The Anti-Prequel Discussion Thread

[Doomed_hero]

i didnt mind anakin's path to the dark side. His inability to save his mother left a scar on his soul and when it came to Padme suffering the same fate he would have done anything in order to stop that from happening. His problem with the jedis came less from not being promoted and more from them asking him to be a spy and dishonest with a man he felt to be a friend and mentor. In that moment he saw he had to follow the rules of the jedi order and was suppose to follow there code while in his mind he felt they had asked him to do something that went against the code. It was all these things plus his own ambition that caused him to let the dark side in and as Yoda said in the Holy original movies," once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." the darkness consumed him in the and it was all in his head ok cause he was doing it for Padme. But when she died he didnt care anymore and he completely died as anakin and became Vader. It was not till he saw a chance to finally save someone from death in the form of his son that he saw he went down the dark path and lived again.

[LegendAssemble]

Originally Posted by Doomed_hero

i didnt mind anakin's path to the dark side. His inability to save his mother left a scar on his soul and when it came to Padme suffering the same fate he would have done anything in order to stop that from happening. His problem with the jedis came less from not being promoted and more from them asking him to be a spy and dishonest with a man he felt to be a friend and mentor. In that moment he saw he had to follow the rules of the jedi order and was suppose to follow there code while in his mind he felt they had asked him to do something that went against the code. It was all these things plus his own ambition that caused him to let the dark side in and as Yoda said in the Holy original movies," once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." the darkness consumed him in the and it was all in his head ok cause he was doing it for Padme. But when she died he didnt care anymore and he completely died as anakin and became Vader. It was not till he saw a chance to finally save someone from death in the form of his son that he saw he went down the dark path and lived again.

But thats irrelevant because the whole thing was an enormous contrivance. Why didn't the Jedi go back for his mother before 10 years passed by? Why aren't the Jedi allowed to marry when love is not a bad emotion by any means? Shouldn't all Jedi fall into Anakins problem when they reach puberty and get horny? Not to mention the power is what Yoda referred to when he said that not necessarily your decisions. By that logic Luke loving his friends and turning to the Darkside (even if momentarily) for his sister should have been enough for it to "forever control his destiny". People can defend the prequels all they want and say that it's just "the fanboys who don't like them" but the fact is there is such a thing as a bad movie and all three of the prequels fit into that category.

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

But thats irrelevant because the whole thing was an enormous contrivance.

All movies....all novels....all stories.....are a contrivance.

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

Why didn't the Jedi go back for his mother before 10 years passed by?

Because he was a child, in the care of the most powerful group of beings in the galaxy, who as a major tenant of their religion/science/training/club removed children from their families for intense training.

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

Why aren't the Jedi allowed to marry when love is not a bad emotion by any means?

They aren't saying that "love" is bad....the whole point of their intense training is to make the Jedi think of the entire galaxy, not a select few. When someone creates a true marital/familial bond, they care more for the familial bond than for the good of all beings. Just as children are removed from their families so that they will learn to care for all instead of a few close people...the bonding of a Jedi with a mate is discouraged. Whether you agree with their methods or not....this is the methods they employ.

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

Shouldn't all Jedi fall into Anakins problem when they reach puberty and get horny?

Nope. For one, all other Jedi have had more years of training than Anakin had had. This is the whole reason why the council said he was too old to begin training. Second, different people have different levels of self control. An Earthly analogy are Catholic priests. They are to be celibate. Some can manage it, some can not.

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

Not to mention the power is what Yoda referred to when he said that not necessarily your decisions. By that logic Luke loving his friends and turning to the Darkside (even if momentarily) for his sister should have been enough for it to "forever control his destiny".

No. This is part of the Jedi double speak concerning a Jedi doesn't deal in absolutes. It's part of their semi religious dogma. You don't tell the people you are training (training to be immensely more powerful than 9/10 of the other intelligent beings they will meet) that they can lose control now and then and go hog wild with your powers against others (because after you calm down and think rationally you will be OK again)....you tell them that if they use the dark side they will never come back. It's a standard scare tactic by anyone in power/control/teaching.

Originally Posted by LegendAssemble

People can defend the prequels all they want and say that it's just "the fanboys who don't like them" but the fact is there is such a thing as a bad movie and all three of the prequels fit into that category.

IN.....YOUR.....OPINION.

[LegendAssemble]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

All movies....all novels....all stories.....are a contrivance.

To some degree, but the whole trilogy was really just served the purpose to get Anakin behind that suit. I mean a movie shouldn't be so obvious, the biggest flaw with these films was that Lucas was too proud to allow anyone to help him.

