aside from Knox's throwaway line and 89's opening scene, there's no real sense that anyone is all that afraid of Batman.
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#348 |
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Joker's just mad he died in Batman '89.
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#349 | ||
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#350 | ||
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