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Old 12-05-2012, 01:22 PM   #426
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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I think the whole Widow-Bucky thing from the comics will be completely absent from this movie. I think Widow will be aware of the WS project, but without knowing that it's Bucky; but will have no "hands-on" experience with him.

I hope you're right about that. If they dropped the whole bit where Natasha is over 90 years old and some sort of Super Soldier knock off, I'd be a happy camper.

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Old 12-05-2012, 01:38 PM   #427
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

I would be a very unhappy camper

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Old 12-05-2012, 03:39 PM   #428
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

I could see them saying maybe she's older than she looks, was involved in some cold war espionage, and ran accross Winter Soldier once or twice.

But her being in her 90's and having fought in WWII ain't gunna happen, unfortunately

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Old 12-05-2012, 03:49 PM   #429
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

Natasha got started as a young kid, 20 years ago, tail end of the cold war. If Winter Soldier was active during the cold war, it's every inch possible that they've met, trained together, etc. Natasha would view him as a living legend of sorts.

Yeah, no super soldier Tasha please.

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Old 12-05-2012, 05:24 PM   #430
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

Black Widow involved during Cold War ... Sure

Black Widow involved during WWII ... I sure hope not

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Old 12-05-2012, 05:27 PM   #431
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I would be *barely* willing to tolerate a Natasha who is slow aging, *if*:

1. Its tied to the Infinity Formula and thus used to make certain other people slow aging

2. The plot is actually good

3. The movie makes clear that she is *not* as good as she is because she's older than she looks, she's as good as she is, because she's as good as she is. Slow aging just means she's still at her peak.

Basically, above all else, I don't want to see the MCU destroying the concept of the Badass Normal.

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Old 12-05-2012, 08:00 PM   #432
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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Basically, above all else, I don't want to see the MCU destroying the concept of the Badass Normal.
So much this. Of all the characters in Avengers, a big reason why I loved Clint and Natasha the most was because they're normal. No enhancements, no super powers, just amazing agents with these awesome skills. Giving Natasha that agelessness takes away from her awesomeness, IMO. Even if the serum doesn't enhance her abilities at all, it means she's had decades worth of training to do that instead, which really turns me off. I would definitely prefer that whole subplot and her involvement with the Winter Soldier be left out. Having her be a super spy with knowledge of him would be enough.

MCU seems to borrow elements from many different universes, and this is a case that I really hope they don't follow 616.

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Old 12-05-2012, 10:24 PM   #433
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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Natasha got started as a young kid, 20 years ago, tail end of the cold war. If Winter Soldier was active during the cold war, it's every inch possible that they've met, trained together, etc. Natasha would view him as a living legend of sorts.
So would she then act like Coulson with how he was with Cap?

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Old 12-05-2012, 10:26 PM   #434
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

Winter Soldier was also active after the cold war.

You could say that he and Black Widow had met ten years ago, when she was 20.

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Old 12-05-2012, 11:39 PM   #435
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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So much this. Of all the characters in Avengers, a big reason why I loved Clint and Natasha the most was because they're normal. No enhancements, no super powers, just amazing agents with these awesome skills. Giving Natasha that agelessness takes away from her awesomeness, IMO. Even if the serum doesn't enhance her abilities at all, it means she's had decades worth of training to do that instead, which really turns me off. I would definitely prefer that whole subplot and her involvement with the Winter Soldier be left out. Having her be a super spy with knowledge of him would be enough.

MCU seems to borrow elements from many different universes, and this is a case that I really hope they don't follow 616.

I completely agree. In their drive to make characters more special, writers often end up making them less special. There is so much emphasis on making characters "relatable" to the audience now, but who is easier to relate to than a hero who is completely human? The fact that Natasha and Clint have no superhuman powers and yet they go out and fight alongside gods and monsters makes them the most heroic and interesting members of the team, in my opinion. Changing that, unnecessarily adding on enhancements to their abilities, detracts from their appeal instead of enhancing it.

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Old 12-06-2012, 12:54 AM   #436
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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Black Widow involved during Cold War ... Sure

Black Widow involved during WWII ... I sure hope not
I agree. And I want her as a super soldier! Why can't a female be a super soldier?! And I certainly want her with Bucky.

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Old 12-06-2012, 05:14 AM   #437
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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I agree. And I want her as a super soldier! Why can't a female be a super soldier?! And I certainly want her with Bucky.
It's not that a woman can't be a super soldier, just that the basis for Natasha being one is so ridiculously contrived.


Natasha has been around since 1964. For about 99% of that time, she showed no sign of possessing any of the traits of someone who took the super soldier serum. She is only as strong and agile as any top athlete, nothing more. You can't even point to slowed aging because all superheroes appear to age slowly simply because of story constraints within the comics universe. If Natasha really had any enhancements, if she was as old as she's supposed to be, one would have expected all that to have been apparent early on in her career.


