The IRON MAN 3 News & Speculation Thread - Part 5

[Hawkingbird]

I'd like it. It'd get everyone hyped up for Ant Man. Which, given he isn't well known, is what they would want.

[Matarreyes]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

um not really..... She had actual legit plot points.... More than even Happy.....

What did she ever do?
1) Play the potential curvy love interest - completely unnecesary storyline, ultimately underdeveloped by the scriptwriters.
2) Spy on Tony - he is on the news 24/7 and cannot stop talking about himself, there is hardly any need for a personalised spy.
3) Provide temporal cure? Tony could have just found one himself. In fact, it looked borderline stupid that he had not investigated antidotes for heavy metal poisoning.
4) Get into Hammer headquarters? It would have not even been necesary if JARVIS had been the one to hack the War Machine suit, which again would have been the cooler solution.

She was in IM2 for 2 reasons: provide breasty fanboy fodder and be a setup for another movie without adding value to the IM2 itself. Not at all a cameo, just an completely unnecesary character.

[marvel_freshman]

New interview with James Badge Dale, who I had no idea was in the trailer until now.

“Ben Kingsley is the mouthpiece. Guy Pearce is the brain. I’m the muscle,” he said. Being in 200 million movies with CGI “is a weird departure” for him. “I’m more of a ‘put two guys in a room and we’ll just talk to each other’ style of actor. But I had a lot of fun. I learned to ride a horse. I got to beat up grown men in robot suits and shoot zombies with Brad Pitt.”

http://www.showbiz411.com/2012/12/01...swalds-brother

[Sockin]

Originally Posted by marvel_freshman

New interview with James Badge Dale, who I had no idea was in the trailer until now.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2012/12/01...swalds-brother

"Ben Kingsley is the mouthpiece. Guy Pearce is the brain. I’m the muscle....I got to beat up grown men in robot suits"

So can we assume that his character will be a Mallen type? (i.e. an Extremis enhanced human with super strength/speed/enough power to beat up IM.)

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by marvel_freshman

New interview with James Badge Dale, who I had no idea was in the trailer until now.

http://www.showbiz411.com/2012/12/01...swalds-brother

That looks more like something for the Village People or a Chippendales event.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Sockin

So can we assume that his character will be a Mallen type? (i.e. an Extremis enhanced human with super strength/speed/enough power to beat up IM.)

Dale was long ago confirmed to be playing Coldblood (Lt. Col. Eric Savin).

http://marvel.wikia.com/Eric_Savin_(Earth-616)

[Crimson King]

I honestly don't get why anyone complains about cameos/guest stars in the MCU. It wouldn't be a connected universe if there was nothing to connect the stories. That's not saying these character appearances have to overpower the movie or anything, but they're definitely necessary.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Crimson King

I honestly don't get why anyone complains about cameos/guest stars in the MCU. It wouldn't be a connected universe if there was nothing to connect the stories. That's not saying these character appearances have to overpower the movie or anything, but they're definitely necessary.

TBH, I'm not complaining about Widow in IM2. Yes, I think her role was superfluous and unnecessary to the storyline, and needlessly complicated a movie that already had more than enough antagonists/foils for Tony, but I was happy to see her, and see ScarJo play her nicely.

But bit parts like Hawkeye are just "ugh." If you're going to actually *have* a cameo as Hawkeye, then do something Hawkeye-ish, goddammit. Don't just pull a bow, aim, then stand down and never contribute anything to the plot.

That's why I think the theory that Janet is in this one is complete bull****, because there is absolutely nothing in that brief scene, and nothing in the faux rumormills about her role that are even remotely like the Janet Van Dyne of the comic books (616 or Ultimate).

[Son of Coul]

I actually don't think cameos like the Hawkeye one are distracting at all. It's like Branagh said, they were always gonna have a sniper in the nest to increase tension-- why not Hawkeye? It contributes about as much as the big guy Thor fights during the scene; just adding another obstacle. But nobody complained about him.

But if Marvel came out and said it was gonna be Luke Cage in the scene, people would've been rolling their eyes and calling it forced. The only people who complained about Hawkeye were the ones who knew about his upcoming presence and role in the Avengers movie. Anyone else I knew who saw it literally thought nothing of it. They didn't think it was "pointless" or "forced" or "out-of-place". The only question I ever got about the scene was why did the sniper guy grab a bow instead of a gun.

Despite all the extra material BW was given to do in IM2, I would give far more credence to her character being called forced than Hawkeye's logical role in a pivotal scene. She was fine in context, but still could've been stripped out and the movie wouldn't be substantially different. The same can be said for Hawkeye I suppose, but he didn't take up unnecessary time-- he contributed rather than subtracted from the story, even if it was in a relatively minor way.

[Hawkingbird]

I think BW's role was just as important as Rhodey's or Pepper's.

