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Old 12-03-2012, 06:55 PM   #76
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

Well David Goyer did say he thinks if Heath had been alive it would have been a no brainer about whether or not Joker would be in the sequel.

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Old 12-03-2012, 07:05 PM   #77
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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I don't think there was a plan for a third film at that moment though.
There was. Nolan originally had planned a few basic elements for 3 Batman films in his head. The films weren't fully layed out but he did have a basic idea of what he wanted to do (a simple basic outline like "Movie 1: Do Batman's origin with this villain", "Movie 2: Do the Joker with this character arc", "Movie 3: Do [insert villain] with Joker coming back", etc.). Heck, some speculate Nolan originally had plans for more than just 3 films since when he was asked about Robin, he said something among the lines of "Bale is still portraying a young Batman so Robin won't appear for a few more films" and he said this after TDK came out.

Regardless, everything or at least almost everything of the things Nolan originally planned for TDKR had to be scrapped because he didn't want to reuse the Joker to honor Heath (since we know the Joker was part of TDKR's original story). This lead to TDKR as we know it.

I personally wished he would've continued with his original idea for the third film as opposed to changing it completely since I am one of the many fans that was heavily dissapointed with TDKR. I believe the film to have contradicted and ignored many things from BB and TDK and to have been a sub-par Batman flick. That's just my opinion.

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Old 12-03-2012, 07:28 PM   #78
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

Even though it would have been incredible to see Bale and Heath duke it out again as both Batman and the Joker respectively in TDKR, I'm still more than happy that we ended up with what we did with Bane being the main villain. The Batman/Joker dynamic was done so perfectly in TDK, that to have wished for more almost feels greedy.

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Old 12-03-2012, 07:43 PM   #79
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

Anyone else think TDKR would've had more of an open ending had Nolan went with his original plans for it? I'm not saying I fully buy into it but I do think it's a possibility.

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Old 12-03-2012, 07:54 PM   #80
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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The problem is that the outline Goyer talked about is from 2005, just in time for the release of Batman Begins. That concepts became the storyline of The Dark Knight. The first developments for Rises came shortly after The Dark Knight was released.

But speculation is fun.
What Goyer said at that moment:

"The next one would have Batman enlisting the aid of Gordon and [Harvey] Dent [a.k.a. Two-Face] in bringing down the Joker... but not killing him, which is a mistake they made in the first one. ... In the third, the Joker would go on trial, scarring Dent in the process.""

That comes from here.

Then at Comic Con 2008, Goyer said the following:

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However on the other hand, by the end of 2008, Nolan was just doing rough outlines for the story before doing Inception, but nothing worthwhile yet. He stated that if there wasn't something that would keep him invested, he wouldn't do it.

Could we have had the Joker in a third film? Perhaps if the circumnstances were different. Chris Nolan has stated that he works only one film at a time. As for Goyer, that's a different story.

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Old 12-03-2012, 08:43 PM   #81
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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There was. Nolan originally had planned a few basic elements for 3 Batman films in his head. The films weren't fully layed out but he did have a basic idea of what he wanted to do (a simple basic outline like "Movie 1: Do Batman's origin with this villain", "Movie 2: Do the Joker with this character arc", "Movie 3: Do [insert villain] with Joker coming back", etc.). Heck, some speculate Nolan originally had plans for more than just 3 films since when he was asked about Robin, he said something among the lines of "Bale is still portraying a young Batman so Robin won't appear for a few more films" and he said this after TDK came out.

Regardless, everything or at least almost everything of the things Nolan originally planned for TDKR had to be scrapped because he didn't want to reuse the Joker to honor Heath (since we know the Joker was part of TDKR's original story). This lead to TDKR as we know it.

I personally wished he would've continued with his original idea for the third film as opposed to changing it completely since I am one of the many fans that was heavily dissapointed with TDKR. I believe the film to have contradicted and ignored many things from BB and TDK and to have been a sub-par Batman flick. That's just my opinion.
Nolan didnt have any ideas for the third movie. It was Goyer who said Joker probably would have returned in some fashion. Which probably would have been a very small role.

The only thing he said was the Robin thing, about him appearing "not for a few more films". This was at the time of TDK when he really didnt think he was gonna want to come back for any more movies or have any ideas left in him. So he probably assumed WB would just continue the franchise without him, since Bale had another left in his contract.

There were no plans at all. Only immediately after TDK, Goyer came up with the idea of Bane for a villain. Otherwise any other plan was just Goyer talking about how BEFORE tdk's script, Dent would have been scarred in the 3rd movie. Obviously that was changed when they wrote the script for Dark Knight.

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Old 12-03-2012, 08:49 PM   #82
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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There was. Nolan originally had planned a few basic elements for 3 Batman films in his head. The films weren't fully layed out but he did have a basic idea of what he wanted to do (a simple basic outline like "Movie 1: Do Batman's origin with this villain", "Movie 2: Do the Joker with this character arc", "Movie 3: Do [insert villain] with Joker coming back", etc.). Heck, some speculate Nolan originally had plans for more than just 3 films since when he was asked about Robin, he said something among the lines of "Bale is still portraying a young Batman so Robin won't appear for a few more films" and he said this after TDK came out.