Because he was a child, in the care of the most powerful group of beings in the galaxy, who as a major tenant of their religion/science/training/club removed children from their families for intense training.

And thats good? The Jedi Obi-Wan describes in A New Hope did not sound like they would just be fine letting a huge group of people live under tyranny and enslaved. Not to mention Qui-Gon tried to free her too, so this isn't really an answer either.

They aren't saying that "love" is bad....the whole point of their intense training is to make the Jedi think of the entire galaxy, not a select few. When someone creates a true marital/familial bond, they care more for the familial bond than for the good of all beings. Just as children are removed from their families so that they will learn to care for all instead of a few close people...the bonding of a Jedi with a mate is discouraged. Whether you agree with their methods or not....this is the methods they employ.

I know but thats not really what they say in the movies, just what they say in the books. It's obvious the split with Maria deeply effected Lucas, it put the franchise on hold for 20 years and shorted it to 6 films indefinitely. It seems more too me like Anakin and Padme was some kind of metaphor for him and Maria.

Lucas was a kid that felt trapped by the film system that held his vision back, he got recognized for his great talents and he was given a ticket out, however his work left him busy and with not enough time to have a family. His works which had been in his eyes "butchered" by studios some what traumatized him and he seeked a means to prevent that from happening again, in the form of creating his own production company. He probably also did this to some degree to ensure financial security for his family. Ultimately however he was consumed with all of his work and didn't have any more time for his family and he was not the person in the chair manipulating others visions, and his very work to secure his dream life is actually what pushed it away. So the whole "Jedi can't love thing" in my eyes at least is just a way to explain what Lucas was really trying to convey about people who can't separate work and family. A good idea, that again, would have been better with some outside influence.

Nope. For one, all other Jedi have had more years of training than Anakin had had. This is the whole reason why the council said he was too old to begin training. Second, different people have different levels of self control. An Earthly analogy are Catholic priests. They are to be celibate. Some can manage it, some can not.

Yes, theres a huge difference there. Most priests don't decide to become one until adulthood. When you have a bunch of kids living together that are growing up it doesn't matter what kind of "training" they have, they're immature and I'm familiar with the EU, Obi-Wan and many other Jedi have had problems with their feelings. It's a stupid rule thats pretty much in place so Anakin can't be with Padme. Not to mention this whole system begs the question why Luke was hidden with Owen and Beru in the first place instead of just like being taken and trained by Obi-Wan? Why would he all of a sudden believe in free will?

No. This is part of the Jedi double speak concerning a Jedi doesn't deal in absolutes. It's part of their semi religious dogma. You don't tell the people you are training (training to be immensely more powerful than 9/10 of the other intelligent beings they will meet) that they can lose control now and then and go hog wild with your powers against others (because after you calm down and think rationally you will be OK again)....you tell them that if they use the dark side they will never come back. It's a standard scare tactic by anyone in power/control/teaching.

But when Obi-Wan said "only a sith deals in absolutes" that was an absolute right there. Anyway that supports what I have to say in the first place, to say that Anakin turned to the Darkside and now he's just permanently evil because he did a few bad things just doesn't make sense. In the originals it was clear that the darkside was like a drug and Vader was addicted (even that line from Yoda you brought up supports this, you know once you start you can't stop), maybe if they had illustrated Anakin couldn't control himself then maybe it would have made more sense.

IN.....YOUR.....OPINION.

There is such a thing as a bad movie, accept it or not, it's the way that it is. I have opinions that really good movies are not enjoyable, but I can still recognize they are really good movies. I also enjoy some really bad movies, but I can again recognize they are really bad movies.

[Gianakin_]

I'd say "you are unbelievable", but somehow I knew you were an "opinion-is-fact" guy from your very first posts around here.

[Thundercrack85]

While I loathe these movies, I do think we need to be fair to the actors.

No one could make the dialogue they were given good.

Also, they spent most of their time on an empty set, staring at nothing or a box.

[LegendAssemble]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

I'd say "you are unbelievable", but somehow I knew you were an "opinion-is-fact" guy from your very first posts around here.

Theres a big difference. Theres opinions and theres facts. When movies are made they follow guidelines and rules that make them standout. When stories are written they follow these same rules. These aren't really set in stone but they're pretty basic and the Prequels don't really do anything a good movie should do.

For one thing the majority of the movies are shot in a shot reverse shot, especially the dialogue scenes. The camera angles are pretty generic and lazy, boring, the only really different shots usually are computer generated.

