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Old 12-07-2012, 01:13 PM   #351
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Regarding that, I have wondered before if what will be revealed is previous incarnations of Thor etc have been to Earth, (due to the whole Ragnarok thing), setting up the mythology in the MCU, but not necessarily THESE versions (or not so much). Based on Thor's behavior, if he's been to Earth it probably wasn't recently, due to his lack of savvy. But Loki on the other hand, I could see having been to Earth MANY times in recent past.
Yeah, I think that's the conceit they use to paper over different interpretations of the Asgardians over the 50 years of the books. So I guess they could say that. But it doesn't quite work, because they also have memories of their previous incarnations.

But maybe that could explain why Thor of myth is a redhead! lol

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:17 PM   #352
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Yeah, I think that's the conceit they use to paper over different interpretations of the Asgardians over the 50 years of the books. So I guess they could say that. But it doesn't quite work, because they also have memories of their previous incarnations.

But maybe that could explain why Thor of myth is a redhead! lol
they may not have those memories in MCU, if they change that a bit to explain why, for instance, no one remembers Loki is such a troublemaker.

I think in myths it says that everything gets destroyed and begins again, including Earth, so that's certainly not going to happen, with this scenario, unless Ragarok is successfully stopped in the MCU this time. But I wasnt sure... is it just the Asgardians that die in the comics or all beings in all 9 realms killed and everything starts again??

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:26 PM   #353
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they may not have those memories in MCU, if they change that a bit to explain why, for instance, no one remembers Loki is such a troublemaker.

I think in myths it says that everything gets destroyed and begins again, including Earth, so that's certainly not going to happen, with this scenario, unless Ragarok is successfully stopped in the MCU this time. But I wasnt sure... is it just the Asgardians that die in the comics or all beings in all 9 realms killed and everything starts again??
Well, the Asgardians do remember events from before the previous (several) Ragnarok(s). For example, Thor remembers all the ways in which Jane has exited the story over the years. In the JMS run, he has to remember all sorts of stuff (like who all his fellow Asgardians are) for the story to move forward at all. And kid Loki at least has dreams of his past actions.

You are right in that absolutely everything in Midgard and Asgard is destroyed in mythic Ragnaroek, and that two humans survive and build the world anew. I don't remember if the other 7 realms explicitly are destroyed as well, but I assume so. In theory, it could be an endless cycle, but I don't think the myths talk about it that way.

In the comics, Earth is never destroyed. Asgard always is. I don't know about the other 7 realms.

Anymore it seems like they are having a Ragnarok every few years. It's getting kind of tedious.

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:37 PM   #354
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Well, the Asgardians do remember events from before the previous (several) Ragnarok(s). For example, Thor remembers all the ways in which Jane has exited the story over the years. In the JMS run, he has to remember all sorts of stuff (like who all his fellow Asgardians are) for the story to move forward at all. And kid Loki at least has dreams of his past actions.

You are right in that absolutely everything in Midgard and Asgard is destroyed in mythic Ragnaroek, and that two humans survive and build the world anew. I don't remember if the other 7 realms explicitly are destroyed as well, but I assume so. In theory, it could be an endless cycle, but I don't think the myths talk about it that way.

In the comics, Earth is never destroyed. Asgard always is. I don't know about the other 7 realms.

Anymore it seems like they are having a Ragnarok every few years. It's getting kind of tedious.
again they could change the memory thing for MCU somehow, they would almost have to since again, no one seems to realize that Loki is a serious troublemaker up until Thor 1. Although I could see where Odin alone could know, and know he could have a part in Ragnarok, and is trying to change that this time around when he takes Loki in as a baby. to perhaps try to right past mistakes with Loki, and not being willing to kill an "innocent child" no matter who he is going to grow up to be.

and that's another thing, dont the comics have them take on adult forms when they come back? (such as with Lady Loki) Because of course we saw Loki and Thor as children in MCU, so that would indicate in MCU that someone may come back as adults (say Odin's grandparents) but then everyone else has to be actually born again (in this scenario, which I realize is different from the comics). It's a bit of a what came first the chicken or the egg, type concept.

BTW, has the Ragnarok cycle ever been successfully broken in the comics? The optimist in me thinks that the MCU might be the perfect time to do that story.

