Kurse!

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

no sorry, I've not seen anything that looks like a big elf, so it seems like he's not there, so he must be up to other things on behalf of Malekith (and I'm not speculating what or why, just noting he doesn't appear to be there in either incarnation, even if he was there as Algrim seems like he should have stepped in to help Malekith with Thor some in those scenes)



AAA tweeted once or twice as having a tough week playing Kurse in November mainly but that appeared to be all indoor filming. I wonder if he is borrowing Mark's CGI pajamas.

I agree. Can we be for sure that that thor and malekith fight is at the end of the movie? Even if not, who's to say they won't film scenes after, that take place before that? See what I mean? Maybe Algrim is "dead" at the time of the thor and malekith fight. And Kurse fights thor somewhere else. Maybe they filmed thor fighting kurse already, but that scene will be inserted deeper into the film possibly?

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I agree. Can we be for sure that that thor and malekith fight is at the end of the movie? Even if not, who's to say they won't film scenes after, that take place before that? See what I mean? Maybe Algrim is "dead" at the time of the thor and malekith fight. And Kurse fights thor somewhere else. Maybe they filmed thor fighting kurse already, but that scene will be inserted deeper into the film possibly?

or Algrim could be doing Malekith's dirty work elsewhere. It's definitely waaayyy too confusing to figure out definitively when that particular fight places in the film at this point. I did wonder if Thor's hair was a bit shorter in those scenes than in the Bourne Woods (if so that might indicate timing) but it's too close to say for sure. Might get more of a clue when a trailer comes out, hopefully.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I agree. Can we be for sure that that thor and malekith fight is at the end of the movie? Even if not, who's to say they won't film scenes after, that take place before that? See what I mean? Maybe Algrim is "dead" at the time of the thor and malekith fight. And Kurse fights thor somewhere else. Maybe they filmed thor fighting kurse already, but that scene will be inserted deeper into the film possibly?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Greenwich scenes occupy different places/times in the movie.....if it follows the Simonson saga, as I strongly suspect it does, Lorelei Jane probably gets abducted at the university by Malekith fairly early in the movie, but the climax might warrant a return to Earth to do some planet-saving foofaraw or other, and the Thor-Malekith throw-down becomes the epic last battle.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I wouldn't be surprised if the Greenwich scenes occupy different places/times in the movie.....if it follows the Simonson saga, as I strongly suspect it does, Lorelei Jane probably gets abducted at the university by Malekith fairly early in the movie, but the climax might warrant a return to Earth to do some planet-saving foofaraw or other, and the Thor-Malekith throw-down becomes the epic last battle.

I am hoping that more than 50% of this movie will be in different realms

[Hunter Rider]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

he's actually 4 times as strong, just correcting that piccture, which im sure you know. But as I said, I wouldn't mind if they don't change his appearance at all. I know his costume is over the top, but I think he'll look cool

I agree they don't need to change his look much but I imagine the colours will be toned down a bit.

[elizah72]

From the "news" thread...

Mephisto (274)
http://marvel.com/universe/Mephisto

I didn't realize this guy had been used so much in the comics. any chance he could be the "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself" ? or someone with the power to change Algrim to Kurse?

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

From the "news" thread...

Mephisto (274)
http://marvel.com/universe/Mephisto

I didn't realize this guy had been used so much in the comics. any chance he could be the "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself" ? or someone with the power to change Algrim to Kurse?

FWIW, that Marvel entry says that he has matter manipulation among his powers.

[sabetoonth]

Unless Ghost Rider's rights have reverted he's at Fox (I think its Fox)

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by sabetoonth

Unless Ghost Rider's rights have reverted he's at Fox (I think its Fox)

Sony/Columbia.
But neither GR movie has a character officially named "Mephisto." Peter Fonda played the more traditionally-named "Mephistopheles" in the first GR film, so the comic-book character could belong to any studio at this point --- we have know way of knowing.

It's also worth pointing out that in the Infinity Gauntlet saga, Mephisto plays the role that "The Other" does in the Avengers movie --- i.e., Thanos' herald/mouthpiece.

[metaphysician]

While its moot, actually, no, I don't think Mephisto would actually be able to create Kurse. While the exact power tiers are different in the movies than in the comics, they are still largely proportional. And in the comics? Mephisto is not powerful enough to create someone who can kick Thor's ass. Mephisto *himself* is only powerful enough to usually stalemate; if Kurse were loosed in Mephisto's realm, he'd rampage and likely be unstoppable until Mephisto wised up and dimension dumped him somewhere else.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

While its moot, actually, no, I don't think Mephisto would actually be able to create Kurse. While the exact power tiers are different in the movies than in the comics, they are still largely proportional. And in the comics? Mephisto is not powerful enough to create someone who can kick Thor's ass. Mephisto *himself* is only powerful enough to usually stalemate; if Kurse were loosed in Mephisto's realm, he'd rampage and likely be unstoppable until Mephisto wised up and dimension dumped him somewhere else.

