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Old 11-26-2012, 07:59 PM   #376
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Well, anywho... it was worth a shot guys. Thanks for the discussion. Gots to go get some work done...

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Old 11-26-2012, 08:04 PM   #377
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I can take the 8 year absence, but there are some hints out there that Batman may have existed after Dark Knight until the Dent Act was made official or at least more than a year or two in total.

I guess i agree with The Joker on the facts he presents, but at the same time..there are some great points made by ThePhantasm and Anno Domini...

There's some **** that makes you raise an eyebrow, like that line from Ras to Bruce in that hallucination, to Alfred telling Bruce in the batcave "You haven't been down here in a long time", to Blake calling it the "last confirmed sighting of the Batman", to The Dark Knight Manual (canon or not) saying that there was a 3 year gap between BB & TDK. When we are led to believe there has been about a year only...between the two movies.

We know Bruce Wayne has been a recluse for 3 years leading up to The Dark Knight Rises. And the script says it was 5 years of Bruce dealing with the Energy project before abandoning it. But the number five is not confirmed in the film. There's a vague aspect to it all, including when Batman hung up his cape/cowl. It's common sense that the Dent Act would take a while to get going right? And the emphasis on the line "last confirmed sighting" is suspicious. There could be loads of unconfirmed sightings of the Batman that the police never wrote down...a citizen here, or a criminal there. It truly doesn't matter what the criminal says because it's unconfirmed if it's by word of mouth from a non-trustworthy criminal. As ThePhantasm says (i think it was you anyway).

"I saw him i swear! It was the Bat who left me in this alley!".... "Yeaaah yeaah more fairytales, the Batmans been missing for almost a year now. That psychopath aint gonna show his face around these parts again. Get in the car scumbag". Conjecture yes, but i can see something like this going down between a cop and some thug.


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Old 11-26-2012, 08:06 PM   #378
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I wasn't a fan of the fact that Batman only went against the villains seen in the movie. Although I guess thats all that counts anyways. It would have been fun to imagine he battled other rogues in between the films, but then again, it would only be in our imaginations anyways. I took it that Batman went into retirement right after Dent's death. I figured if he was going around solving crimes, it would kinda go against the sacrifice he was making. I guess the only time Batman could have been out and about with other rogues would have been between BB and TDK as "Crane and the other inmates from Arkham" were free. Guess there was no love for another Zasz cameo along the way

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Old 11-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #379
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I can't help but feel baffled at times and think that Nolan misinterpreted the ending to his own film (TDK). Or that Gordon was wrong. "Because he can take it..." apparently not.
You bring up a good point. One we might not ever learn. What was the original intention for the third movie (assuming that there was another plan had Heath not died).
Was Batman to be on the lamb, still "taking it" battling both cops and crooks? Or, was he supposed to have retired and was to "take it" in the form of his symbol taking a beating in the press for being a cop killer. Wish one of the interviewers on the many press junkets that Nolan had done, would have simply just asked him if there was any intention for Heath to return.

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Old 11-26-2012, 08:29 PM   #380
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I still find it kind of funny that the meaning of "He can take it..." was reduced to Bruce being forced to not be Batman thanks to the "Dent Act", lol. It makes sense that way too, but clearly that is not how 99% of us interpreted the ending to TDK.

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Old 11-26-2012, 09:38 PM   #381
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I still find it kind of funny that the meaning of "He can take it..." was reduced to Bruce being forced to not be Batman thanks to the "Dent Act", lol. It makes sense that way too, but clearly that is not how 99% of us interpreted the ending to TDK.
Exactly, which is why I think it takes a little power out of that epic final scene in TDK.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:06 PM   #382
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I think Nolan changed history a bit to give Batman a longer career than it appeared he had from Batman Begins to the end of The Dark Knight.


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Originally Posted by shauner111 View Post
I can take the 8 year absence, but there are some hints out there that Batman may have existed after Dark Knight until the Dent Act was made official or at least more than a year or two in total.

I guess i agree with The Joker on the facts he presents, but at the same time..there are some great points made by ThePhantasm and Anno Domini...