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Old 12-07-2012, 01:51 PM   #355
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again they could change the memory thing for MCU somehow, they would almost have to since again, no one seems to realize that Loki is a serious troublemaker up until Thor 1. Although I could see where Odin alone could know, and know he could have a part in Ragnarok, and is trying to change that this time around when he takes Loki in as a baby. to perhaps try to right past mistakes with Loki, and not being willing to kill an "innocent child" no matter who he is going to grow up to be.

and that's another thing, dont the comics have them take on adult forms when they come back? (such as with Lady Loki) Because of course we saw Loki and Thor as children in MCU, so that would indicate in MCU that someone may come back as adults (say Odin's grandparents) but then everyone else has to be actually born again (in this scenario, which I realize is different from the comics).
Hmm, this is starting to feel complicated. You're right; no one seems to realize Loki is a trouble maker, and also, they start out as children. So that suggests that in the MCU, the versions of Thor et al that we see are the "first run"-ha!-versions, before any Ragnaroks. Which brings us back to the goof with Thor saying he'd only been to Earth once before. So I think it's simpler to chalk it up to a goof.

Re: Lady Loki. That's from the JMS run. As I understand, the souls of all the Asgardians were placed in (mortal?) host bodies (maybe Odin was trying to prevent another Ragnarok? I think he did something like that at some point). Thor has to go around and retrieve all his countrymen and get them to the bodies they are supposed to have. That's why he really has to remember a lot of stuff from before the Ragnarok. Loki has put himself into Sif's body, but Thor somehow fails to recognize said body and accepts Lady Loki as the current incarnation of Loki. (Eventually everyone gets the right body back).

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BTW, has the Ragnarok cycle ever been successfully broken in the comics? The optimist in me thinks that the MCU might be the perfect time to do that story.
Yes. Somewhere along the line (maybe Odin knows and then tells Thor) it is revealed that all these Ragnaroks are being orchestrated by Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. Thor ultimately breaks the cycle. Jon started a thread over in the Thor Sequels forum about beasties to express his hope that the World Serpent would be on the docket for Thor3. I supposed the same thing you do above, that Thor would try to break the Ragnarok cycle, which would mean taking on Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. (He does not take on the World Serpent in that particular Ragnarok. So much for prophecy! lol)

Recently I found out that story line involves Rune King Thor, ie, where Thor has an even more insane amount of power than Odin has (like, insanity cubed). That seems like too far for them to reach for in the MCU, so now I'm skeptical they will do that story line.

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Old 12-07-2012, 02:20 PM   #356
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Of course they are borrowing aspects from some stories, other stories ignored or simply given a nod to, and then changing and making up completely new stuff for the MCU too, soo... they can do what they want to make it all make sense, I guess!

I think having a previous Ragnarok, prior to Loki and Thor's birth, with characters that help set up the Norse Myths in MCU, then having Odin know about stuff passed down from his father maybe, then that knowledge passes to Thor only as the new King - could possibly work. That keeps the stuff about knowing about Loki less complicated, I think. and we don't know what exactly is written in the Norse myths IN MCU about Ragnarok and Thor and Loki, or if the Asgardians would take it seriously if they ever read it. For instance...

Thor: Hey, Loki, did you know that the mortals think that father's horse came as a result of... well... read for yourself!

Loki: (reads) WHAT!?! I HATE Midgardians!!!!! I will crush them beneath my boot for spreading such filth about me!

Thor: and see this story says that to make some goddess laugh you tied a rope to a goat's beard and the other end to your... erm... (hands Loki other book) just read...

Loki: (reads, furious) SON OF A- !!!



But, seriously, I do think that knowledge of Ragnarok and who is who passing down by the king could work, but it still seems like a "goof" that Thor says that in Avengers, unfortunately. But the predecessors and Thor and Loki being seen to grow up would seem to mean if there was another successful Ragnarok, then the characters would have to go back to being babies/not born yet to start again, not stay as adult bodies. It would be a shame though too since I don't want to not have Chris or Tom playing those characters!

and also Odin refers to his father and his father's father in Thor 1, so again setting up a time prior to Thor and Loki, and in a post Ragnarok it seems like those characters would be returned to their physical forms as well to start again. I know it doesn't work that way in the comics, but to really make any sense I think it has to work that way, otherwise why don't those before Odin come back too? Very confusing!

Did you notice in the preview reviews, btw, no references to Valhalla warriors at all? Or Jane being possessed. Or Frigga dying. (which I am fine with, but just pointing out)


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Old 12-07-2012, 02:40 PM   #357
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Did you notice in the preview reviews, btw, no references to Valhalla warriors at all? Or Jane being possessed. Or Frigga dying. (which I am fine with, but just pointing out)
Well, the spoiler about the ship crashing into a palace was leaked in September, and now we have footage suggesting that, about 3 months later. So maybe it will be some future preview that will refer to these things (in another 1.5-2 months' time).

This footage also didn't say anything about any of the elements from the Simonson arc, which I found to be odd.

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:46 PM   #358
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Well, the spoiler about the ship crashing into a palace was leaked in September, and now we have footage suggesting that, about 3 months later. So maybe it will be some future preview that will refer to these things (in another 1.5-2 months' time).