Thanks. Good to know! Now we have a better sense of the power required to create Kurse.

[jaqua99]

exactly. I mean, the beyonder created Kurse. Since there will be no beyonder, I am still thinking it will be surtur

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by elizah72

From the "news" thread...

Mephisto (274)
http://marvel.com/universe/Mephisto

I didn't realize this guy had been used so much in the comics. any chance he could be the "shadowy enemy that predates the universe itself" ? or someone with the power to change Algrim to Kurse?

Sony owns Mephisto. He's apart of Ghost riders universe even though he gets used all the time as the great bady of the Marvel universe. He all ready appeared twice in the Ghost rider movies. He appeared as Mephistopheles in Ghost rider and appeared as Roarke in Ghost rider spirit of Vengeance.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

exactly. I mean, the beyonder created Kurse. Since there will be no beyonder, I am still thinking it will be surtur

I think the Cosmic Cube will be the beyonder substitute to turn Algrim into Kurse. Since in the comics the power of the cosmic cubes come from a rift that allows the cubes to siphon power from the Beyonders universe.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Cosmic_Cube

The Cosmic Cubes are items that control matter and energy, answering to the will of the sentient beings that use them. They require practice to be used properly, but a skillful user can alter all reality to answer to its thought, granting anything they desire.
Most Cosmic Cubes are cube-shaped matrices. However, similar objects with different shapes are known as Cosmic Containment Units.

Sentient beings wanting to create a Cosmic Cube must generate a force field to open a rift to another dimension inhabited by the Beyonders, allowing the extra-dimensional energy to filter through the rift. When entering the Earth's dimension, the energies can be held in a matrix, and the force itself would shape the matrix into a perfect cube. It would also provide the Cube with its almost-unlimited power.

A Cube would eventually develop its own intelligence, commonly influenced by the beings who had manipulated it. Mephisto has postulated that the Cubes are hosts to a semi-sentient will and that, even in Cube form, they can choose how they want to be used, and deny certain wishes. Mephisto also has proposed that a billion-sentient universally-linked will could overcome this problem, and that the Cubes could be as powerful as the Infinity Gems.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by Smashlilman

Sony owns Mephisto. He's apart of Ghost riders universe even though he gets used all the time as the great bady of the Marvel universe. He all ready appeared twice in the Ghost rider movies. He appeared as Mephistopheles in Ghost rider and appeared as Roarke in Ghost rider spirit of Vengeance.




I think the Cosmic Cube will be the beyonder substitute to turn Algrim into Kurse. Since in the comics the power of the cosmic cubes come from a rift that allows the cubes to siphon power from the Beyonders universe.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Cosmic_Cube

could be. but its too much avengers related stuff. I'd prefer it to stay to thor lure.

[Smashlilman]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

could be. but its too much avengers related stuff. I'd prefer it to stay to thor lure.

It doesn't have to come off as Avengers related. We know that Thor came to get loki and the cube. So that the cube is going to have some sort of role in Thor 2. It won't be as big as the roll it played in Captain America: The First Avenger or The Avengers but it will play a roll.

Now we know that the Beyonder creates Kurse and the Cosmic cube has connections to the Beyonder. I thinks its safe to amusing that when Algrim dies or is on deaths door someone one or something may used the power of the cube to resurrect Algrim as Kurse.

The cosmic cube may not be the main The MacGuffin but it will play a minor roll.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by Smashlilman

Sony owns Mephisto. He's apart of Ghost riders universe even though he gets used all the time as the great bady of the Marvel universe. He all ready appeared twice in the Ghost rider movies. He appeared as Mephistopheles in Ghost rider and appeared as Roarke in Ghost rider spirit of Vengeance.




I think the Cosmic Cube will be the beyonder substitute to turn Algrim into Kurse. Since in the comics the power of the cosmic cubes come from a rift that allows the cubes to siphon power from the Beyonders universe.
http://marvel.wikia.com/Cosmic_Cube

Again: Sony never used the exact name "Mephisto" in the GR movies.
"Mephistopheles" (the name they actually used) is a "public domain" name referring to an actual being from mythology; "Mephisto" is a trademarked name belonging to a specific Marvel supervillain. That name is, afawk, still available.