Regardless, everything or at least almost everything of the things Nolan originally planned for TDKR had to be scrapped because he didn't want to reuse the Joker to honor Heath (since we know the Joker was part of TDKR's original story). This lead to TDKR as we know it.

I personally wished he would've continued with his original idea for the third film as opposed to changing it completely since I am one of the many fans that was heavily dissapointed with TDKR. I believe the film to have contradicted and ignored many things from BB and TDK and to have been a sub-par Batman flick. That's just my opinion.
We have nothing that really points to Nolan having wanted to do more than three films, and Robin may not have even played a factor in the third film if it still had Joker in it. Most likely, Robin was placed into this film after Nolan decided to have Bruce Wayne finally let the cape and cowl go in the end.

I myself found TDKR to be a very well made film and my best of the trilogy, so I applaud Nolan for figuring out a way to end his trilogy with having to scrap any past ideas of Joker or what have you. My favorite film of the trilogy and my favorite CBM

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Old 12-03-2012, 09:06 PM   #83
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

Yeah, I think it's pretty clear that Goyer's original outlines for 2 and 3 were condensed into what became TDK because Nolan wanted to make a complete film, and not dangle Two-Face as sequel bait. When Goyer gave EW his trilogy outline in 2005, he definitely did not have the full vision of what TDK was going to be, seeing as the rise and fall of Harvey Dent is a big part of what makes that movie what it is.

Now, of course, if Heath had lived, we'd be in a tangent universe where The Joker returned in film 3, even if only for a cameo. Nolan just has too much precedent for wanting to work with the same people again to not at least write him a small part, especially considering how amazing he was in that role.

But I really, really doubt Nolan had a chance to give it much thought (he was knee-deep in post when Heath passed), nor do I believe there was any concrete plan about what film 3 was going to be prior to Goyer proposing Bane as the film's villain. The only thing I do believe is that there was an interest in doing Catwoman, which had been reported prior to TDK's release.

And I also think the rumors about the studio wanting The Riddler are absolutely true. There were just way too many reports for there not to have been some buzz about that, and it makes total sense if it was coming from WB all along.

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Old 12-03-2012, 09:08 PM   #84
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

If Heath were still alive and Joker was in Rises it would been a much more epic conclusion to the dark knight trilogy.

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Old 12-03-2012, 09:39 PM   #85
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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That's awesome. A couple months ago, I had a theory about if Joker were in TDKR had Heath lived:

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Here's my idea if the Joker were to be a part of TDKR:

Go by the canon in the TDKR novel, where Joker is the only inmate still locked up in Arkham, for a number of reasons. However, a bunch of his goons are locked up in Blackgate. When Bane releases the prisoners, a bunch of Joker's men overtake Arkham and release him. The Joker and his thugs pretty much set up shop in the Narrows as their turf. Bane ignores them, as he doesn't consider Joker to be much of a threat to them since he's planning on destroying Gotham anyway. Joker amasses an army of thugs and on the last day before the bomb goes off, they march on city hall and go up against Bane's army and the cops. Joker is nowhere to be found. After Talia reveals herself and Bane is about to shoot Batman, Joker shows up and blasts Bane with a shotgun (instead of having Catwoman blast him with the Batpod). Bane is still alive, but barely. Instead, Joker plays with him, taking off his mask and asking him "How did you get those scars?" Bane dies. Joker turns to Batman and says, "I couldn't let him kill you! We're destined to do this forever, remember?" Fed up with everything, Batman just knocks him out and ties him up with the rope that Bane had, leaving him for the cops. Catwoman then shows up on the Batpod and everything happens as it did.

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Old 12-03-2012, 09:55 PM   #86
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

It's without doubt the film three we all thought we were going to get based off what Goyer said in 2005 was the third act of film two, and I think that decision still stands as the correct one whether Ledger had lived or not. I know some feel short changed with the amount of Two-Face that we got but as far as I'm concerned it's the quality and not the quantity that matters, and ultimately from a story arc perspective it didn't really make sense for the rise and fall of Harvey Dent to span two movies.

What is interesting though is had that original plan come to fruition with Two-Face being the villain in a hypothetical film 3 whether the ending of the film would have remained the same. I read recently that Nolan and Goyer knew what the final scene of the entire story would be way back when they first started the project, which indicates that the plan all along was, depending on circumstances going their way, that Bruce was always set up to finish being Batman by story's end. In retrospect as much as I have problems with Rises I actually think the concept of the film works much better than a film three with Two-Face being the villain. I cannot see Dent being the adversary powerful enough to set in motion Batman's retirement.

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:28 PM   #87
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

In that case, I feel more appreciative that we at least got a Batman returning from a hiatus hence making him feel more of stuff of legend than just outright being around for just one year total as the threequel would've probably been right after TDK if Dent becomes Two-Face during Joker's trial.