This footage also didn't say anything about any of the elements from the Simonson arc, which I found to be odd.
well that's sort of the point, we have that tiny little tid bit confirmed in this footage and yet pretty much none of the whole slew of things Lawden said confirmed. other than Jane on Asgard, that is.

It occurred to me with the idea I had above about the King alone having knowledge of Ragnarok, and Loki's possible involvement in it, being passed down from father to son as the son becomes King (officially)... that opens up some interesting issues for Thor then in regards to his brother and possible "moral sacrifice" as well. Does he continue to try to change his brother back to the side of good and hope to stop Ragnarok that way (as I surmise could have been Odin's goal in taking Loki as a baby) or does he keep him locked up, or even kill him as a way of breaking the cycle?

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Old 12-07-2012, 06:58 PM   #359
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well that's sort of the point, we have that tiny little tid bit confirmed in this footage and yet pretty much none of the whole slew of things Lawden said confirmed. other than Jane on Asgard, that is.
Well, not yet is my point. Last week we would have said the spoiler about the ship crashing into a palace has not been confirmed. Today we think differently. Maybe in two months we'll have Lawden's stuff confirmed.

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It occurred to me with the idea I had above about the King alone having knowledge of Ragnarok, and Loki's possible involvement in it, being passed down from father to son as the son becomes King (officially)... that opens up some interesting issues for Thor then in regards to his brother and possible "moral sacrifice" as well. Does he continue to try to change his brother back to the side of good and hope to stop Ragnarok that way (as I surmise could have been Odin's goal in taking Loki as a baby) or does he keep him locked up, or even kill him as a way of breaking the cycle?
I realized I forgot to answer an earlier question from you. I've seen a panel in which Sif says something to the effect that "since my actions and those of the Warriors Three during the Ragnarok are not mentioned in the sagas, I hope we can still affect the outcome". So I think sometimes they write some awareness into the characters of the Norse myths.

In the myth of course, it is Balder's death that triggers the Ragnarok, and Frigga foresees it in her dreams. They did this story line one of the times. I'm sure the other Ragnaroks had other triggers.

I think there is a story line of Loki orchestrating his own adoption from the JMS run. They may be working that in. Could be very interesting.

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Old 12-07-2012, 07:40 PM   #360
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Well, not yet is my point. Last week we would have said the spoiler about the ship crashing into a palace has not been confirmed. Today we think differently. Maybe in two months we'll have Lawden's stuff confirmed.
well I hope that some things are confirmed and some things are not. LOL

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I realized I forgot to answer an earlier question from you. I've seen a panel in which Sif says something to the effect that "since my actions and those of the Warriors Three during the Ragnarok are not mentioned in the sagas, I hope we can still affect the outcome". So I think sometimes they write some awareness into the characters of the Norse myths.
Yes, that doesn't surprise me they did that in the comics. I know in the JIM comics that they are all pretty much against kid Loki from the start because they know who he is, and so it would follow that if MCU Asgardians knew all of that, they would have treated him the same way, but they don't appear to do that in MCU. Frigga allows Loki to take the throne during Odin's sleep, Volstagg and Fandral seem to want to give him the benefit of the doubt when Hogun and Sif question if Loki was involved with the break in. So they can't possibly know about his part in Ragnarok, if he has a part in the MCU version of Ragnaroks that is (which he likely will be involved somehow).

One BIG difference between MCU Loki and Comics Loki, btw, is the way he is raised. it is my impression that comics Odin and Frigga really do treat him poorly all his life (are there any stories where Odin and Frigga are loving parents to Loki?). Thor and Sigyn seem to be the only people who actually care about him. Mcu Loki has far more caring adoptive parents, even JIM Kid Loki is not loved by Odin and Frigga from what I've seen of that stuff, only Thor loves him. That certainly has a HUGE impact on any child and what sort of person they grow up to be. So we get into a whole nature vs nurture thing going on there for him in MCU. And that could certainly create some strong variations in the Loki character, which could then lead to some alternate story arcs based on those variations... which could certainly keep things interesting.

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In the myth of course, it is Balder's death that triggers the Ragnarok, and Frigga foresees it in her dreams. They did this story line one of the times. I'm sure the other Ragnaroks had other triggers.
but of course we dont have Balder at all in MCU it appears, so that means there will have to be another trigger. Could be based on what is already in the comics, or they could come up with something completely new. Honestly I'd rather they come up with something new, but that's just me, probably.

Not having Balder around also messes up the idea that if Odin dies, and Thor becomes King, then abdicates the throne, then who does the throne go to? Loki is now extremely unlikely even if he turns over a new leaf. Tyr will be in Thor 2, so that's a possibility, but we don't know the nature of his character yet, good or evil. The comics version is not likely to be handed the throne by Thor, I don't think, the myth version maybe. And of course that's a pretty BIG goof up if they have Tyr be Thor's older brother. (though again he may be changed to Odin's brother, certainly)

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I think there is a story line of Loki orchestrating his own adoption from the JMS run. They may be working that in. Could be very interesting.
I don't think they will work that in, that would definitely make it too complicated for the general audiences, I think. Though I think that certainly is an interesting aspect of that comic, from the various panels I've seen.