As far as the Tesseract: yes, the Cube could very well be the thing that converts Algrim to Kurse. Question is, who winds up with possession of it in this movie? Thor brought it home to Asgard at the end of TA1, and it's safe to say that Odin will do everything in his power to make sure it doesn't get back into Loki's hands. And it's also pretty darn safe to say that Odin certainly isn't going to be the one who transforms Algrim.

Could fall into the wrong hands again, but like Jaqua, I believe the Tesseract has run its course for now. I think Odin will secure it almost immediately in this movie, and that's the last we'll see of it for the next couple of years, at least.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Again: Sony never used the exact name "Mephisto" in the GR movies.
"Mephistopheles" (the name they actually used) is a "public domain" name referring to an actual being from mythology; "Mephisto" is a trademarked name belonging to a specific Marvel supervillain. That name is, afawk, still available.

As far as the Tesseract: yes, the Cube could very well be the thing that converts Algrim to Kurse. Question is, who winds up with possession of it in this movie? Thor brought it home to Asgard at the end of TA1, and it's safe to say that Odin will do everything in his power to make sure it doesn't get back into Loki's hands. And it's also pretty darn safe to say that Odin certainly isn't going to be the one who transforms Algrim.

Could fall into the wrong hands again, but like Jaqua, I believe the Tesseract has run its course for now. I think Odin will secure it almost immediately in this movie, and that's the last we'll see of it for the next couple of years, at least.

That's exactly what I am thinking. The tesseract is getting old. The avengers centered around the tesseract, so it would be an avengers related thing. Again, just because the cube and beyonder are related, doesn't mean they will be in the MCU, and doesn't mean the tesseract will change Algrim. I'm with you, i've seen enough of the tesseract. It's phase 2 now. Aside from characters, lets see something new

[cherokeesam]

Here's another thought about the Cube being the artifact that changes Algrim: maybe it's Algrim who changes *himself* with the Cube.

It's a fairly mundane solution, but one that's a lot cheaper for the studio bean-counters: instead of introducing (and casting) a whole 'nother character with godlike powers to create Kurse, and instead of letting the Cube fall into enemy hands yet again, why not just have Algrim try to take the Cube from Odin, and accidentally/intentionally wind up getting morphed into Super Darkelf?

There's that report of AAA having a scene with Odin and Frigga, and Frigga (allegedly) dying at some point; so maybe Algrim makes it to the Asgardian throne room, confronts Odin and kills Frigga and/or The Allfather, and takes the Cube (either for himself, or at the behest of Malekith, or even Thanos if he shows up after all). But the power is too great for him, and he winds up becoming a twisted Hulk-like monster.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Here's another thought about the Cube being the artifact that changes Algrim: maybe it's Algrim who changes *himself* with the Cube.

It's a fairly mundane solution, but one that's a lot cheaper for the studio bean-counters: instead of introducing (and casting) a whole 'nother character with godlike powers to create Kurse, and instead of letting the Cube fall into enemy hands yet again, why not just have Algrim try to take the Cube from Odin, and accidentally/intentionally wind up getting morphed into Super Darkelf?

There's that report of AAA having a scene with Odin and Frigga, and Frigga (allegedly) dying at some point; so maybe Algrim makes it to the Asgardian throne room, confronts Odin and kills Frigga and/or The Allfather, and takes the Cube (either for himself, or at the behest of Malekith, or even Thanos if he shows up after all). But the power is too great for him, and he winds up becoming a twisted Hulk-like monster.

*That* is a very creative idea! I really like it! You're right, it keeps things simpler by having an object, rather than a new character, handle the development.

With the caveat that I am relatively ignorant about Odin's powers, it seems to me that this idea helps address another logistical problem: how do you keep incredibly powerful Odin from solving all the problems in 5 minutes? Maybe there's blowback from the cube when Algrim tries to activate it, leading to Odin being incapacitated or seriously limited for some stretch of the film. If this doesn't make sense for Odin's abilities, then nevermind.

We'd need another McGuffin, though, because when the Red Skull actually touched the Tesseract, he went to another dimension. Here the plot needs Algrim to stay in this dimension and become Kurse. So maybe he doesn't touch it directly (maybe it's still in the holder from the end of The Avengers?), only tries to manipulate it.

Another wrinkle I thought of is why Odin would have the thing out of his vault. But it seems like he could have brought it out due to the attack, if that's what's happening.

The only other question is the sequence of events such that Algrim can successfully take the Tesseract out of Odin's hands. Don't have an immediate answer on that, but I suppose it's possible.

