Does Bane being a PURELY physical threat hamper him as a villain?

[Ryan]

Hated Bane in the comics and wasn't looking forward to seeing him in TDKR. With that being said, I think Nolan/Hardy did a really good job of the character. Nolan said that Bane was a classic movie monster. While Bane was more then just muscle (in comparison to his appearance in Batman and Robin), I still think I prefer the more cerebral characters. Would have loved to have seen what Nolan would have done with Riddler.

[Anno_Domini]

Riddler would have felt way too much of the same after Joker was used in TDK, imo.

[Fudgie]

Nolan said the same thing but how the hell is that true? Riddler like puzzles and riddles. He's alla bout challenging I.Q. levels. Joker wasn't into any of that. He was a chaos man who liked breaking people's minds and spirit.

[Anno_Domini]

Well if Nolan had said the same thing, you'd think that's how Nolan's Riddler would have been, don't ya think? Even if Riddler can be more, Nolan wasn't sure how to make him different since he did say he'd sorta be the same as Joker.

[Fudgie]

Then he wouldn't be the Riddler since Riddler is not into any of that kind of thing.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Well if Nolan had said the same thing, you'd think that's how Nolan's Riddler would have been, don't ya think? Even if Riddler can be more, Nolan wasn't sure how to make him different since he did say he'd sorta be the same as Joker.

I think the phrasing went more along the lines of 'the Riddler would be the same type of threat as the Joker', which essentially makes sense and isn't the same thing as saying they're 'the same'.

Bane works great as the villain in the trilogy-closer because he's an end-game type of villain.

[Ryan]

Love how crap gets twisted. Just said I would have liked to have seen Nolan's take on the Riddler. I would have loved to have seen him do Penguin and pretty well any of Batman's rogues for that matter as Nolan does a great job with the characters.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

To give the character layers instead of leaving ya to make up a bunch of stuff ya never see or hear in the flick.

Oh, but you do see and hear some of the stuff I was alluding to. There's the line 'I didn't the see the light until I was already a man', there's Bane's cockiness/arrogance and ego which is clear for everyone to see and then there's his establishment as an honorable character because he rescues a defenseless child.

Originally Posted by Fudgie

If ya read the Killing Joke then ya know that was Joker's reason for trying to break Gordon, too. Some bad crap happened to him, he doesn't remember exactly what it is, but he knows it was a bad day that made him go nuts. So he was gonna prove that's all ya need to go crazy by giving Gordon a bad day.

Same deal with Heath Joker. The scars were the thing that made him go crazy. That's the common thing in both of his scar stories mon ami. So the J-man tries pushing people to the limit to show how easy it is to break people who are good because everyone is corruptible to him. The Bat rubbed that in his face about being wrong about that when the ferry people didn't blown each other to hell.

IMO, Heath's Joker doesn't hint as clearly towards a single day making him the way he is like in The Killing Joke. Although I do admit it's possible. Then again, if I try and fill in gaps in Bane's past within the confines of the world that's been established and get called for 'conjecturing', then the same principle applies to this situation, wouldn't you agree?

Originally Posted by Fudgie

BB didn't mention squat about Bane so yeah we were watching different flicks.

But it did show us Bruce refusing the League's offer based on principle, which was the part I was referring to in my previous post.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Love how crap gets twisted. Just said I would have liked to have seen Nolan's take on the Riddler. I would have loved to have seen him do Penguin and pretty well any of Batman's rogues for that matter as Nolan does a great job with the characters.

Just to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of misinterpreting that particular quote from Nolan. Just remembered him clarifying it in a recent interview. Sorry if I came off as accusing you.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Just to be clear, I wasn't accusing you of misinterpreting that particular quote from Nolan. Just remembered him clarifying it in a recent interview. Sorry if I came off as accusing you.

Ha, no worries, wasn't bothered by your post. We have different opinions at times about TDKR, but I do enjoy reading your thoughts about it.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by Ryan

Ha, no worries, wasn't bothered by your post. We have different opinions at times about TDKR, but I do enjoy reading your thoughts about it.

Why thank you.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

IMO, Heath's Joker doesn't hint as clearly towards a single day making him the way he is like in The Killing Joke. Although I do admit it's possible.