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:06 AM   #361
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Regarding that, I have wondered before if what will be revealed is previous incarnations of Thor etc have been to Earth, (due to the whole Ragnarok thing), setting up the mythology in the MCU, but not necessarily THESE versions (or not so much). Based on Thor's behavior, if he's been to Earth it probably wasn't recently, due to his lack of savvy. But Loki on the other hand, I could see having been to Earth MANY times in recent past.
That's what I am thinking. Thor has been to earth, but the most recent being at least a few hundred years ago,

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Old 12-08-2012, 12:11 AM   #362
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Well, the Asgardians do remember events from before the previous (several) Ragnarok(s). For example, Thor remembers all the ways in which Jane has exited the story over the years. In the JMS run, he has to remember all sorts of stuff (like who all his fellow Asgardians are) for the story to move forward at all. And kid Loki at least has dreams of his past actions.

You are right in that absolutely everything in Midgard and Asgard is destroyed in mythic Ragnaroek, and that two humans survive and build the world anew. I don't remember if the other 7 realms explicitly are destroyed as well, but I assume so. In theory, it could be an endless cycle, but I don't think the myths talk about it that way.

In the comics, Earth is never destroyed. Asgard always is. I don't know about the other 7 realms.

Anymore it seems like they are having a Ragnarok every few years. It's getting kind of tedious.
Well, thor ended te cycle of ragnarok actually, so I assume it wont happen anymore. the rune king thor arc was awesome

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Hmm, this is starting to feel complicated. You're right; no one seems to realize Loki is a trouble maker, and also, they start out as children. So that suggests that in the MCU, the versions of Thor et al that we see are the "first run"-ha!-versions, before any Ragnaroks. Which brings us back to the goof with Thor saying he'd only been to Earth once before. So I think it's simpler to chalk it up to a goof.

Re: Lady Loki. That's from the JMS run. As I understand, the souls of all the Asgardians were placed in (mortal?) host bodies (maybe Odin was trying to prevent another Ragnarok? I think he did something like that at some point). Thor has to go around and retrieve all his countrymen and get them to the bodies they are supposed to have. That's why he really has to remember a lot of stuff from before the Ragnarok. Loki has put himself into Sif's body, but Thor somehow fails to recognize said body and accepts Lady Loki as the current incarnation of Loki. (Eventually everyone gets the right body back).



Yes. Somewhere along the line (maybe Odin knows and then tells Thor) it is revealed that all these Ragnaroks are being orchestrated by Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. Thor ultimately breaks the cycle. Jon started a thread over in the Thor Sequels forum about beasties to express his hope that the World Serpent would be on the docket for Thor3. I supposed the same thing you do above, that Thor would try to break the Ragnarok cycle, which would mean taking on Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. (He does not take on the World Serpent in that particular Ragnarok. So much for prophecy! lol)

Recently I found out that story line involves Rune King Thor, ie, where Thor has an even more insane amount of power than Odin has (like, insanity cubed). That seems like too far for them to reach for in the MCU, so now I'm skeptical they will do that story line.
Thor was nuts with that. He gave up both his eyes, to go beyond his wisdom. So he had full control of the odinforce. His own power, the odinforce, plus the rune magic he learned. He blocked mangog's punch (a being once a sky father who threatened all of asgard, weakened now, but still far stronger than thor) by simply raising his hand with a spell, and just shuned him away. He had Surtur cowering. and obviously, ended the cycle of ragnarok. That thor was wayyyyyy too powerful to appear in the mcu. Thor was above any skyfather at that level, possibly even elder gods

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Old 12-08-2012, 06:34 AM   #363
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Well, thor ended te cycle of ragnarok actually, so I assume it wont happen anymore.
Well, reading up on the fictional history, I see they haven't done a Ragnarok per se since that confrontation with Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. But they've destroyed Asgard and killed Thor (with a Serpent no less, albeit not the World Serpent (and Thor did get better)). That's almost as repetitive.

(BTW, Elizah, in reading up about that last bit, I see Thor went to limbo upon his death. So that's another destination for dead Asgardians)

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Old 12-08-2012, 07:54 AM   #364
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Well, reading up on the fictional history, I see they haven't done a Ragnarok per se since that confrontation with Those Who Sit Above in Shadow. But they've destroyed Asgard and killed Thor (with a Serpent no less, albeit not the World Serpent (and Thor did get better)). That's almost as repetitive.