The sets are almost entirely CGI in Episodes II and III and it shows. Back on the topic of the boring dialogue, when the characters are talking it really shows they are on a CGI set. Because most of the time they are either standing still or sitting on a couch or walking extremely slowly because they don't have room to do anything exciting. Sometimes the characters will look to windows but thats about it.

The movies were pretty 1 dimensional and didn't say as much as the originals did. In the original trilogy there were lots of metaphor and a huge amount of symbolism going on in all of the films, coming of age, atonement with the father, spirituality, biblical themes, technology vs spirituality, the list goes on. Where was any of that in Attack of the Clones? Like the whole movie seemed like it was trying hard to pay homage to Empire and capture themes from that movie, instead of trying to capture themes from the source. The bad guy is someone we meet 30-40 minutes before the end of the movie and we are given a "love story" that makes Twilight look like Shakespear. I guess you could say that Attack of the Clones was a homage to the B movies of the 50s ,you know with the title and all, but that just doesn't cut it because NONE of the originals did that. Sure they paid homage to the movie serials of the 40s but they updated them and had a lot of deeper stuff going on.

In the prequels we don't really get to know much of anything about any of the villains (Maul, Grevious, Dooku) and they're 2 dimensional and interchangeable. Like Dooku was Qui-Gons master so does that mean like "no Obi-Wan, I am your grandmaster...", I mean what was the point of Dooku at all, or General Grevious. They should have developed some emotional tension between one of the villains and the heroes so that way theres something at stake when they're fighting. Even the fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin isn't built up at all the way it should have been. Since they met in the Phantom Menace Obi-Wan was just kind of forcing himself to like Anakin for Qui-Gon, then in Attack of the Clones Lucas told them to act as "two friends that have spent too much time together", thats real and I have friends I feel that way about, but you have show them actually liking eacother! It seemed like in the beginning of Revenge of the Sith they realized Anakin and Obi-Wan had never been seen getting along so they wrote it in to try and retroactively fix this problem, but the thing was we just saw two hours of them hating each other which was supposed to represent 10 years of their relationship! By the time they were fighting it was still interesting because it was like the two main characters, but it was like finally, I'm shocked they didn't cut eachothers heads off in the first place. This should have been tragic and slowly built up too.

Now the Acting in these films is atrocious. I'm not sure if it's the really odd dialogue (if you look closely in Revenge of the Sith you can find Ewan holding back laughter as he tells Padme Anakin killed Younglings) or if its the odd way they were directed (Sam Jacksons entire character/ The Natalie Portman good actor outside Star Wars anomaly). Personally I think it's a combination of both. Actors are supposed to study one character and really into their minds their psyches and understand them and only them. In many cases they add lib small things that end up being more in character and appropriate than anything the director could have thought of. As far as I can tell Christopher Lee and Ian McDiarmid were the only actors given room too actually act, the other actors were more like tools for Lucas to use. Basically like the CGI puppets we see on the Clone Wars but people. Thats sad because some of the best things in Star Wars came from the actors (Han Solo's I know, Alec Guiness's Obi-Wan instead of being a crazy eccentric from the dessert). The actors just all seem very wooden and out of their comfort zone, especially Sam Jackson "The OPPRESSION of the Sith will NEVERRR return!!!".

I could go on for hours infact I've seen several review go on for close to half an hour or longer, but I think I've said what I need to say. Like I have said I loved these movies when I was a kid and they were a huge important part of my childhood, I love Phantom Menace for the nostalgia but they just don't hold up compared to the originals. Say what you'd like about opinion and what not that fine, it just doesn't change the truth that there is such a thing as a bad movie and a bad story.

[Octoberist]

THE CGI backgrounds made Episode 2 and 3 feel like black box theater. But instead of letting your imagination fill in the blacks, it's done for you via sterile, lifeless environments.

[Soapy]

Totally agree with you LegendAssemble.

I also agree that there are such things as objectively good or bad films or other pieces of entertainment. Most people are too in love with their own opinions to admit that maybe they like something terrible though.

[Hunter Rider]

Everything LegendAssemble wrote was merely an opinion on a theory. Keep it cool in here fellas.

[LegendAssemble]

Well if anyone thinks these movies are good and that I'm just arrogant and trying to pass my opinions as fact. I suggest you watch the redlettermedia reviews on youtube, they're quite entertaining and they're very well put together, and they illustrate exactly what I mean by these not being good movies. I came to the conclusion I wasn't big on Attack of the Clones and the Phantom Menace a long time ago but these reviews helped me put my finger on why. Anyway you can go ahead and write me off as arrogant or stupid, but at least humor me and watch the video. (Warning this is definitely a PG-13 review).

