A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

[The Eradicator]

All the way back in the days and months following the release of Batman Begins, there was talk about how Goyer had a rough outline for a trilogy, where the Joker would be the villain of film 2 and Two Face the villain of film 3, with the Joker still playing some sort of role. After TDK, those plans obviously changed, but there were always rumors about how the death of Heath Ledger had a big impact on Nolan's initial plans for a third film. I remember hearing that a sort of Hannibal Lector type role was being eyed for the Joker. There's no way to tell just how true or false those rumors were, but after watching a few TDKR clips on YouTube, I thought of something.

Could have Nolan's idea of a TDKR with the Joker have been something like this?:

Bane is still the main villain of the film, but instead of locking up Bruce in an underground prison in the middle of nowhere, Bane puts him in a rebuilt Arkham Asylum, which has an underground component. Bruce is thrown into a psychiatric jungle after being beaten, broken, and battered, and his cellmate is none other than the Joker himself. Bane uses Arkham rather than the Pit as his holding cell for all the people he either wants tortured or eliminated. In some weird, twisted way, Bruce would have to work with the Joker in order to escape.

Now, with regard to the rest of the plot, there's no way to tell how it all would have worked out, but I can't help but think that a lot of the prison scenes in TDKR were leftovers from older ideas about what TDKR would be.

It certainly puts a whole new meaning to the ending of TDK, where the Joker says that he and Bats should share a prison cell (and interestingly enough, this only occured to me AFTER I came up with the idea above).

[Anno_Domini]

When did Arkham Asylum have to be rebuilt?

I think the Pit idea was a wonderful thing, so I wouldn't change anything there, but I could see Joker playing some role. I don't really see Joker having anything to do with Bane's plans as they don't really fit with Joker's ideology, especially wanting to kill Batman.

Plus, I don't know anything about that Hannibal Lector rumor besides that was, I believe, Whedon's idea. But it would've been this newly-created villain that Batman talks to such in a Lector-like manner.

[Oscorp]

I'd have loved a Joker role in TDKR. As Anno said, he wouldn't be connected to Bane in any way because that wouldn't make any sense. But that's also what would be so interesting to have them both in the same film!

[Victarion]

You might be on to something, Eradicator. Either Chris or Emma said Christ and Goyer had finished the story for TDKR in the late Fall of 2008.

Edit: It makes sense to rebuild AA. They had to do something with the escapees once they were caught. Plus if the TDKR novel is considered canon, the asylum has been rebuilt.

[Ant-LOX]

The pit in TDKR always reminds me of the basement area in AA from Batman Begins. The part of AA where Scarecrow's goons are polluting the water supply.

[Just_Human]

I'm just glad there was no Joker in TDKR

[Bim]

Originally Posted by The Eradicator

Bruce is thrown into a psychiatric jungle after being beaten, broken, and battered, and his cellmate is none other than the Joker himself. Bane uses Arkham rather than the Pit as his holding cell for all the people he either wants tortured or eliminated.

I like this idea. It would have been awesome to see Heath and Christian doing something like this for sure. My favorite scene is still the interrogation scene

[The Joker]

It would have been more exciting to see Bane release the Arkham inmates instead of Blackgate ones, seeing as though Joker and Crane would have been housed in there. It would bring back that full circle thing because Ra's did the same thing.

I really like that Arkham pit idea. It sounds so creepy.

[Just_Human]

I prefer the Blackgate breakout to Arkham

BG is more symbolic because of the weight of Harvey Dent's fake legacy

[The Joker]

They could have had crazies incarcerated in Arkham under the Dent Act, too. Releasing the Joker, who was the cause of the Dent fake legacy, would have had more weight and impact than some faceless Blackgate inmates.

[Just_Human]

Originally Posted by The Joker

They could have had crazies incarcerated in Arkham under the Dent Act, too. Releasing the Joker, who was the cause of the Dent fake legacy, would have had more weight and impact than some faceless Blackgate inmates.

but Dent arrested mostly sane criminals (so off to Blackgate)

And they couldnt have been transferred to Arkham since the only one who could attest whether they were insane or not was arrested by Batman (Crane)

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Just_Human

but Dent arrested mostly sane criminals (so off to Blackgate)

In case you didn't know the Dent Act kept putting away criminals even after Dent was dead. Second, you can be involved in organized crime and get sent to Arkham. Joker was, he took over the Gotham underworld.

And they couldnt have been transferred to Arkham since the only one who could attest whether they were insane or not was arrested by Batman (Crane)

Crane is the only doctor in Gotham who can diagnose who's insane? LOL.

[Oscorp]

I also heard a theory that the reveal speech was at first intended to be by Joker. That would've been so awesome

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Oscorp

I also heard a theory that the reveal speech was at first intended to be by Joker. That would've been so awesome

It would have made more poetic, too, since Harvey was Joker's ace in the hole, and revealing the truth about Dent's downfall would have been Joker's moment of glory more than anyone else's.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

You might be on to something, Eradicator. Either Chris or Emma said Christ and Goyer had finished the story for TDKR in the late Fall of 2008.

Edit: It makes sense to rebuild AA. They had to do something with the escapees once they were caught. Plus if the TDKR novel is considered canon, the asylum has been rebuilt.

I still don't see how it would've needed to be rebuilt. Only a wall was blown off during the events of BB and doesn't really call for a rebuilt.

Originally Posted by Just_Human

I'm just glad there was no Joker in TDKR

Imo, I sorta feel this way. Ledger's Joker, while quite amazing, was really the only thing is remembered from TDK and not the film itself and I feel would have been the same thing in TDKR even in a minor villain role.

Originally Posted by The Joker

It would have been more exciting to see Bane release the Arkham inmates instead of Blackgate ones, seeing as though Joker and Crane would have been housed in there. It would bring back that full circle thing because Ra's did the same thing.