(BTW, Elizah, in reading up about that last bit, I see Thor went to limbo upon his death. So that's another destination for dead Asgardians)
Sheesh, yeah they've definitely got to simplify that all for the General Audience. it's too confusing, too many places people go. And another quibble (as you'd call it)... if the Valhalla soldiers come to defend Asgard, then what happens when they are killed? do they just go back to Valhalla and then back in line to defend Asgard? Or are they gone forever then?

of course we've been assuming that Lawden's reference that only Loki has access to the dark part of Asgard, and Thor must go with him to get recruits is a slip up and he means to say they are going to Valhalla, but perhaps it's not Valhalla at all. Perhaps it's more about some shady connection Loki has with the darker characters on Asgard, perhaps Nornheim, and so it's living beings that they must get this help from. ??? It still doesnt exactly explain why Loki is the only one with access to that place that he has to show Thor the way, but maybe if it's more about relationships/connections Loki has with certain people that he needs to use, rather than opening a portal/door to somewhere.

Btw, you know you're thinking about the Thor movies too much when your dreams start making up trailers to Thor 2. That would be okay but it's sort of frustrating when the dream has nothing to do with any of the spoilers that have been going around. I mean... I had twin boy green nightcrawler-like children in my Thor trailer dream last night... with long pointy tails and twirling around and dancing! They were cute but I dont think they'll be in Thor 2. Also some elegant Asgardian ball gets crashed by a bunch of Frost Giants (male and female) that wreck the place. Lawden said nothing about that! Sheesh. And no, Loki wasn't in it.

Jon, in the comics are just Asgardians killed at Ragnarok or ALL of the people of the 9 realms are killed? Do you know?


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Old 12-08-2012, 12:59 PM   #365
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Sheesh, yeah they've definitely got to simplify that all for the General Audience. it's too confusing, too many places people go. And another quibble (as you'd call it)... if the Valhalla soldiers come to defend Asgard, then what happens when they are killed? do they just go back to Valhalla and then back in line to defend Asgard? Or are they gone forever then?
Hmmm, good question!!

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of course we've been assuming that Lawden's reference that only Loki has access to the dark part of Asgard, and Thor must go with him to get recruits is a slip up and he means to say they are going to Valhalla, but perhaps it's not Valhalla at all. Perhaps it's more about some shady connection Loki has with the darker characters on Asgard, perhaps Nornheim, and so it's living beings that they must get this help from. ??? It still doesnt exactly explain why Loki is the only one with access to that place that he has to show Thor the way, but maybe if it's more about relationships/connections Loki has with certain people that he needs to use, rather than opening a portal/door to somewhere.
Well, he does say the dark part of Asgard: "the only person who has access to the dark side of Asgard is his old brother Loki". (I put the links in the second post of this thread, p. 1, for just such an occasion). And Nornheim is part of Asgard. So they could yet be seeking help from living beings. They might also be dragging Jane along to find someone who can do an exorcism, though it seems that the malevolent spirit must *want* to go in order for that plan to work.

I also feel that it must be that Thor is not able to open portals at the beginning of the film. If he were able to, he wouldn't need Loki's help.

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Btw, you know you're thinking about the Thor movies too much when your dreams start making up trailers to Thor 2. That would be okay but it's sort of frustrating when the dream has nothing to do with any of the spoilers that have been going around. I mean... I had twin boy green nightcrawler-like children in my Thor trailer dream last night... with long pointy tails and twirling around and dancing! They were cute but I dont think they'll be in Thor 2.
Ha!

Another sign you're thinking about Thor2 too much: watching the trailer for the new Star Trek film and seeing tie-ins to the Thor spoilers! (It *is* called Star Trek Into Darkness. . . .)


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Also some elegant Asgardian ball gets crashed by a bunch of Frost Giants (male and female) that wreck the place. Lawden said nothing about that! Sheesh. And no, Loki wasn't in it.
Were the Frost Giants wearing underwear? (Since you were worried about it before, I figured that detail might have been addressed. . . .)

As for Loki not being in it, well, maybe next dream!

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Old 12-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #366
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

okay so let's look at the Lawden spoilers again...
http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-tho...lers-rumors/3/

By the way, I haven't been following IM3 stuff too closely, (though I will definitely see it in theaters) has he been proven/disproven yet on anything he said about IM3 in that interview?

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“Thor becomes reunited with Jane who becomes possessed by a Dark Spirit, which is connected with the Dark Elves; a race the Asgardians have fallen out with many years beforehand [...] The Dark Elves attack Asgard, and they take a huge hit. So Thor has to rebuild Asgard by putting together an army to go and take the battle to the Dark Elves and defeat them. But the only way he can do this is – he needs to cross over to the Dark World, and the only person who has access to the dark side of Asgard is his old brother Loki, who at the beginning of the film is locked up in prison.
“So what happens is Thor basically has to negotiate this truce with Loki, and he goes on this great trek with Jane, all three of them. They go to this far side of Asgard, which is being shot in Iceland, where they train and assemble an army to go and attack the Dark Elves’ world.”