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Old 12-04-2012, 12:42 AM   #88
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

I think in Goyer's original outline, The Joker had to play a big role in the third film since he was going to be on trial and scar Dent. You'd have the drama of Batman wanting to save Dent, but ultimately the true threat would have had to come down to The Joker and/or a new villain.

Ultimately, I'm glad we have a LOS bookended trilogy with a great big Joker/Dent story in the middle, as opposed to a LOS origin story followed two movies about The Joker and Two-Face. As is, each film marks a specific chapter in Bruce's life and has an overall greater scope and cyclical angle to it. In my mind, TDK represents Batman in his prime, as he deals with two of his most classic adversaries.

Goyer's original outline would have been better suited for a series that was going to simply end its run at the end of Year 1 and have the continuity continue under different directors.

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Old 12-04-2012, 01:37 AM   #89
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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I think in Goyer's original outline, The Joker had to play a big role in the third film since he was going to be on trial and scar Dent. You'd have the drama of Batman wanting to save Dent, but ultimately the true threat would have had to come down to The Joker and/or a new villain.

Ultimately, I'm glad we have a LOS bookended trilogy with a great big Joker/Dent story in the middle, as opposed to a LOS origin story followed two movies about The Joker and Two-Face. As is, each film marks a specific chapter in Bruce's life and has an overall greater scope and cyclical angle to it. In my mind, TDK represents Batman in his prime, as he deals with two of his most classic adversaries.

Goyer's original outline would have been better suited for a series that was going to simply end its run at the end of Year 1 and have the continuity continue under different directors.
I agree with this. My only complaint with the LOS resurgence is the potential with Talia that was ultimately wasted. I would have Bane and Talia leave Batman in some sort of death trap to watch as they go to destroy Gotham. It would have been awesome to see Bane, Talia and Barsad walk out of city hall together, the circle now complete. You could have Bruce with all his wits managing to escape, join up with Catwoman and chase them down with the Bat and Bat-pod. Obviously that is a basic idea, but had the final battle been extended a little, Talia could have had a worthwhile send off. Oh yeah, and re-cut her death scene while we are at it.

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Old 12-04-2012, 08:09 AM   #90
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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I personally wished he would've continued with his original idea for the third film as opposed to changing it completely since I am one of the many fans that was heavily dissapointed with TDKR. I believe the film to have contradicted and ignored many things from BB and TDK and to have been a sub-par Batman flick. That's just my opinion.
Completely agree. This movie for me will always be plan "B" and will be the weakest part of the trilogy.


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Old 12-04-2012, 09:53 AM   #91
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Completely agree. This movie for me will always be plan "B" and will be the weakest part of the trilogy.
But there even wasn't a... oh never mind.

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:22 AM   #92
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Plan B was fantastic then!

Wonder how amazing Plan C was....

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Old 12-04-2012, 10:52 AM   #93
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Completely agree. This movie for me will always be plan "B" and will be the weakest part of the trilogy.
Darn right.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:31 AM   #94
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

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I personally wished he would've continued with his original idea for the third film as opposed to changing it completely since I am one of the many fans that was heavily dissapointed with TDKR. I believe the film to have contradicted and ignored many things from BB and TDK and to have been a sub-par Batman flick. That's just my opinion.
I don't disagree with your opinion of the films, but I think that fans that were dissatisfied with TDKR are in the minority.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:35 AM   #95
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Plan B was fantastic then!

Wonder how amazing Plan C was....
Haha no kidding eh?

As cool as it would have been to have more movies with Ledger, i prefer the route they took with this one. Another Joker, Two-Face movie would have felt repetitive for me since it would be 2 movies in a row. Just a reversal, with Two-Face as the lead villain. I like a nice contrast. It was the reason why i didnt want Riddler for Batman 3. If it wasn't going to be Bane/Talia with Catwoman then a movie with just Penguin or Hugo Strange/Catwoman (Prey) would have been my choice.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:44 AM   #96
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As a matter of fact if TDKR was set a year after TDK with Bats still chased by the cops , i would have went with the Prey storyline.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:45 AM   #97
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Default Re: A theory about an alternate TDKR with the Joker

I can't help but think what role Heath would have gotten in Inception, had he been around for it. Maybe even the Leo role?

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:50 AM   #98
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As a matter of fact if TDKR was set a year after TDK with Bats still chased by the cops , i would have went with the Prey storyline.
Sounds better then what we got.

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:51 AM   #99
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I can't help but think what role Heath would have gotten in Inception, had he been around for it. Maybe even the Leo role?
Wasnt it him then James Franco that were supposed to be Arthur? Then JGL took it?

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Old 12-04-2012, 11:56 AM   #100
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Wasnt it him then James Franco that were supposed to be Arthur? Then JGL took it?
I haven't heard that before, but damn, any way you look at it, the role would have gone to a fantastic actor.

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