I actually didn't like Crane showing up in TDKR as well because he would have been in Arkham Asylum and since there was nothing mentioned about TDKR, Crane's appearances just seemed off. Neither Joker or Crane should be involved in TDKR because it was about the return of the LoS and the Blackgate prisoners were supposed to "take over" the city. I really enjoyed the idea of this symbolic idea of what the Dent Act created was destroyed and that's why I like how it was Blackgate that was taken out and why the 1,000 prisoners were able to escape that were sent there from the Dent Act.

[Wesley Dodds]

Nyaaah. That Lector-esque, "hero works with imprisoned villain" thing is so cliched.

If I had to use The Joker in TDKR, it would be a small cameo. I'd give him Crane's role. That would actually be a nice nod to the animated series' Trial episode:

"Death? Fine, death."



"By exile."

[Oscorp]

I liked Crane's appearance in TDKR but I'd have hoped for him to wear his mask. That, coupled with his Scarecrow-ish clothes, would've been awesome.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by The Eradicator

All the way back in the days and months following the release of Batman Begins, there was talk about how Goyer had a rough outline for a trilogy, where the Joker would be the villain of film 2 and Two Face the villain of film 3, with the Joker still playing some sort of role. After TDK, those plans obviously changed, but there were always rumors about how the death of Heath Ledger had a big impact on Nolan's initial plans for a third film. I remember hearing that a sort of Hannibal Lector type role was being eyed for the Joker. There's no way to tell just how true or false those rumors were, but after watching a few TDKR clips on YouTube, I thought of something.

The problem is that the outline Goyer talked about is from 2005, just in time for the release of Batman Begins. That concepts became the storyline of The Dark Knight. The first developments for Rises came shortly after The Dark Knight was released.

But speculation is fun.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Oscorp

I liked Crane's appearance in TDKR but I'd have hoped for him to wear his mask. That, coupled with his Scarecrow-ish clothes, would've been awesome.

I liked the nod to his costume with the straws coming out of his coat, though.

[Just_Human]

Originally Posted by The Joker

In case you didn't know the Dent Act kept putting away criminals even after Dent was dead. Second, you can be involved in organized crime and get sent to Arkham. Joker was, he took over the Gotham underworld.



Crane is the only doctor in Gotham who can diagnose who's insane? LOL.

No, it's just that Crane has 0 ethic; a non-freak psychiatrist wouldnt have recommended the transfer of sane criminals


And who said Joker was put into Arkham?
The man is a terrorist,and he knew what he was doing

[ChocheTheHero]

[Wesley Dodds]

Originally Posted by ChocheTheHero

As totally random as that would have been, if they'd done that the cheers from fanboys on opening night would have been heard from space.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Just_Human

No, it's just that Crane has 0 ethic; a non-freak psychiatrist wouldnt have recommended the transfer of sane criminals


And who said Joker was put into Arkham?
The man is a terrorist,and he knew what he was doing

He was still a psychopathic mass murdering schizophrenic clown. Batman said it too "You'll be in a padded cell, forever." Also it's hinted in the novelization.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Sorta creepy.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Wesley Dodds

As totally random as that would have been, if they'd done that the cheers from fanboys on opening night would have been heard from space.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I actually didn't like Crane showing up in TDKR as well because he would have been in Arkham Asylum and since there was nothing mentioned about TDKR, Crane's appearances just seemed off.

I think I'm going to keel over with shock. Anno just criticized something about TDKR.

Neither Joker or Crane should be involved in TDKR because it was about the return of the LoS

Then you should have had no problem with Crane helping them should you since he was heavily involved with them in Batman Begins.

and the Blackgate prisoners were supposed to "take over" the city.

No they weren't. They were set free as part of the liberation from the corrupt. As we've discussed time and again Bane's plan never ever hindered on this because he discovered the Dent lie by accident. So claiming they were supposed to take over the city is a falsity. As the army guy said to Bane's man on the bridge, he had not got the man power to stop 30 million people from leaving if they wanted to. It was the army that kept them in thanks to the bomb threat.

Ledger's Joker, while quite amazing, was really the only thing is remembered from TDK and not the film itself and I feel would have been the same thing in TDKR even in a minor villain role.

You're either paying Ledger the biggest compliment, or giving Nolan and the rest of TDK's and TDKR's cast the biggest insult.

No question that The Joker is the most memorable character from it, but he is not the ONLY memorable character in it. Take a look at all the awards and accolades TDK got; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Dark_Knight

177 awards and nominations, and only 38 of them are specific to Ledger. TDK is as acclaimed as it is because it's a great movie. Simple as that

Originally Posted by Just_Human

No, it's just that Crane has 0 ethic; a non-freak psychiatrist wouldnt have recommended the transfer of sane criminals

The Joker wasn't sane. Crazy people can still work in organized crime. Crane did. Zasaz did. Joker did.

And who said Joker was put into Arkham?
The man is a terrorist,and he knew what he was doing

"You're crazy"

"One day Batman will answer for the laws he's broken. But to us, not to this mad man"

"I let that murdering psychopath blow him half to hell"

"You'll be in a padded cell forever"

Did you miss all of these lines that spell out Joker is crazy? Being psychotic doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing. Hannibal Lecter knew what he was doing but he still ended up in an asylum because he liked to eat people.

The Joker likes to play deadly psychological mind games with thousands of people's lives he murders people then paints their faces with clown make up and cuts smiles onto their faces, he burns piles of money like it's worthless, he dyes his hair green, puts clown make up on, wears a purple suit, and has a cut smile which may or may not be self inflicted, he tells different stories about how he got them, he broadcasts torture videos of a Copycat Batman etc.

Does these sound like the actions of a sane man?