“But the exclusive twist…is that one of the things that happens during the Asgardian attack is that Thor’s mother gets killed. So it becomes like a vengeance thing. And they were keeping very tight-lipped about what actually happens with Loki, you don’t know whether he redeems himself or he’s still the bad egg.”
so as you know the big thing that was bothering me about these spoilers is that he seemed to be referring to Thor and Loki needing to get warriors from Valhalla and that Loki only has access to that and that Valhalla is referred to by Lawden as the "dark world" (which it is definitely not). The thing about them assembling and training an army bothered me too, since the Valhalla warriors already have experience as an army, some probably more experienced even than Thor. So that all didn't really make sense to me. Screenrant assumes the same thing about the dark world = Valhalla on that website link, so we were all taking that lead I suppose, and I think that may very well be incorrect now. We may not see Valhalla at all in Thor 2 and the Einherjar characters listed on IMDB might only be the regular Asgardian soldiers and guards, as they were referred to that in Thor 1.

So instead, I think IF all the Lawden spoilers are correct, that it may be it's more to do with Thor needing Loki's personal connections with the darker side of Asgard to gather and train an army to defeat the various threats. Then the gathering and training an army part makes A LOT more sense as well. Also if Loki is master of magic then he must have a mentor and not necessarily Odin, but that could be a variation of the role of Karnilla and/or the Alice Krige character. That could certainly work Nornheim into it, from what I can tell Nornheim IS a dark side of Asgard. Or Loki could simply have made some shady connections with the darker forces of Asgard in the process of learning and gaining power with his sorcery, and that's why Thor needs Loki and how Thor is able to gather and train an army to defend Asgard. They have been hit hard and Thor needs all the help he can get to keep Asgard in the hands of Asgardians. (and this may mean a really great rallying cry "For Asgard" speech by Thor, I hope!) . And of course Loki using his dark world connections like this, could certainly leave a door open or two for some crosses and double crosses during the course of the film to keep things interesting with him.

Another idea, is if the Dark Elves have successfully made part of Asgard a "dark world" then there are more Asgardians trapped on that side, and it may be only Loki who is able to break through to get Thor etc, into that part due to Malekith's magic, and then fight off the Dark Elves then.

two alternate ideas to think about anyway.

Lawden only says Thor needs Loki to access the dark side of Asgard for reinforcements, he doesn't say anything about them bringing Jane along because she needs the possessing spirit exorcised, so again, it may be something that's not noticeable (like the way Loki watched over Erik at the end of Thor 1, not necessarily controlling her completely just maybe Malekith using her to spy on things, without her knowing it)... and so it may not be any bigger a piece of the story than that.

there was never any confirmation that Natalie was in Iceland (and I think she was confirmed to be elsewhere) but I don't think that necessarily means Jane won't be there, just the scenes didn't require her there. Although I'm still not crazy about her tagging along.


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Old 12-08-2012, 02:01 PM   #367
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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Were the Frost Giants wearing underwear? (Since you were worried about it before, I figured that detail might have been addressed. . . .)
You know I didn't notice, but I'd hope so. It was a fancy dress ball, after all!

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As for Loki not being in it, well, maybe next dream!
*crosses fingers*

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Old 12-08-2012, 04:13 PM   #368
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Default Re: Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

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okay so let's look at the Lawden spoilers again...
http://screenrant.com/iron-man-3-tho...lers-rumors/3/

By the way, I haven't been following IM3 stuff too closely, (though I will definitely see it in theaters) has he been proven/disproven yet on anything he said about IM3 in that interview?



so as you know the big thing that was bothering me about these spoilers is that he seemed to be referring to Thor and Loki needing to get warriors from Valhalla and that Loki only has access to that and that Valhalla is referred to by Lawden as the "dark world" (which it is definitely not). The thing about them assembling and training an army bothered me too, since the Valhalla warriors already have experience as an army, some probably more experienced even than Thor. So that all didn't really make sense to me. Screenrant assumes the same thing about the dark world = Valhalla on that website link, so we were all taking that lead I suppose, and I think that may very well be incorrect now. We may not see Valhalla at all in Thor 2 and the Einherjar characters listed on IMDB might only be the regular Asgardian soldiers and guards, as they were referred to that in Thor 1.

