It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's the Superman Costume Thread! - Part 1

[Rust]

Originally Posted by StarvingArtist

I'm curious, what makes you think that will make good drama? What are you hoping to see?

Personally, what I want to see is innocent, decent people and their kids in terrifying as f-ck danger, either by disaster or villain..... Then Superman swooping in to save the day and look badass doing it. The kind of formula that made that scene in the first Iron Man so satisfying. I want people to root for Superman again.

Me too, man. When the bad guys are tearing up the place, I wanna go, "Damn, where's Superman?", and when he finally shows up and starts kicking ass I wanna feel like a 10-year-old again.
Yeah, I guess if I can feel like a 10-year-old again next summer MOS will have succeeded in my book.

[StarvingArtist]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. Superman's heritage (and nano-tech suit) doesn't make him any less relatable to the general audience whatsoever. Kal-El has always been a man of two worlds. Why would it be any different now?

What Snyder, Nolan and Goyer have done is humanize Superman but also showcased him as this ass-kicking titan.

At any rate, it won't be Kal-El's humanity that will bring forth the audience. For instance, Nolan's Batman wasn't marketed as Bruce Wayne's story at first. The crowd arrived for Batman potentially beating criminals into a bloody pulp but they were also treated to a grand story involving the man behind the symbol and legend.

Superman's Kryptonian heritage doesn't hinder a damn thing. It's all in the writing and execution.

This debate is going to devolve into an endless argument over wide abstractions and assumptions about Superman which I don't have time for. But what I will say... Is how is the marketing for Nolan's batman relevant at all? I'm confused, are you trying to argue that it's not the humanity and motivations of the characters that makes the audience care about a movie?

First of all it WAS marketed as a BW story first. Watch the trailers. The whole point of the freaking series was to feature Wayne's rise to becoming Batman. In Rises, batman is missing for the entire middle of the movie and the series even ends with him choosing to just live his life as Bruce Wayne. The crowds knew what the movies were about, and that's why they went. They arrived to see batman movies unlike anything they had seen prior; the elaborate backstory and the gritty real world setting being the hooks. Special effects and ass kicking mean little if you're not invested in the characters. If they were everything, then Batman & Robin would have won a f-ing Oscar.

[moviedoors]

Originally Posted by StarvingArtist

I'm curious, what makes you think that will make good drama? What are you hoping to see?

Personally, what I want to see is innocent, decent people and their kids in terrifying as f-ck danger, either by disaster or villain..... Then Superman swooping in to save the day and look badass doing it. The kind of formula that made that scene in the first Iron Man so satisfying. I want people to root for Superman again.

That scene where Iron Man shows up to kick ass for the first time is awesome precisely because of what I'm talking about. If we hadn't seen Tony's struggles, if we hadn't seen his growth, hadn't seen what it took for him to become the man who has to save lives, that scene would have been so much empty spectacle. It would have been a Transformers movie. The action was married to Tony's arc as a character. THAT is drama. That is what Man of Steel has to have to work as something more than just a bunch of worthless Bayhem.

I want to see Clark struggle with realizing he has a two fathers. I want to see Clark pine for his home world, personified in Zod, a man who knows more about where he really came from than anyone alive. I want to see him him tempted, to fight with his two heritages, to grow, and to become the hero. The ass kicking is going to be there. The drama will make it play.

And whether he wears his suit under his clothes or it's something more alien is kind of a minor blip in whether that's going to work or not. I just happen to lean more towards something alien, because I haven't seen that before.

[ConnorKon-El]

Originally Posted by Rust

Me too, man. When the bad guys are tearing up the place, I wanna go, "Damn, where's Superman?", and when he finally shows up and starts kicking ass I wanna feel like a 10-year-old again.
Yeah, I guess if I can feel like a 10-year-old again next summer MOS will have succeeded in my book.

Pretty much this.

[The Shield]

Originally Posted by Rust

Me too, man. When the bad guys are tearing up the place, I wanna go, "Damn, where's Superman?", and when he finally shows up and starts kicking ass I wanna feel like a 10-year-old again.
Yeah, I guess if I can feel like a 10-year-old again next summer MOS will have succeeded in my book.

This x 2!

[nogap87]

I have no interest in seeing Clark "pine" for something that

A) He shouldn't miss

and

B) No longer exists

Originally Posted by Rust

Me too, man. When the bad guys are tearing up the place, I wanna go, "Damn, where's Superman?", and when he finally shows up and starts kicking ass I wanna feel like a 10-year-old again.
Yeah, I guess if I can feel like a 10-year-old again next summer MOS will have succeeded in my book.