There's some **** that makes you raise an eyebrow, like that line from Ras to Bruce in that hallucination, to Alfred telling Bruce in the batcave "You haven't been down here in a long time", to Blake calling it the "last confirmed sighting of the Batman", to The Dark Knight Manual (canon or not) saying that there was a 3 year gap between BB & TDK. When we are led to believe there has been about a year only...between the two movies.

We know Bruce Wayne has been a recluse for 3 years leading up to The Dark Knight Rises. And the script says it was 5 years of Bruce dealing with the Energy project before abandoning it. But the number five is not confirmed in the film. There's a vague aspect to it all, including when Batman hung up his cape/cowl. It's common sense that the Dent Act would take a while to get going right? And the emphasis on the line "last confirmed sighting" is suspicious. There could be loads of unconfirmed sightings of the Batman that the police never wrote down...a citizen here, or a criminal there. It truly doesn't matter what the criminal says because it's unconfirmed if it's by word of mouth from a non-trustworthy criminal. As ThePhantasm says (i think it was you anyway).

"I saw him i swear! It was the Bat who left me in this alley!".... "Yeaaah yeaah more fairytales, the Batmans been missing for almost a year now. That psychopath aint gonna show his face around these parts again. Get in the car scumbag". Conjecture yes, but i can see something like this going down between a cop and some thug.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:25 PM   #383
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Yah, I'm still leaning on Bruce not having fully retired at least until the Dent Act became law. It just doesn't add up to Bruce telling Gordon Batman wasn't needed and that they won when they didn't REALLY win until the Dent Act probably became law. Other than that, did they really win with Joker being taken down and Maroni dead? That's as much of an accomplishment as Batman Begins with Batman having stopped Ra's al Ghul and gotten Carmine Falcone off the streets. They didn't truly win until the Dent Act sent away the rest of the mob, imo.

Quote:
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I wasn't a fan of the fact that Batman only went against the villains seen in the movie. Although I guess thats all that counts anyways. It would have been fun to imagine he battled other rogues in between the films, but then again, it would only be in our imaginations anyways. I took it that Batman went into retirement right after Dent's death. I figured if he was going around solving crimes, it would kinda go against the sacrifice he was making. I guess the only time Batman could have been out and about with other rogues would have been between BB and TDK as "Crane and the other inmates from Arkham" were free. Guess there was no love for another Zasz cameo along the way
This can be said for any CBM. Fans would love to know a hero took down other villains not seen or heard of in said film, but as you said, it would be all imagination, lol, unless we ever got comics as prequels to said films, or how we were given the unofficial sequel to Batman Begins/prequel to The Dark Knight with Gotham Knight.


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Old 11-26-2012, 11:26 PM   #384
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
I wasn't a fan of the fact that Batman only went against the villains seen in the movie. Although I guess thats all that counts anyways. It would have been fun to imagine he battled other rogues in between the films, but then again, it would only be in our imaginations anyways. I took it that Batman went into retirement right after Dent's death. I figured if he was going around solving crimes, it would kinda go against the sacrifice he was making.
Snap. Pretty obvious he threw in the cape and cowl after Dent bought the farm. Now we have Nolan's word for it, too. Not that it was really needed anyways when ya watch Rises it's obvious to moi.

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Old 11-26-2012, 11:29 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by JackWhite View Post
I still find it kind of funny that the meaning of "He can take it..." was reduced to Bruce being forced to not be Batman thanks to the "Dent Act", lol. It makes sense that way too, but clearly that is not how 99% of us interpreted the ending to TDK.
Or he did take it and as I said, retired when Batman was no longer needed while Bruce waited until Batman was needed.

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Old 11-28-2012, 03:29 PM   #386
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Gordon was wrong.

Anyway, I'd kill Batman in a dark, gritty and realistic way: iatrogenic infection.

Bruce is forced to undergo surgery to repair the damage to his back. The surgeon-our morphine-addicted doctor-performs the operation. Unfortunately his tools aren't exactly clean. Bruce realizes that he'll have a limited time frame to stop Bane before the infection kills him. So after he escapes the Pit in pain from the infection and he mixes up some of the compound Bane uses to keep his pain at bay.