So instead, I think IF all the Lawden spoilers are correct, that it may be it's more to do with Thor needing Loki's personal connections with the darker side of Asgard to gather and train an army to defeat the various threats. Then the gathering and training an army part makes A LOT more sense as well. Also if Loki is master of magic then he must have a mentor and not necessarily Odin, but that could be a variation of the role of Karnilla and/or the Alice Krige character. That could certainly work Nornheim into it, from what I can tell Nornheim IS a dark side of Asgard. Or Loki could simply have made some shady connections with the darker forces of Asgard in the process of learning and gaining power with his sorcery, and that's why Thor needs Loki and how Thor is able to gather and train an army to defend Asgard. They have been hit hard and Thor needs all the help he can get to keep Asgard in the hands of Asgardians. (and this may mean a really great rallying cry "For Asgard" speech by Thor, I hope!) . And of course Loki using his dark world connections like this, could certainly leave a door open or two for some crosses and double crosses during the course of the film to keep things interesting with him.

Another idea, is if the Dark Elves have successfully made part of Asgard a "dark world" then there are more Asgardians trapped on that side, and it may be only Loki who is able to break through to get Thor etc, into that part due to Malekith's magic, and then fight off the Dark Elves then.

two alternate ideas to think about anyway.

Lawden only says Thor needs Loki to access the dark side of Asgard for reinforcements, he doesn't say anything about them bringing Jane along because she needs the possessing spirit exorcised, so again, it may be something that's not noticeable (like the way Loki watched over Erik at the end of Thor 1, not necessarily controlling her completely just maybe Malekith using her to spy on things, without her knowing it)... and so it may not be any bigger a piece of the story than that.

there was never any confirmation that Natalie was in Iceland (and I think she was confirmed to be elsewhere) but I don't think that necessarily means Jane won't be there, just the scenes didn't require her there. Although I'm still not crazy about her tagging along.
As for the needing loki to get to dark side of asgard, well, here is what I think. I don't think Lawden may know the myth and comics THAT well. I think what he may mean is that, thor needs loki to get him to other REALMS, we do know loki can do that without the bifrost. I think it may very well be that, opposed to "a dark part of asgard", I can see how someone who doesn't understand myth and comics may missinterpit that part of the plot.

yeah, i know i spelled missinterpit wrong, i did it again. oh well

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Old 12-08-2012, 04:31 PM   #369
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As for the needing loki to get to dark side of asgard, well, here is what I think. I don't think Lawden may know the myth and comics THAT well. I think what he may mean is that, thor needs loki to get him to other REALMS, we do know loki can do that without the bifrost. I think it may very well be that, opposed to "a dark part of asgard", I can see how someone who doesn't understand myth and comics may missinterpit that part of the plot.

yeah, i know i spelled missinterpit wrong, i did it again. oh well
possibly, he was misinterpreting something like that yes. But he gives us an order of events, Asgard is attacked and hit hard, Frigga dies, Thor needs Loki's help for new recruits, Thor and Loki (and possibly Jane) go on a trek for said recruits, and then they assemble and train an army, and so misinterpreting like that seems less likely. Now they could go to other worlds to assemble that army from, but it seems like they probably wouldn't get much support as they would from other Asgardians who maybe have not been warriors previously (or not warriors for Odin, anyway). As I've speculated, I suspect many of these realms are looking to take advantage of the Asgardians in a weakened state.

Also, we know they have the Tesseract, and the doohickey that was made to operate it and bring Thor and Loki back to Asgard, so it would seem like he'd use that first, before risking dealing with his very PO out of his mind, unpredictable brother. That is if Thor can't make his own portals at this point with Mjolnir (most annoying thing about this fandom, btw, constantly having to go back and look up how to spell things like Mjolnir and Svartalfheim when replying to posts, because heaven forbid I spell THAT wrong!)


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Old 12-08-2012, 10:46 PM   #370
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possibly, he was misinterpreting something like that yes. But he gives us an order of events, Asgard is attacked and hit hard, Frigga dies, Thor needs Loki's help for new recruits, Thor and Loki (and possibly Jane) go on a trek for said recruits, and then they assemble and train an army, and so misinterpreting like that seems less likely. Now they could go to other worlds to assemble that army from, but it seems like they probably wouldn't get much support as they would from other Asgardians who maybe have not been warriors previously (or not warriors for Odin, anyway). As I've speculated, I suspect many of these realms are looking to take advantage of the Asgardians in a weakened state.