[Brian Braddock]

Originally Posted by Son of Coul

I actually don't think cameos like the Hawkeye one are distracting at all.

Happen to agree and don't see what all the fuss is about tbh.

Truth is, I'm selfish and old enough to remember a time when movies such as these were just a pipe dream - I want to see as many Marvel characters realised on the big screen as I can and the fact that these movies come around so infrequently (well, relatively infrequently to the comics, anyways) and only last for a short duration means that I cannot be picky about 'character x' popping up in 'character y's movie.

I'm just happy that I'm getting to see 'character x' at all.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Son of Coul

The only people who complained about Hawkeye were the ones who knew about his upcoming presence and role in the Avengers movie. Anyone else I knew who saw it literally thought nothing of it. They didn't think it was "pointless" or "forced" or "out-of-place". The only question I ever got about the scene was why did the sniper guy grab a bow instead of a gun.

And that's why a cameo like that is useless: it does nothing to let people *out* of the know (non-fanboys) who this guy is or that he's important to another movie; and it pisses off people who *are* in the know (fanboys) because he didn't do anything really in character. If he'd fired an explosive arrow or something, the scene would've been more of an actual intro to Hawkeye.

[Chewy]

If that scene actively pissed you off you may want to reevaluate a thing or two

Besides, he snarked Coulson. That's way more in-character for Hawkeye than firing some arrow

It teased the future for fans without confusing newcomers or bogging down the movie. Really not seeing the issue here

[TheVileOne]

I hope Black will be OK juggling all these characters in one movie that isn't The Avengers.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Chewy

If that scene actively pissed you off you may want to reevaluate a thing or two

Besides, he snarked Coulson. That's way more in-character for Hawkeye than firing some arrow

It teased the future for fans without confusing newcomers or bogging down the movie. Really not seeing the issue here

eh, while i loved the cameo as a fan in the know...

most of my friends who were completely out of the know, could tell obviously he was suppose to be someone due to the way the screen focused on him, and were actually kinda confused by it.. so that is a legitimate critique

[Chewy]

Maybe confused to the point of asking someone or googling who that guy was. Kind of like the Thanos scene after the Avengers' credits.

Which seems like the point - it helps to drive interest in the characters' future appearances without being overwhelming or off-putting to those not in the know

[spideyboy_1111]

eh.. most of my friends don't care to look things up. sure they ask.. but once they get the answer they really don't care anyway since they arn't familiar with the character anyway. Kinda hard to get people excited for something when they know nothing about it.

that's been the general consensus for literally all my non-comic fan friends.

Fanboys look up who people are far more than non fans

[R_Hythlodeus]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Maybe confused to the point of asking someone or googling who that guy was. Kind of like the Thanos scene after the Avengers' credits.

Which seems like the point - it helps to drive interest in the characters' future appearances without being overwhelming or off-putting to those not in the know

^this. of course having the camera randomly focus on non other than Jeremy Renner will lead to questions.
But the cameo itself was very well crafted into the story. He had a purpose in that sce. Almost every other agent of SHIELD could have done the same thing he did (which would have happend if Whedon would've said 'no' to Renner as Hawkeye), but instead they chose Clint to appear. A very wise move to get the attention of casual movie goers and make them interested in that character.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

eh.. most of my friends don't care to look things up. sure they ask.. but once they get the answer they really don't care anyway since they arn't familiar with the character anyway. Kinda hard to get people excited for something when they know nothing about it.

that's been the general consensus for literally all my non-comic fan friends.

Fanboys look up who people are far more than non fans

Well I did say OR, lol. As in, if no one they asked knew they'd look it up briefly

And then they're at least aware of the character, and the fact that they'll be significant

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Well I did say OR, lol. As in, if no one they asked knew they'd look it up briefly

And then they're at least aware of the character, and the fact that they'll be significant

1) showing a character doesn't always mean they're significant...
1a) hawkeye wasn't even that significant in Avengers....

2) like i said... MOST people actually don't really care enough to look that up.

[Superhero 101]

Originally Posted by Sockin

So can we assume that his character will be a Mallen type? (i.e. an Extremis enhanced human with super strength/speed/enough power to beat up IM.)

I really hope we get some nice fight sequences this time around.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

eh.. most of my friends don't care to look things up. sure they ask.. but once they get the answer they really don't care anyway since they arn't familiar with the character anyway. Kinda hard to get people excited for something when they know nothing about it.

that's been the general consensus for literally all my non-comic fan friends.

Fanboys look up who people are far more than non fans

And yet I'd be willing to bet if Jeremy Renner had fired some trick arrow and did some outlandish "holy ****! " shot with it, your friends and the rest of the general audience would become VERY interested in the character. Far more so than just watching him threaten to fire an arrow, and then not.