I think when he says "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" he's saying "Do you want to know how I became the Joker?". Why else would he adopt a clown look and say "Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling". His scars are the big perma smile he's always wearing as a product of something terrible that happened to him.

You're dead right, the multiple stories was a nod to The Killing Joke. Heath Ledger himself said TKJ was handed to him to read as part of his prep for the role;

The Killing Joke is the one that was handed to me. It's really good. So I think [the film] is obviously going to be a bit [about] the beginning of the Joker. I guess [The Killing Joke] explains a little bit of where he's from, but not too much. From what I've gathered, there isn't a lot of information about the Joker and it's kind of left that way."

http://ie.ign.com/articles/2006/11/0...er-talks-joker

Most of Joker's scheme in TDK is a love letter to Joker's twisted experiment on Jim Gordon in TKJ.



Batman essentially says the same thing to Joker when the ferries don't blow up; "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone". You could consider Harvey Dent the Jim Gordon of the story in terms of Joker trying to prove someone really good can be broken, only in TDK's case Joker succeeded, whereas in TKJ he failed to break Gordon.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

I think the phrasing went more along the lines of 'the Riddler would be the same type of threat as the Joker', which essentially makes sense and isn't the same thing as saying they're 'the same'.

Bane works great as the villain in the trilogy-closer because he's an end-game type of villain.

You could see how I get the phrase mixed up as it definitely seemed like Nolan's Riddler wouldn't have been really different from Joker though.

Originally Posted by Ryan

Love how crap gets twisted. Just said I would have liked to have seen Nolan's take on the Riddler. I would have loved to have seen him do Penguin and pretty well any of Batman's rogues for that matter as Nolan does a great job with the characters.

No "crap" was twisted. Only said how Riddler would be nothing new as Bane was.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by Fudgie

Nolan said the same thing but how the hell is that true? Riddler like puzzles and riddles. He's alla bout challenging I.Q. levels. Joker wasn't into any of that. He was a chaos man who liked breaking people's minds and spirit.

Because Riddler is another psychological opponent for Batman. Joker in TDK left his cards, his clues in the newspapers etc...theyre not exactly puzzles but the mind games are there. If Batman met up with this guy, he would be throwing him around like a rag doll once again, just like with Joker.

I've always felt Riddler was very close to Joker anyway. There's a lot of similarities there (yes i know they have plenty of differences too).

If this series were to continue on from the likes of Bane, Catwoman and the League of Shadows as a whole...then it would be time to do a Riddler or Penguin. But it was always a bad idea to follow TDK with the Riddler. We would have had a watered down copy of the movie for a sequel. No thanks.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by The Joker

I think when he says "Do you want to know how I got these scars?" he's saying "Do you want to know how I became the Joker?". Why else would he adopt a clown look and say "Now I see the funny side. Now I'm always smiling". His scars are the big perma smile he's always wearing as a product of something terrible that happened to him.

You're dead right, the multiple stories was a nod to The Killing Joke. Heath Ledger himself said TKJ was handed to him to read as part of his prep for the role;



http://ie.ign.com/articles/2006/11/0...er-talks-joker

Most of Joker's scheme in TDK is a love letter to Joker's twisted experiment on Jim Gordon in TKJ.



Batman essentially says the same thing to Joker when the ferries don't blow up; "What were you trying to prove, that deep down everyone's as ugly as you? You're alone". You could consider Harvey Dent the Jim Gordon of the story in terms of Joker trying to prove someone really good can be broken, only in TDK's case Joker succeeded, whereas in TKJ he failed to break Gordon.

Exactly right in all areas. But that's to be expected coming from you in regards to this topic.

[Ryan]

Crap was twisted indeed.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

To the OP: Not at all. Ra's Al Ghul and Joker had reached their apotheosis, so to speak. They had their goals--Ra's rubbing out the corruption in Gotham through any means necessary, Joker demonstrating how anyone could be made degenerate by one bad day. Bane, on the other hand, didn't arrive in Gotham with such broadly reaching messages.

Bane's was more personal: He and Bruce were both rescued from prison by Ra's. Ra's trained both in the League. Ra's distaste for Bane--a monster that emerged from the hellhole where his wife was raped/killed--led him to excommunicate Bane. In contrast to Bane, Ra's wanted Bruce to be at his side when he attacked Gotham. Bruce rejected the opportunity and place in the League Ra's offered him.