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

Everything LegendAssemble wrote was merely an opinion on a theory. Keep it cool in here fellas.

Then it would be useful if he knew that and acted accordingly.

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by Soapy

Most people are too in love with their own opinions to admit that maybe they like something terrible though.

That's classy. And fair. And open-minded.

[Hunter Rider]

You can't post videos with cussing in guys. For the record forming opinions on a video review that can easily be countered as roach once proved, is never a good idea, art cannot be quantified as it's personal, flaws can be accepted without ruining a whole piece. At any rate, as I said, just keep it chill.

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

Then it would be useful if he knew that and acted accordingly.

I'm trying to get that point across Gianakin, LegendAssemble is newish here and learning the ropes.

[LegendAssemble]

Originally Posted by Hunter Rider

You can't post videos with cussing in guys. For the record forming opinions on a video review that can easily be countered as roach once proved, is never a good idea, art cannot be quantified as it's personal, flaws can be accepted without ruining a whole piece. At any rate, as I said, just keep it chill.

Ehhh I was kinda uncertain about the language but it's a pretty good review if you've never seen them. I mean I don't say you base your opinion around the review it just says what I'm trying to say much much better than I ever could. Thanks for just taking it down though and not giving me any penalties.

[CGHulk]

I dunno, that whole "I had a bad dream about my wife so I will kill ALL THE CHILDREN!" seems ludicrous to me!

[Gianakin_]

It was a vision/premonition, one that panned out to be true in the past with his mother.

And he didn't go from vision to slaughter. He went from vision to obeying the man who told him he could change the outcome of said vision. And that man wanted blood, so Anakin gladly drew it, even from kids.

[CGHulk]

Originally Posted by Gianakin_

It was a vision/premonition, one that panned out to be true in the past with his mother.

And he didn't go from vision to slaughter. He went from vision to obeying the man who told him he could change the outcome of said vision. And that man wanted blood, so Anakin gladly drew it, even from kids.

You lost me when you said for kids. Nothing would make me kill a kid, I'd take my own life first before taking a childs. If we are made to believe that there's good in Anakin he would not of done it. Sorry that is one of the parts in the prequel trilogy where George failed. Two wrongs don't make a right, you don't kill other children so you can save your own. The woman you are saving would never ever agree to that. It would disrespect her values as most woman it would. I would consult with her first before carry out something as drastic about her life/death, she'd probably say no to such a situation.

If you believe in a higher order, God's judgement or reincarnation with cause and effect and karma consequences in another life you would't do it. Or even if you are Atheist who believes in the quality of all life who doesn't kill because killing someone destroys all that they were, which makes them value life even more than those that think they get a second chance or a deity forgives them for their crimes all that is forgiven. See what Anakin has done here defies human thinking. Also nobody could remotely live with oneself after what Anakin has done here, I personally I would go insane and having to be admitted to a psych ward having to just go through the thought process of killing all the Jedi and the younglings for the swap of my wife and child! Or be scarred for many life times because of it!

[Gianakin_]

Originally Posted by CGHulk

You lost me when you said for kids. Nothing would make me kill a kid, I'd take my own life first before taking a childs.

Are you Anakin?

If we are made to believe that there's good in Anakin he would not of done it.

That's certainly fair enough.

Two wrongs don't make a right, you don't kill other children so you can save your own.

Says who? You can't speak for every human in the real world, much less for one in the fictional world.

The woman you are saving would never ever agree to that. It would disrespect her values as most woman it would.

She never agreed to that. That's partially why he choked her.

I would consult with her first before carry out something as drastic about her life/death, she'd probably say no to such a situation.

Not much of a Fall to the Dark Side if he had talked about it with her like husband and wife. "Honey, could you get me the paper? And can I speak to you about something I wanted to do to some Padawans?"

If you believe in a higher order, God's judgement or reincarnation with cause and effect and karma consequences in another life you would't do it. Or even if you are Atheist who believes in the quality of all life who doesn't kill because killing someone destroys all that they were, which makes them value life even more than those that think they get a second chance or a deity forgives them for their crimes all that is forgiven.

I don't see what all this has to do with the SW universe, the script and themes, but ok.