Not having superpowers didn't make Natasha less important than other heroes. Actually, it highlighted her bravery that she went toe-to-toe with heavy-hitters with just her very human physical prowess and her tactical skills. Retroactively making her a super soldier just does not make sense and actually denigrates Natasha's long history as a heroine.

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Old 12-06-2012, 05:22 AM   #438
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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I completely agree. In their drive to make characters more special, writers often end up making them less special. There is so much emphasis on making characters "relatable" to the audience now, but who is easier to relate to than a hero who is completely human? The fact that Natasha and Clint have no superhuman powers and yet they go out and fight alongside gods and monsters makes them the most heroic and interesting members of the team, in my opinion. Changing that, unnecessarily adding on enhancements to their abilities, detracts from their appeal instead of enhancing it.
i disgree. for me thor was more relatable than any of the other avengers, including clint and natasha.

it's nothing to do with powers. just ignore all that. the key is what makes these superhumans "human". and thors plight, his struggles with his beloved brother who is causing so much pain, is much more compelling and "human" than any of the other characters. anyone with a sibling can relate to that. it's like your younger brother gets into a fight, do you back him up even though you know he started it? or do you turn against him?

when people look at these characters, these superheroes, and all they see are their amazing powers? they're doing it wrong. that isn't the point of marvel superheroes.

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Old 12-06-2012, 06:57 AM   #439
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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i disgree. for me thor was more relatable than any of the other avengers, including clint and natasha.

it's nothing to do with powers. just ignore all that. the key is what makes these superhumans "human". and thors plight, his struggles with his beloved brother who is causing so much pain, is much more compelling and "human" than any of the other characters. anyone with a sibling can relate to that. it's like your younger brother gets into a fight, do you back him up even though you know he started it? or do you turn against him?

when people look at these characters, these superheroes, and all they see are their amazing powers? they're doing it wrong. that isn't the point of marvel superheroes.
What an incredibly off-the-mark observation. Superpowers are exactly the point of Marvel superheroes. And the genre in general.

Yes, I get what you're saying about personality being the thing that makes the character relatable, and it's absolutely true that Stan and Company made that their trademark --- hell, even Silver Surfer is relatable to any reader in terms of his personality ("everybody in the universe hates me because I'm so much better than they are; and hey, my boss really sucks").

Bux Xeno is right on the money when she says that it's Clint and Tasha's "mundane" humanity that makes them superheroes....that they're "muggles" who dare to mingle with gods and monsters. Giving either of them true superpowers would be a great disservice to who they are.

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Old 12-06-2012, 07:02 AM   #440
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i'm not suggesting giving them superpowers. that would be stupid.

but i still stand by my point that the whole point of marvels superheroes, is what they are if you strip away their superpowers. they are for the most part, people with real human characteristics and problems and lives. that is what the main appeal should be with these characters, not the superpowers, but the idea that these are real people who just so happen to have superpowers. that's how i've always thought about marvels characters. less so dc, who are for the most part less human and relatable and more mythic and symbolic.

so clint and natasha may have been regular humans fighting with these gods and super soldiers and gamma monsters. but at the end of the day, like i said, thor's plight with his brother is more human and universally relatable than natasha's plight of trying to make up for her "red ledger". how many of us have killed people before and are trying to redeem ourselves, you know what i mean?

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:23 AM   #441
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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It's not that a woman can't be a super soldier, just that the basis for Natasha being one is so ridiculously contrived.


Natasha has been around since 1964. For about 99% of that time, she showed no sign of possessing any of the traits of someone who took the super soldier serum. She is only as strong and agile as any top athlete, nothing more. You can't even point to slowed aging because all superheroes appear to age slowly simply because of story constraints within the comics universe. If Natasha really had any enhancements, if she was as old as she's supposed to be, one would have expected all that to have been apparent early on in her career.


Not having superpowers didn't make Natasha less important than other heroes. Actually, it highlighted her bravery that she went toe-to-toe with heavy-hitters with just her very human physical prowess and her tactical skills. Retroactively making her a super soldier just does not make sense and actually denigrates Natasha's long history as a heroine.
Fair point. Maybe just the aging side of the Infinity Formula. I'm really keen the two having their past in the comics.

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Old 12-08-2012, 07:27 AM   #442
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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Bux Xeno is right on the money when she says that it's Clint and Tasha's "mundane" humanity that makes them superheroes....that they're "muggles" who dare to mingle with gods and monsters. Giving either of them true superpowers would be a great disservice to who they are.
That's a perfect quote. I'm not saying they're personally more relatable than Thor because they're human, but making them more than human would take something very special away from them.