Agreed.

[moviedoors]

Originally Posted by nogap87

I have no interest in seeing Clark "pine" for something that

A) He shouldn't miss

and

B) No longer exists

He shouldn't have some interest in what the hell he is? He grows up with powers and abilities that separate him from every other creature on Earth, he learns the people he thought were his parents only adopted him, he finds out that he's not even from here, and he just shouldn't care? Come on.

[nogap87]

Originally Posted by moviedoors

He shouldn't have some interest in what the hell he is? He grows up with powers and abilities that separate him from every other creature on Earth, he learns the people he thought were his parents only adopted him, he finds out that he's not even from here, and he just shouldn't care? Come on.

I have no problem with him showing interest in why he was sent to earth. But once he finds out that his homeworld blew up than he should move on with his life. Pining for something that is long gone is a waste of time.

[747]

Being curious about where he comes from, having feelings for the Krypton legacy, having conflicted feelings about his purpose and not always feeling like he belongs are all huge parts of the character I would say.

I don't get some people that just want a movie where Superman punches someone and saves the day and then they are satisfied. I want that too, but I also want so much more than just that. I want a Superman movie with great action AND great drama.

[nogap87]

I want drama too. I also want Clark to focus on the here and now. Krypton and most of its inhabitants are dead. Earth is his home now and that should be his primary concern.

[StarvingArtist]

Truth is that whether the story revolves around his heritage or his heroics, a good movie can be found in either idea as long as the characters are compelling and you care about their motivations. That's the foundation. The rest is window dressing.

[not_a_victim]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying what you're selling. Superman's heritage (and nano-tech suit) doesn't make him any less relatable to the general audience whatsoever. Kal-El has always been a man of two worlds. Why would it be any different now?

What Snyder, Nolan and Goyer have done is humanize Superman but also showcased him as this ass-kicking titan.

At any rate, it won't be Kal-El's humanity that will bring forth the audience. For instance, Nolan's Batman wasn't marketed as Bruce Wayne's story at first. The crowd arrived for Batman potentially beating criminals into a bloody pulp but they were also treated to a grand story involving the man behind the symbol and legend.

Superman's Kryptonian heritage doesn't hinder a damn thing. It's all in the writing and execution.

Excellent point.
In STM, we got only the briefest mention that Kal-El would never really fit in with humans, and that was simply in the form of exposition from Jor-El's words. It looks like this film will deal more directly with his issues of being an alien and how that affects him on different levels.
STM simply made him out to be s super Boy Scout. MOS will hopefully make us empathize with an self-outcast.

[not_a_victim]

Originally Posted by spidermanJLA!~

I believe that the tights add a mythical, imaginative nature to superheroes.... figuratively. But feasibly? No, sorry. Some things are just the way they are.
Some insight on the subject:http://beamsandstruts.com/articles/item/671-superman

It's funny that the article equates the wearing of trunks on the outside with circus strongmen, then use a photo of a strongman NOT wearing external trunks. He just wearing a singlet and a belt.

[CLARKY]

Originally Posted by DoomsdayApex

Not really. There's a reason why Superman is losing his popularity with the modern audience. It's the identical reason why Returns received a 'meh' reaction.

He's a product of a different era, and hasn't changed with the times like Batman and Spiderman have recently. For alot of people out there, the perception is Kal-El is stuck in the 80s.

Upgrades are essential if you want the audience to respond.

I think you are quite wrong, but your opinion is also the opinion of a lot of people and those people, ready to pay for a "realistic" Superman, are a part of the audience anyway.
Since you were replying to something costume-related, and since this is the costume thread, I find it caricatural to make it a point of Superman losing his popularity related to a need of an upgrade, meaning a new suit. Wow. It seems a lot of people inneed for a realistic Superman can't in fact go further than the suit. Personnaly, the trunks are great, but even if, under a weird condition, I would have to take it away, I would replace it with something red in the middle of the suit. So for me the MoS suit is pretty lame and ridiculous, but it does not mean one MUST have the trunks, it's just that there are 100 000 better idea. Let's not mix things up (not saying that you did on this precise point).
So, the lost of popularity is not due to his suit but due to the character itself, hisway of life, his opinion, his invincibility (how many times did I hear suckers asking me "what's the fun? He can beat them all, he's invincible". Most of the time people who did not open a comicbook, and even less a Superman comic. Those same who actually loved Nolan's batman trilogy).
So is it so difficult to understand that Superman is more than just a suit? Is it impossible to "suspend ones disbelief" andjust accept that on Krypton people wear the "underwear on the outside"?
Honestly: no it's not. It's easy. The problem is not in the character but in the people. Superman is out of place, like you stated, and right now what works is demystified heroes, I-explained-everything-heroes. Bourne, Bond, batman, New Spidey, etc... Simple pattern to follow. They do it with Superman. So they are going to explain why a guy from Krypton would feel the need to wear tights!!! forbattle while taking the trunks out because it'sa bit "lame"?!?
Throughout the internet there are thousand of ideas illustrating a better suit than the one in MoS WHILE taking the trunks away AND keeping a red part, a red something. Superman's trunks are only a problem when yousee themas a problem. I just thought it was part of the suit, I don't need explanation, I don't need upgrade on the suit. Upgrade the character maybe but the suit? The ****ing suit?????
You'll notice that Batman is the champion of stealth, better than the US marines (!!) while having a cape of 3 meters long.... If I lower my suspension of disbelief to the level of Trunks non-acceptance, I can't accept the batcape.