See what Anakin has done here defies human thinking. Also nobody could remotely live with oneself after what Anakin has done here, I personally I would go insane and having to be admitted to a psych ward having to just go through the thought process of killing all the Jedi and the younglings for the swap of my wife and child! Or be scarred for many life times because of it!

I'm sorry, but you seem fairly oblivious to the horrors a human being can do. You can certainly say you're not agreeing with Anakin, or that you can't relate to him (I don't either), but it defies human thinking? You seem to be ignoring Hitler or other dictators.

And, anyway, the whole idea was to show him become a villain. Sure, Lucas coulda pulled his punches, but even from AotC he made Anakin a ruthless child murderer. And I'm glad he did. I want my villains to be villains, not just cool looking guys who kill in cool ways. What Lucas did with Anakin in the PT truly made him a monster.

And Vader couldn't live with himself after all the things he did. He was a dead man in a partially robotic body for 24 years. He was a shell of a human being. That was the point. People nowadays (and especially fanboys) have somehow lost the meaning of the word villain and tend to equate it to coolness. But a villain is many times someone who does despicable things, that challenge the views of the heroes and the audience.

You weren't supposed to agree with Anakin in the end, but mourn for him for going from the helpful selfless child in TPM to the selfish monster in RotS. If editing, acting, FX and that crap failed to make you feel that, that's fair enough. But there is no leap in logci there. Human beings are capable of such disgusting deeds. You just wouldn't do them. Doesn't mean others won't.

[Thundercrack85]

Am I the only one who thinks Palpatine had a point about the Jedi's turning bad (or at least less good)?

I mean granted, he was just saying that, but he wasn't wrong.

How is using enslaved / brainwashed clone armies moral?

[Gianakin_]

I'm with you. The Jedi were in their prime, like Lucas said, but only in terms of numbers and political status within the Republic. But they were decadent as hell. That's why I like the character of Mace Windu. He sums up the arrogance and decadence of the Jedi of the Republic era.

[Thundercrack85]

I recall that was a complaint, that the Jedi weren't likable.

And well... yeah they weren't. Obi was a good guy. But everyone else seemed pretty damn detached. Even Yoda.

The irony is, if they hadn't dismissed Anakin, and essentially said "fine, train him if you have to" and actually treated him right...

Well, actually, the Jedi are almost entirely to blame for the collapse of the Old Republic. From the clone armies, to treating the Star Wars equivalent of Jesus like a pariah.

I never liked the idea of their headquarters being on Coruscant either. Guess it makes sense for practical reasons. But you'd expect a monk order to live on some unremarkable world. Like in KOTOR, on Dantooine.

[Gianakin_]

They weren't likeable... and that's what I liked about the PT, as well.

Obi wasn't even fully a good guy. He was VERY arrogant in AotC, Yoda even implied it about him. Yoda was like a king who was no longer prepared for anything. He got comfy. As Bane put it: Victory had defeated him.

Both sides made mistakes. Anakin was already selfish due to his age and his attachment to people and wordly stuff and the Jedi were an austere society and that was a dangerous combo. Had Qui-Gon been alive, things would've gone very differently, 'cause he never played by the Council's rules, he was the proto-Jedi that Luke eventually became in RotJ.

See, I never thought the Jedi were monks in the PT. That's probably what turned audiences off, 'cause Obi-Wan implied otherwise in the OT, but the Jedi in the PT were a weird Church/Police hybrid.

[Thundercrack85]

Well the continuity is kind of shaky period. In the old films Han Solo seemed pretty skeptical of the Force and Jedi in general. Sort of implied that the Jedi were a mysterious group, people knew about, but presumably rarely saw in action. Or at least not the face of the Republic as the newer films showed.

I do wonder if showing them to be haughty and out of touch was intentional. Given how little thought was put into the rest of the movies, that seems a little too subtle.

Almost makes you wonder if Dooku was sincere.

So, I guess the prophecy works. Anakin kills all the decadent Jedi, rebirthing the order. I can't imagine the new order Luke would start would look anything like the old one.

[Gianakin_]

Even if the Jedi were pretty well known, they were extinct for 18 years. Solo was 29 in ANH, so 11 in RotS. I can see him growing up in a world without Jedi and even though he may have heard stories he had no hard evidence of Jedi or the Force anymore. It's very easy to see why he doesn't believe.

I don't think a little thought was put into the movies and that's why I believe it was definitely intentional.

Dooku got short-changed. He's one of my favorite characters and I believe he was sincere, but the pull of the Dark Side was too strong and he lost focus.

I don't want the New Republic's Jedi to be anything like the Old ones.