Also, we know they have the Tesseract, and the doohickey that was made to operate it and bring Thor and Loki back to Asgard, so it would seem like he'd use that first, before risking dealing with his very PO out of his mind, unpredictable brother. That is if Thor can't make his own portals at this point with Mjolnir (most annoying thing about this fandom, btw, constantly having to go back and look up how to spell things like Mjolnir and Svartalfheim when replying to posts, because heaven forbid I spell THAT wrong!)
true true, svartalfheim I have to occasionally check on, mjolnir i am good with

true, true. See, like, idk, haha i don't know. we'll have to wait and see. but i am hoping for some exotic thor powers, from mjolnir, mroe than just lightning, portals would be cool, as would different types of blasts

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Old 12-09-2012, 07:55 AM   #371
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OT: woke up with the flu this morning... Blah... I hope I don't projectile vomit on my keyboard.

another idea along the lines of him misinterpreting some things, and Thor needing Loki's personal connections, is if he actually needs Loki to help "negotiate a truce" with the NON Dark Elf invading/Bourne Woods army, again very possibly the Vanir and fighting with them against the Dark Elves. If he has a connection with them that he can play up on to get to the point of negotiations, such as having a mentor in magic there back from when they were at peace with the Asgardians, then that may be why Thor needs him. This is possible but that would require some misinterpreting of information on Lawden's part, certainly.


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Old 12-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #372
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OT: woke up with the flu this morning... Blah... I hope I don't projectile vomit on my keyboard.

another idea along the lines of him misinterpreting some things, and Thor needing Loki's personal connections, is if he actually needs Loki to help "negotiate a truce" with the NON Dark Elf invading/Bourne Woods army, again very possibly the Vanir and fighting with them against the Dark Elves. If he has a connection with them that he can play up on to get to the point of negotiations, such as having a mentor in magic there back from when they were at peace with the Asgardians, then that may be why Thor needs him. This is possible but that would require some misinterpreting of information on Lawden's part, certainly.
the only thing that bugs me though is the him needing loki's help to get to parts of asgard. Thor shouldn't need "help" to get to any part of asgard, which lead mee to think he may need his help to get to another realm. idkkkk

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Old 12-09-2012, 12:22 PM   #373
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OT: woke up with the flu this morning... Blah... I hope I don't projectile vomit on my keyboard. .
Oh no! Take care of yourself.

And I hereby grant you sick leave from the Hype

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Old 12-09-2012, 08:06 PM   #374
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the only thing that bugs me though is the him needing loki's help to get to parts of asgard. Thor shouldn't need "help" to get to any part of asgard, which lead mee to think he may need his help to get to another realm. idkkkk
That's exactly what bothered me about the Valhalla scenario. This is not what I'm saying here though. What I am saying here is due to personal connections Loki may have, Thor may need his help with getting people to help, or negotiating a truce with the Bourne woods warriors to fight the Dark Elves. It's one thing for Thor to be able to go anywhere on Asgard, or open a portal, it's another to get those other worlds to co-operate with him. As Loki learned, being king doesn't automatically mean that everyone is going to bend to your will. And don't forget, up until Thor 1, Thor spent 1000 years being Odin's bratty war mongering meathead son, until he changed and grew up. Now who do you suppose he fought in all of those "glorious battles" that he and the warriors 3 went on? It was beings in the other realms of course, so these other realms that has fought him in the past, it would make sense if they are not too keen on him becoming King at all. Loki on the other hand has that "silver tongue" and "trickster charm" that he's depended on all those years until he made a bad turn, so the spoiler may refer more to him having a few personal connections that are bridges Thor has burned long ago, rather than Loki opening a portal anywhere.

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And I hereby grant you sick leave from the Hype
thanks, feeling a little better finally, was a terrible terrible awful yucky time most of the day though.

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Old 12-10-2012, 12:01 AM   #375
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That's exactly what bothered me about the Valhalla scenario. This is not what I'm saying here though. What I am saying here is due to personal connections Loki may have, Thor may need his help with getting people to help, or negotiating a truce with the Bourne woods warriors to fight the Dark Elves. It's one thing for Thor to be able to go anywhere on Asgard, or open a portal, it's another to get those other worlds to co-operate with him. As Loki learned, being king doesn't automatically mean that everyone is going to bend to your will. And don't forget, up until Thor 1, Thor spent 1000 years being Odin's bratty war mongering meathead son, until he changed and grew up. Now who do you suppose he fought in all of those "glorious battles" that he and the warriors 3 went on? It was beings in the other realms of course, so these other realms that has fought him in the past, it would make sense if they are not too keen on him becoming King at all. Loki on the other hand has that "silver tongue" and "trickster charm" that he's depended on all those years until he made a bad turn, so the spoiler may refer more to him having a few personal connections that are bridges Thor has burned long ago, rather than Loki opening a portal anywhere.



thanks, feeling a little better finally, was a terrible terrible awful yucky time most of the day though.
hmm, i think it is pretty well known that loki has been trouble though. Volstagg saying silver tongue, and "loki's always been one for mischief" unless you mean he has connections with like.. a few individuals. Cause I don't see Loki being viewed as the "better" person by others. He has always been a trickster. Unless you mean loki has connections to individual people.

ugh. i hope we get something soon. i want to see some footage real soon. I still think though that thor needs loki's help to get him to other realms. we'll see

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