Batman returns to Gotham. Same stuff happens. The bomb is still there to keep the feds/army at bay. As he's fighting Bane the infection begins to hit him hard. He beats Bane, Talia dies and Batman flies the bomb out of the city. Its not clear if Batman dies in the blast or if he dies from the infection before the bomb goes off.

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Old 11-28-2012, 07:35 PM   #387
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I thought it was fairly obvious that Blake's line was intended to show that Batman gave up the cape and cowl after the night Dent died. Nolan was trying to be subtle and not have Batman come right out and say "I last wore the cowl the night Dent died". Any "ambiguity" to that is pretty pointless, because the movie never shows or hints otherwise.

The whole point of the movie opening on Harvey Dent Day was that this was also the anniversary of Batman's last appearance. Full circle and all that.

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Old 11-29-2012, 05:57 PM   #388
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Changes/additions...

I would've liked more from prison Selina - footage of her walking out like this still:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

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Old 11-29-2012, 06:13 PM   #389
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Holy crap. First time seeing that still. That is BAD...ASS.

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Old 11-29-2012, 08:03 PM   #390
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I thought it was fairly obvious that Blake's line was intended to show that Batman gave up the cape and cowl after the night Dent died. Nolan was trying to be subtle and not have Batman come right out and say "I last wore the cowl the night Dent died". Any "ambiguity" to that is pretty pointless, because the movie never shows or hints otherwise.

The whole point of the movie opening on Harvey Dent Day was that this was also the anniversary of Batman's last appearance. Full circle and all that.
Yup. Really straight forward.

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Old 11-29-2012, 11:30 PM   #391
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Changes I would make:

BB: Remove some of the cringe worthy shots of extras and their terrible acting.

TDK:
- Same as above, and also replace Maggie Gyllenhaal with Katie Holmes. Maggie is definitely the better actress but I HATE it when roles are recast. It ruins the consistency, and it's one of the things that prevents this trilogy from being completely perfect.

- Also the ferry scene - I would have had the civilians blow up the ferry full of prisoners. That would have been a major kick in the balls to both Bats and Gordon, and it would have taken this film to a whole new level. The scene as it is is a total cop out, and I don't believe such an ending would have ever happened in real life, especially in today's world.

TDKR:

- John Blake would not be John Blake but rather Detective Richard Grayson, plain and simple. He would be the one to discover the truth about Harvey Dent.

- Bring in Detective Harvey Bullock.

- Include scenes with the citizens of Gotham and their reactions to events (definitely using better actors than the horrid extras of the first two). Have the people of Gotham rally around Batman's symbol after the truth about Harvey Dent is revealed and Bane takes over. It would have made Batman's return even more epic.

- More cop scenes in police headquarters, gathering evidence.

- Call the prison the Lazarus Pit - have more scenes exploring Bruce's psychology, as he revisists and reevaluates the very reasons why he became Batman in the first place. Include a scene where he stares into the water right at the bottom of the Pit, and instead of seeing a reflection of himself, he sees the face of Ras al Ghul. Bruce is beginning to realize what he is truly becoming.

- Ending: Bomb goes off, half of Gotham is completely destroyed. Bruce comes full circle and accepts that for the most part, Ra's was right. He takes over as the leader of the League of Shadows, but moves the organization in a reformed direction. Batman remains as a symbol, but it is absorbed into the LOS's global network. Wayne Enterprises is now mostly a front organization for the LOS, with Bruce fully in control. He takes the responsibility of rebuilding Gotham, not as Batman, but as a new, reborn Bruce, who operates his crime fighting network behind the scenes. It would sorta be like a darker version of Batman Inc - Bruce uses the symbol of Batman to train others who believe in his mission and bring them into the organization, and the first person that Bruce embraces is none other than Dick Grayson. Selina would remain as Bruce's love interest. End of movie.


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Old 11-30-2012, 04:46 AM   #392
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Quote:
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Changes/additions...

I would've liked more from prison Selina - footage of her walking out like this still:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Oh wow, I'm shocked they didn't include this shot during the speech montage. Surely it wouldn't have been too much trouble to splice in three seconds of her walking away into it.

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Old 11-30-2012, 06:09 AM   #393
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BB
* Scarecrow, while I loved him, wasn't used to his full potential IMO even though he served the story very well. I'd have wanted to see more nightmarish hallucinations. Also, he deserved a much better final scene.