[Zeerola]

Originally Posted by CLARKY

You'll notice that Batman is the champion of stealth, better than the US marines (!!) while having a cape of 3 meters long.... If I lower my suspension of disbelief to the level of Trunks non-acceptance, I can't accept the batcape.

That why the cape was given purpose in the Nolan movies. It was made of memory cloth so it could be used for flying. This could actually work if the cape was bigger and it looked impresive so people suspended their disbelief.

The red trunks look silly. I know that they are iconic and whatnot but still silly.

[redhawk23]

Originally Posted by StarvingArtist

This debate is going to devolve into an endless argument over wide abstractions and assumptions about Superman which I don't have time for. But what I will say... Is how is the marketing for Nolan's batman relevant at all? I'm confused, are you trying to argue that it's not the humanity and motivations of the characters that makes the audience care about a movie?

First of all it WAS marketed as a BW story first. Watch the trailers. The whole point of the freaking series was to feature Wayne's rise to becoming Batman. In Rises, batman is missing for the entire middle of the movie and the series even ends with him choosing to just live his life as Bruce Wayne. The crowds knew what the movies were about, and that's why they went. They arrived to see batman movies unlike anything they had seen prior; the elaborate backstory and the gritty real world setting being the hooks. Special effects and ass kicking mean little if you're not invested in the characters. If they were everything, then Batman & Robin would have won a f-ing Oscar.

Except even those parts sucked...

[StarvingArtist]

Originally Posted by redhawk23

Except even those parts sucked...

Touché

[GregoryGruesome]

I had a thought. In regards to going back to the traditional suit after MOS... What if he (Clark) makes some changes to the suit to make it look less alien and more earthly after the events of MOS. I mean, from the set pics Zod wears a suit very similar to Clark's, so maybe he redesigns it to be something similar? Trunks and all... I dunno, just a though I had this afternoon.

I do like the new suit, granted. I was just musing.

[Glassjaw]

Without having seen the costume in action, I think its gone down well enough with those who've seen the set pictures to not have to revert back to the trunks. And the better the film is, the more forgiving people will be about costume or story changes.

That said, it seems like every super hero costume gets updated or tweaked in some way come the sequel, so I'm sure if we get MOS2, I think we could see more changes.

[sf2]

Originally Posted by Glassjaw

Without having seen the costume in action, I think its gone down well enough with those who've seen the set pictures to not have to revert back to the trunks. And the better the film is, the more forgiving people will be about costume or story changes.

That said, it seems like every super hero costume gets updated or tweaked in some way come the sequel, so I'm sure if we get MOS2, I think we could see more changes.

inedde. but the key word is "the BETTER the film is" if the film just a 'regular' superhero film, it will get whacked severely for all those changes.

[spidermanJLA!~]

[Kal-El.9859]

haven't you guys heard?? This is the most disappointing film of 2012....and EVER!!!

smh Yahoo!

[StarvingArtist]

Poster would have been more effective if it had been shot from the back with Superman's hands cuffed behind him. And even moreso if there were only a damn S emblem on the back of the cape.

[spidermanJLA!~]

I think that they wanted to flaunt the emblem.

[StarvingArtist]

Originally Posted by spidermanJLA!~

I think that they wanted to flaunt the emblem.

Of course they did. Which is why I said it would have been great if they had included the cape emblem. Nevermind about aesthetics, (even though it does look awesome) from a simple marketing point of view, having the cape emblem gives Superman more branding power from angles other then front view.