Thanks for sharing the idea!

[elizah72]

Possibly, but my next question would be if all someone has to do to turn into a "Kurse" type powerful being is use the Cube a certain way then why wouldn't Loki have done that to himself with all his knowledge of it, to make himself powerful enough to not only take over the Earth, defeat Thor and the Avengers, and at least be a strong challenge to Thanos if he were to come after him?

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Possibly, but my next question would be if all someone has to do to turn into a "Kurse" type powerful being is use the Cube a certain way then why wouldn't Loki have done that to himself with all his knowledge of it, to make himself powerful enough to not only take over the Earth, defeat Thor and the Avengers, and at least be a strong challenge to Thanos if he were to come after him?

That's a good point. I'll take a stab at responding:

Marvel material on cosmic cubes say that they can become sentient and possibly can have some influence on how and what power is used. There's also the idea that the cubes tend to be influenced by the wielders. That would suggest that Algrim would be more interested in becoming Kurse'd, not so much for Loki. But I concede that second argument is weaker.

The last idea I have is that Loki did not appear to interact with the Tesseract so directly. Maybe Algrim tries to manipulate it directly.

Of course, this idea is a departure from the original material. That has Thor and Algrim fighting (in Svartalfheim), Malekith opening up the pit of lava, Algrim injured, and then the transformation occurs.

[M-2]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Possibly, but my next question would be if all someone has to do to turn into a "Kurse" type powerful being is use the Cube a certain way then why wouldn't Loki have done that to himself with all his knowledge of it, to make himself powerful enough to not only take over the Earth, defeat Thor and the Avengers, and at least be a strong challenge to Thanos if he were to come after him?

Mmm well in MCU they made it quite clear, that you shouldn't be touching the cube with your bare hand... We all seen what happened with Red Skull when he did it? So im just guessing that the Cube is very unpredictable when someone actually holds it.

So maybe Loki knew the cube can give you more power but he didn't want to risk it, because the cube might not respond as expected..

[cherokeesam]

Here's my theory on how the Cube works in the MCU. I *think* this is what Marvel Studios intended, because I find there to be too many coincidences otherwise. Check this out:

In the MCU, who have we seen activate the Cube, successfully or no, to at least some degree? Answers:

Loki
Red Skull
Arnim Zola
Selvig (when he's possessed by Loki)
Hawkeye (when he's possessed by Loki)
in theory, Thanos (since he tasked Loki with bringing it to him, and since it's always been iconically associated with the character, along with the Gauntlet)

And who *hasn't* been able to, or hasn't tried, to activate the Cube while it was in their possession?

An unnamed Viking king, who was entombed with the Cube in Norway (beginning of CATFA)
Howard Stark
Nick Fury
Thor (carries it in a case back to Asgard at the end of Avengers)
Selvig (when he *wasn't* possessed by Loki), and all the scientists at the JDEM lab at the start of Avengers
Odin, in theory: In CATFA, Red Skull hints that the Cube would be the "jewel in Odin's Treasury" --- so why doesn't Odin seem to use its power himself?

A quick glance at that list tells us what?
That only evil people can manipulate the Cube.

Ergo: the Tesseract is, itself, an evil object.

That would explain how/why Odin hasn't just used it to wish all the bad stuff away, and why Algrim would be able to activate it.

[elizah72]

Selvig: The Tesseract can't fight... but you can't protect against yourself.

I take that to mean that the lure of such great power will make certain people want to possess that power, in some cases for evil purposes, but it isn't necessarily an evil object in itself.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Here's my theory on how the Cube works in the MCU. . . .

the Tesseract is, itself, an evil object.

That would explain how/why Odin hasn't just used it to wish all the bad stuff away, and why Algrim would be able to activate it.

Does one have to be sufficiently powerful/evil to be able to use it? Algrim is just one of the soldiers, albeit a fairly strong one.

Your theory has merit, though I might modify it to say people susceptible to or influenced by evil use it. Selvig isn't good/then evil/then good, for example.

And maybe, to some extent, the Tesseract is using all these people instead of the other way around.

I don't think any of the "good" people you named have tried to use the Tesseract and failed (whereas lots of people have tried to use Mjolnir and failed, for example). They simply do not make the attempt.

(To pick a nit: the Viking king was not entombed with the Tesseract. The Tesseract actually was in the carving of Yggdrasil, off to the side of where the tomb was. But your point remains valid.)

Another quibble: if the Tesseract is so evil, why leave it on Midgard for 1000 years among all the rubes?