Other than that, I wouldn't change a thing in BB.

TDK
* I would have prevented the casting of Maggie to ever happen. I don't want her in any movie at all because I just hate her! She makes me want to puke with her obvious and annoying wannabe-tough attitude. She comes off as that annoying bookworm girl at school who thinks she's smarter and better than everyone else. I was HAPPY when she died. A miscast of Dunst caliber.

* I'd have Joker be more crazy with the dark humour like Mark Hamill's version.

* I'd have tried to show more of the gothic parts of the city.

TDKR
* I expected the film to start right where TDK ended. I just didn't like that Batman was active for like 1-2 years and then retired before he returned 8 years later.

* I would have Bane be more his own man, where everything is the result of his own schemes only, not in a partnership.

* I would have wanted a much better plot device than that generic bomb.

* The city looked waaay too much like any other big city. I would have showed the gothic parts much more than what we got. Didn't feel much like a "Batman" world.

* Bruce not letting over the legacy like that. I'd have preferred an ending where he still is Batman for a long time afterwards.

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:31 AM   #394
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Oh wow, I'm shocked they didn't include this shot during the speech montage. Surely it wouldn't have been too much trouble to splice in three seconds of her walking away into it.
It wouldn't have been too much trouble, but it wouldn't have made sense with the scenes that actually were aligned with Bane's dialogue during that montage. Imo, a shot of Selina walking out wouldn't fit.

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BB
* Scarecrow, while I loved him, wasn't used to his full potential IMO even though he served the story very well. I'd have wanted to see more nightmarish hallucinations. Also, he deserved a much better final scene.

Other than that, I wouldn't change a thing in BB.

TDK
* I'd have tried to show more of the gothic parts of the city.

TDKR
* The city looked waaay too much like any other big city. I would have showed the gothic parts much more than what we got. Didn't feel much like a "Batman" world.
Did you feel that Batman Begins had a more gothic setting than TDK/TDKR?

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:48 AM   #395
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Did you feel that Batman Begins had a more gothic setting than TDK/TDKR?
I know I did. I actually think TDK is the one that veered the furthest into looking more like a pristine city. Hell, TDK looked like a much cleaner version of Chicago.

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Old 11-30-2012, 11:53 AM   #396
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Or he did take it and as I said, retired when Batman was no longer needed while Bruce waited until Batman was needed.
Yeah, that's what "take it" ultimately meant. I actually find that very poignant, but of course I preferred the whole Batman continuing, despite the police trying to take him down without hesitation because they think he killed Dent.

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Old 11-30-2012, 01:00 PM   #397
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Did you feel that Batman Begins had a more gothic setting than TDK/TDKR?
Yup. Especially compared to TDKR.

EDIT: Maybe gothic is the wrong word there, but darker and showing more of the slums.

Overall I'd want a more gothic city in the next trilogy, aching more to BTAS and the Arkham games.

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Old 11-30-2012, 02:29 PM   #398
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Ehhh the only diff was the Narrows.

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Old 11-30-2012, 03:19 PM   #399
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That's probably what Oscorp means. The slummed-up Narrows showed a darker aspect of Gotham.

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Old 12-01-2012, 06:05 AM   #400
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It wouldn't have been too much trouble, but it wouldn't have made sense with the scenes that actually were aligned with Bane's dialogue during that montage. Imo, a shot of Selina walking out wouldn't fit.
I disagree, Nolan could have quite easily made it work.
Just one example, Bane says "This city...", cut to Selina walking away from the ravaging mob of prisoners, cut to Bane saying "it will endure", cut to the bomb in the truck.

It would have shown a contrast between Selina and the rest of the prisoners and would have looked damn cool to beat. It's not a big beef by any means, but I think he should have included it somewhere.

What is a slightly bigger beef is that all we see of prison Selina is about 20 seconds, and only when she's coming in and when she's about to be freed. It almost seems like Nolan just wanted to get rid of her for a while and stuck her in a cell. As someone else mentioned in some other thread, once Bruce got broken the Gotham segment of the movie should have focused on Selina. But oh well.

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