Bane was never even given that. Yet, despite the honor offered by Ra's, Bruce rejected the offer. This is where Bane's motive comes in. In leading his mercenaries to Gotham, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Bruce. This happened in the sewer fight where he basically took Bruce apart at his leisure. Furthermore, Bane was the first to become the symbol that Bruce wished to be: Bane inspired the people to rise up against corruption.

Through completing Ra's Al Ghul's mission, Bane sought to prove himself the superior man to Ra's. Ra's tried using the economy to bring Gotham to its knees. He tried using the Fear Gas to cause the citizens to tear their city apart. He failed on both counts, thanks to Batman. Bane was also thwarted by Batman in the end; however he enjoyed a greater measure of success than Ra's. He took in the orphans who were kicked out of the orphanage and the lower class. He galvanized the people to strike back against the rich. Under Bane, the Gothamites were in full possession of their mental faculties when they turned on each other.

My interpretation is based chiefly on the dialogue between Blake and the orphan in the beginning about work in the sewers, Bane's dialogue during the sewer fight, the backstory as given by Talia and Talia's line to Bruce: "Innocent (innocence?) is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce."

Edit: Shaun, your feelings on following TDK with Riddler echo my sentiments in the couple of years after TDK's release when much of the speculation revolved around the Riddler being the villain. I just wasn't excited for those films. However, I think in the reboot series, Riddler should be Batman's stepping stone from mob/gangsters to freaks and flamboyant mobsters.

[Ryan]

I've read the comments by Nolan and how he felt riddler would be too close to the joker, however he was up to using the Los again, which I still think was a mistake. I understand the philosophy of doing something different, guess it just doesn't always equate to being better.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by AnneFan

Exactly right in all areas. But that's to be expected coming from you in regards to this topic.

Well thank you

Originally Posted by Ryan

I've read the comments by Nolan and how he felt riddler would be too close to the joker, however he was up to using the Los again, which I still think was a mistake. I understand the philosophy of doing something different, guess it just doesn't always equate to being better.

Indeed. The LOS come back, Talia is pretending to be someone else, their plan involves destroying Gotham City again using a Wayne Enterprises device.

[Anno_Domini]

The LoS returning makes it feel like a trilogy though, imo. Coming full circle and taking on the LoS since they were the first major battle for Batman.

[Schlosser85]

Bane wasn't a purely physical threat.

He had a plan mapped out the same as Ra's Al Ghul did.

How well or poorly thought out you think his plans were, they did exist, in detail.

Luring Batman and the cops into the sewers, using Daggett for the construction projects planting explosives in the sewers, using Catwoman to steal Bruce's fingerprints, the decoy trucks, etc.

So he did challenge Batman both physically and strategically.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The LoS returning makes it feel like a trilogy though, imo. Coming full circle and taking on the LoS since they were the first major battle for Batman.

I agree. Sure, on paper it sounds like it could be a complete rehash. I remember someone made this WAY back before any details about TDKR were known and it became something of a meme on here if I'm not mistaken:

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Now, it is kind of funny how strangely on target that is, but the thing is- the execution of these elements in TDKR made it feel completely fresh and exciting, to me anyway. A lot of that has to do with Bane and the type of evil that he represents.

What's so messed up about Bane and Talia's LOS is that it's like they themselves inflict a situation upon Gotham wherein it's allowed to become more and more morally depraved and in need of "cleansing". Then again, this may not be so dissimilar to Ra's after all since he himself originally attacked Gotham economically, which helped grow it into the cesspool of crime and corruption we saw in Batman Begins. But that's a very subtle similarity.

I also just really love that Ra's al Ghul casts such a shadow over the trilogy. He is given some of the most iconic and important lines in one of the first scenes of Begins, and they echo very strongly into Rises.

If we compare this trilogy to The Godfather, Liam is the Vito to Bale's Michael. Only it would be a story where Michael ultimately rejects the mafia lifestyle and chooses a path of good. There's just a lot of richness there, especially when you get into Bane and Bruce being the two estranged sons of Ra's, individually embodying his best and worst qualities.

[A Necessary Evil]

LOL that is scary how close to the truth that was.

Manip is also up there with Ben.

[Anno_Domini]

Vin Diesel as Bane or what? Lol.

[BatLobsterRises]

Yup, lol. Just imagine it...



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