*That's* how you sell a character. Marvel Studios did *not* sell the character (Hawkeye, that is) in Thor.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

And yet I'd be willing to bet if Jeremy Renner had fired some trick arrow and did some outlandish "holy ****! " shot with it, your friends and the rest of the general audience would become VERY interested in the character. Far more so than just watching him threaten to fire an arrow, and then not.

*That's* how you sell a character. Marvel Studios did *not* sell the character (Hawkeye, that is) in Thor.

Agrees. You couldnt of cared less if you saw more of him or not

[LokiDionysos]

I honestly think a lot of people here have a point and it can't be just a cameo. It can't be pointless. Marvel's learned from their mistakes of the past, so even though some of the things in phase 2 may be jam packed, I'm thinking they'll be integrated a little better. That's what Feige could be talking about by saying IM3 is a nice mixture of things. Like what we're seeing with AIM, Mandarin, Firepower, Coldblood, Iron Patriot-sort of, Extremis, Rescue, Radioactive Man, all appearing in one movie.

I've attempted to work in Jan because I've come across sources I personally know, and that are involved in some small way- telling me she's Jan. I still have no real clue how that would work.

I'm just thinking of ways that they could be worked in so that it's not as pointless as Widow or Hawkeye. If they were already working for AIM, instead of are it makes it easier. Sort of like they're casually mentioned by both AIM and Shield in the TV show because they've worked for each organization in the past.

The show could detail the history of AIM and Shield every once in a while, but only make reference to people like Pym and Janet who were a big part of the 80's. Pym is knowwhere to be seen until after the GoTG.

My full theory, for those who want to read it (in spoiler tags so it doesn't take up room):

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

In my full theory her presence won't be completely explained until the Ant Man movie. You could see a little of AIM's background with them in the TV show, but mainly Shield's past with AIM. Hank and Jan won't be seen together until Avengers 2. When they're reunited after being separated by dimensions as well as space and time (due to Ultron's plot to stop their existence in this timeline through what they were working on for AIM). Janet and Pym were working on a top-secret project for AIM after leaving Shield. They unlocked Pym particles and almost unlocked sub-space time-travel through neutrinos. AIM is trying to retrieve Red Skull from the past--they're secretly a modern tool for Hydra (but we don't know this for sure or find this out until Avengers 2).

Shortly after making himself big again, Pym and Janet attempt to flee from AIM/Ultron prototype 2 to the future with the device they were being forced to build for AIM. As well as the Pym particle research (which he destroys and is now only within his mind). Jan decides to biologically enhance herself with the Pym particles even though Pym hasn't done it to himself. There's not enough time to build her a suit, and they're arguing because Ultron is taking over AIM... She injects herself with nano-biological implants Pym was working on for himself. They allow her to size change at will with the Pym particles, without a suit. Pym doesn't have the biological enhancements that Jan has at the end of the story... This leads to Jan ending up where they intended, and Pym somewhere else. They make themselves the size of neutrinos, get the time machine functioning, and take Ultron out of the past (which has repercussions for the future of the series and would be how Ultron "leads" the masters in Avengers 2). This was Shield's not so recent mistake of letting that technology fall into AIM's hands. In the Avengers Fury says "Shield made a lot of mistakes, some of them recent".

Janet winds up at some point in Advanced Idea Mechanic's future before the time of IM3 and infiltrates them to search for Pym. Stark knows nothing about AIM's past, and it becomes clear to her at some point that they didn't finish the time-travel research. Mandarin like to act like an Oracle but he knows nothing of Shield and AIM's true past, only what he predicts about the future based on past Empires. She quickly gets wrapped up with Stark and Shield. Pym ended up somewhere much further away because he hasn't altered himself biologically yet. He slipped between time and dimensions as they were traveling... The Yellowjacket suit he's been building to time-travel in malfunctions. Sending Jan to the present as they travel & thrusting him into the GoTG movie for a cameo as Yellowjacket before we're fully introduced to how this Pym has been traveling time and space. He went into the negative spaces between time and dimensions because he wasn't able to directly hitch a ride on neutrinos like Jan was. Pym from the 80's has been missing for a long time, never heard from again, but returns after Lang dies in the present. With a way to send villains into the negative zone.

The first time people would see Pym they wouldn't know it was him, unless they're familiar with Yellowjacket. Jan becomes a big part of the after credits but doesn't know this is where he ended up. We find out a little about her search for him in CA:Winter Soldier. Yellowjacket's raygun is tuned to the negative zone and makes a brief cameo at Knowwhere in GoTG with the future Guardians. They contact one of the 21st century Guardians about Thanos. Adding more mystery to the Pym/Janet separation until it's explained through Avengers 2 and the Ant Man movie. Allowing Pym's Yellowjacket persona to be briefly expressed. When we see him in Avengers 2 he's becoming Ant Man/Giant Man as a hero for the first time, and Lang's powers introduce him to the story. Lang would be included from the beginning of Avengers 2 but dies. Thankfully a force from beyond time has sent Pym back to the 21st century where he's needed to protect the galaxy and defeat Ultron/Thanos.