Quote:
Natasha has been around since 1964. For about 99% of that time, she showed no sign of possessing any of the traits of someone who took the super soldier serum. She is only as strong and agile as any top athlete, nothing more. You can't even point to slowed aging because all superheroes appear to age slowly simply because of story constraints within the comics universe. If Natasha really had any enhancements, if she was as old as she's supposed to be, one would have expected all that to have been apparent early on in her career.


Not having superpowers didn't make Natasha less important than other heroes. Actually, it highlighted her bravery that she went toe-to-toe with heavy-hitters with just her very human physical prowess and her tactical skills. Retroactively making her a super soldier just does not make sense and actually denigrates Natasha's long history as a heroine.
This exactly. The whole ageless super soldier schtick wasn't part of her original character but something that was retconned in later. It's in the comics now but the comics also have years to tell a story while the movies have 2.5 hours max, so I feel like trying to add this in won't only lessen her character for all the reasons already stated, but just add unneeded confusion into a movie that ultimately should have nothing to do with her.

MCU Clint is an assassin, which is nothing like his 616 counterpart who is staunchly against killing. Bucky was a scrawny teenage sidekick to Cap, again nothing like they made him in MCU, so why should Natasha's MCU history follow 616? Why can't she lose the 50 years of comics baggage and retcons and get a compelling MCU background that can appeal the the audience at large and not take anything away from the badass she has already been shown to be? Her past is clearly already different with how they had Clint spare her and bring her to SHIELD, but sets up for it's own interesting history for her both before and after that point. That I would love to see, but in their own movie where it belongs and would be given the attention it's due, not in a Captain America movie where giving Natasha lots of backstory would be out of place and take away from Steve, as well as the new characters they're trying to introduce.

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Old 12-08-2012, 07:53 AM   #443
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

So how do you all feel about Crossbones possibly being upgraded from henchman to lead villain?

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:00 AM   #444
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So how do you all feel about Crossbones possibly being upgraded from henchman to lead villain?
I don't see him as lead villain. I'm sure they're still using him as Lead Hench, while the actual villain leader has yet to be revealed. Zemo, Zola, or Lukin are the most likely choices there.

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Old 12-08-2012, 08:09 AM   #445
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^ Yep.

Crossbones has never been -to my knowledge- a shot-caller. It'd be such a massive departure to make him some kind of mastermind.

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:00 PM   #446
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

I think he should stay super badass henchmen.

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Old 12-08-2012, 03:58 PM   #447
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

But then couldn't Winter Soldier be used as the Lead villain for this film?
Have Crossbones be reporting to someone, but his doing all the dirty work.
And Zemo not actually coming into action in this film... Instead this film could reveal Zemo as simply a very successful engineer, who becomes a villain out of honor, duty and respect to his family name when he finds out Cap is alive. Makes it a priority to kill Cap, so he sends out Winter Soldier capture Cap. Kinda his own personal touch, given the history between the two.

When Winter Soldier fails, he sends out Crossbones, which could lead to a Winter Soldier vs Cap vs Crossbones scenario. Leaving WS and CB as the primary villains of this film, with Zemo as the man pulling the strings.

CAP 3, is where we get to see Zemo confronting Cap. Then we get Zemo as the primary villain.


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Old 12-08-2012, 09:50 PM   #448
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^ehhhhh

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Old 12-08-2012, 11:19 PM   #449
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 1

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But then couldn't Winter Soldier be used as the Lead villain for this film?
Have Crossbones be reporting to someone, but his doing all the dirty work.
And Zemo not actually coming into action in this film... Instead this film could reveal Zemo as simply a very successful engineer, who becomes a villain out of honor, duty and respect to his family name when he finds out Cap is alive. Makes it a priority to kill Cap, so he sends out Winter Soldier capture Cap. Kinda his own personal touch, given the history between the two.

When Winter Soldier fails, he sends out Crossbones, which could lead to a Winter Soldier vs Cap vs Crossbones scenario. Leaving WS and CB as the primary villains of this film, with Zemo as the man pulling the strings.

CAP 3, is where we get to see Zemo confronting Cap. Then we get Zemo as the primary villain.
I see Zemo ultimately being the one pulling the strings here, definitely, but I don't think he needs to be a shadow character being saved for Cap 3. The movie would work well enough with Zemo as the chief villain, Crossbones as the chief hench, and Winter Soldier as the reformed "villain" who has to be de-programmed by Cap 'n' Friends.

I'd rather reserve Cap 3 for Skully's inevitable return to the modern world.

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:09 AM   #450
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I would say that Winter Soldier will be the main villain, but answerable to Zemo/Lukin/???, who will be the true villain, but with less screentime.

In other words, Lukin/Zemo will be Palpitine, and Winter Soldier will be Vader. Similarly, I imagine Bucky's deprogramming happening fairly late in the movie.

Crossbones will be another Lukin/Zemo henchman, possibly his top henchman, but still 'below' Bucky.

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