I do agree that if she's Janet for no other purpose than as a cameo to set her up, then it would suck.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

I honestly think a lot of people here have a point and it can't be just a cameo. It can't be pointless. Marvel's learned from their mistakes of the past, so even though some of the things in phase 2 may be jam packed, I'm thinking they'll be integrated a little better. That's what Feige could be talking about by saying IM3 is a nice mixture of things. Like what we're seeing with AIM, Mandarin, Firepower, Coldblood, Iron Patriot-sort of, Extremis, Rescue, Radioactive Man, all appearing in one movie.

I've attempted to work in Jan, because I've come across sources I personally know, and that are involved in some small way, telling me she's Jan. I still have no real clue how that would work.

I'm just thinking of ways that they could be worked in so that it's not as pointless as Widow or Hawkeye, if they were already working for AIM instead of are it makes it easier. Sort of like they're casually mentioned by both AIM and Shield in the TV show because they've worked for each organization in the past.

The show could detail the history of AIM and Shield every once in a while, but only make reference to people like Pym and Janet who were a big part of the 80's, but Pym is knowwhere to be seen until after the GoTG.

My full theory, for those who want to read it (in spoiler tags so it doesn't take up room):

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

In my full theory her presence won't be completely explained until the Ant Man movie. You could see a little of AIM's background with them in the TV show, but mainly Shield's past with AIM. Hank and Jan won't be seen together until Avengers 2, when they reunite after being separated by dimensions, as well as space and time (due to Ultron's plot to stop their existence in this timeline, through what they were working on for AIM). Janet and Pym were working on a top-secret project for AIM after leaving Shield. They unlocked Pym particles and almost unlocked sub-space time-travel through neutrinos. AIM is trying to retrieve Red Skull from the past, they're secretly a modern tool for Hydra (but we don't know this or find this out until Avengers 2).

Shortly after making himself big again, Pym and Janet attempt to flee from AIM/Ultron prototype 2 to the future with the device they were being forced to build for AIM. As well as the Pym particle research (which he destroys and is now only within his mind). Jan decides to biologically enhance herself with the Pym particles even though Pym hasn't done it to himself. Only because there's not enough time to build her a suit and they're arguing. Pym doesn't have the biological enhancements that Jan has at the end of the story... This leads to Jan ending up where they intended, and Pym somewhere else. They make themselves the size of neutrinos, get the time machine functioning, and take Ultron out of the past (which has repercussions for the future of the series and would be how Ultron "leads" the masters in Avengers 2). Shield's not so recent mistake of letting that technology fall into AIM's hands. In the Avengers Fury says "Shield made a lot of mistakes, some of them recent." Jan winds up at some point in Advanced Idea Mechanic's future. Pym ends up somewhere further away because he hasn't altered himself biologically yet. The Yellowjacket suit he's been building to time-travel in malfunctions. Sending Jan to the present as they travel & thrusting him into the GoTG movie for a cameo as Yellowjacket before we're fully introduced to how this Pym has been traveling time and space. He went into the negative spaces between time and dimensions because he wasn't able to directly hitch a ride on neutrinos like Jan was. Pym from the 80's has been missing for a long time, never heard from again, but returns after Lang dies in the present. With a way to send villains into the negative zone.

The first time people would see Pym they wouldn't know it was him, unless they're familiar with Yellowjacket. Jan becomes a big part of the after credits but doesn't know this is where he ended up. We find out a little about her search for him in CA:Winter Soldier. Yellowjacket's raygun is tuned to the negative zone and makes a brief cameo at Knowwhere in GoTG with the future Guardians. They contact one of the 21st century Guardians about Thanos. Adding more mystery to the Pym/Janet separation until it's explained through Avengers 2 and the Ant Man movie. Allowing Pym's Yellowjacket persona to be briefly expressed. When we see him in Avengers 2 he's becoming Ant Man/Giant Man as a hero for the first time, and Lang's powers introduce him to the story. Lang would be included from the beginning of Avengers 2 but dies. Thankfully a force from beyond time has sent Pym back to the 21st century where he's needed to protect the galaxy and defeat Ultron/Thanos.

I do agree that if she's Janet for no other purpose than as a cameo to set her up, then it would suck.

LokiDionysos, as usual you have a very interesting take on things, but I am not so sure about all of the time travel stuff. It just seems to be getting confusing to me. I am also not sure why characters, that I would generally not consider to be time travelers in the comics, would appear as such in the film. I think it would be better to leave time travel to a character like Kang, and have the knowledge and technology to time travel come from the future, not from present day like you are suggesting. However, maybe thats just me.

Surfer