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Old 11-15-2012, 05:24 AM   #76
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Default Re: Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread

If there is one flaw that I even noticed as a kid, it was this: Han didn't really have an arc in this one. He was active, but his role was lesser here than in ESB and ANH. And to me, it hurted RotJ to a certain degree. Now i know he's not the focal point of the narrative, but a Plot B with Han would've been nice.

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Old 11-15-2012, 05:32 AM   #77
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Yup. They gave him nothing to do.

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Old 11-15-2012, 07:11 PM   #78
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If there is one flaw that I even noticed as a kid, it was this: Han didn't really have an arc in this one. He was active, but his role was lesser here than in ESB and ANH. And to me, it hurted RotJ to a certain degree. Now i know he's not the focal point of the narrative, but a Plot B with Han would've been nice.
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Yup. They gave him nothing to do.
Thats because he was supposed to die, twice. First they weren't sure if Han would return for Jedi (haha pun) and they planned for him to die in the carbon freeze and replace him with Lando. Then after Harrison agreed they decided he survives, but was scheduled to die in the next film because has Kurtz and Ford felt "he had nowhere left to go". However Lucas had a change of heart even making the slightly humorous statement "I don't think I can sell too many dead Han toys". So his death was written out of Jedi. Lando was supposed to take his role for that movie (The reason he's flying the Falcon into battle and not Han in the first place).

The biggest flaw of Return of the Jedi IMO is that it has the production values of a made for TV movie. Lucas's personal life had been ruined and he was left with his kids he just wanted to be done with Star Wars and as a result it doesn't have that passion the first two did. Perhaps this is why the Luke vs Vader scenes had so much more emotion than the rest of the film, perhaps Lucas too realized he was becoming his father as well.

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Old 11-16-2012, 08:37 AM   #79
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I was 6 when ESB came out, and I had no idea about the whole "I am your father" scene until I saw the movie. I actually thought the whole reason Vader was so obsessed with finding Luke Skywalker was because he was still mad at him for blowing up the Death Star. Like I said, I was 6.

I've read that one of the reasons Lucas left that as a cliffhanger was so kids who were frightened of Vader could leave thinking it might not be true. I was totally one of those kids...Darth Vader scared the crap out of me when I was that age, so I refused to entertain the notion that he could actually be Luke's father. I didn't know any other kids who thought it was true, either.

But I remember seeing a commercial for ROTJ a few weeks before it came out, and by then I was almost 9, and they showed the scene where Luke asked Yoda if Vader was his father.

And that was the moment I realized it was true. No idea why, but I knew it then.

Up until that point in my movie viewing life, I don't think I had ever seen a movie with that type of cliffhanger either. I was completely confused by the ending of ESB ... it just seemed to end to me ... Was Vader serious? What about Han? Who is this "other"?

I could not wait for Jedi.

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Old 11-16-2012, 07:12 PM   #80
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Thats because he was supposed to die, twice. First they weren't sure if Han would return for Jedi (haha pun) and they planned for him to die in the carbon freeze and replace him with Lando. Then after Harrison agreed they decided he survives, but was scheduled to die in the next film because has Kurtz and Ford felt "he had nowhere left to go". However Lucas had a change of heart even making the slightly humorous statement "I don't think I can sell too many dead Han toys". So his death was written out of Jedi. Lando was supposed to take his role for that movie (The reason he's flying the Falcon into battle and not Han in the first place).

The biggest flaw of Return of the Jedi IMO is that it has the production values of a made for TV movie. Lucas's personal life had been ruined and he was left with his kids he just wanted to be done with Star Wars and as a result it doesn't have that passion the first two did. Perhaps this is why the Luke vs Vader scenes had so much more emotion than the rest of the film, perhaps Lucas too realized he was becoming his father as well.
Rewatching 'Jedi' again and it's not so much the dialog that's the problem though I feel this time around Lucas has more say in the actual script than in 'Empire'; it doesn't have the consistency of 'Empire' but there are moments of great dialog here..probably from Kasdan. Ignoring the Ewoks, I think it's the structure of the story and the tone that's a bit uneven. I'd agree that the second act is a long stretch until Luke encounters Vader again.

And Ford did an admirable job of giving Han the right amount of energy despite him not wanting to do 'Jedi' in the first place. Unlike Connery whose performances in the later Bond movies were bored and flat. Not a knock against Connery though since he later regain energy as an older man in the 80's, but you're an actor. Act!

But yeah, Han didn't have a whole lot to do besides a few quips here and there, and yeah, it feels like it was a rewrite to fit Han into the plot after Ford agreed/forced to come back.

He wasn't even involved in the Speeder bike scene...All he got from Endor was being humped by an Ewok. Even in the battle of Endor, he didn't do a whole lot besides hotwiring the bases' door.

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Old 11-17-2012, 03:35 AM   #81
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Default Re: Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread

*Looks up at title* This is the Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread right?

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Old 11-17-2012, 12:15 PM   #82
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1997 Special Edition
I always thought this poster makes it look like ROTJ is a buddy comedy starring Chewie and Jabba.

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Old 11-17-2012, 03:49 PM   #83
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Default Re: Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread

i think ford did have character development in the sense of when Leia was sad after talking to luke she told han she wanted to be left alone and he got jelious and stormed off. Then he stopped and came back to apologies. The Han we knew in the first two would not have done that. Even when he thought there was something between liea and luke he said he would walk away cause he cared more for her happiness then himself.

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:14 AM   #84
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Default Re: Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread

Eh, still not enough for my tastes. At least Leia showed some skin.

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:23 AM   #85
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Well we can agree that Return of the Jedi was helped by the prequels somewhat, and now has elevated it's status as an equal with the other two OT films. Thank you, prequels.

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Old 11-19-2012, 03:59 AM   #86
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Default Re: Return of the Jedi Appreciation Thread

If anything, the Prequels knocked it from my 3rd favorite to my 6th favorite.

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Old 11-19-2012, 04:45 AM   #87
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If anything, the Prequels knocked it from my 3rd favorite to my 6th favorite.
You think the Prequels are better than ROTJ?
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:46 AM   #88
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Not when you have to defend the Prequels! Look at my User Title.

2 of my top 3 SW flicks are PT.

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Old 11-22-2012, 07:05 PM   #89
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There has been debate on which was better, Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi. As a person who dislikes the PT, I think this debate has some weight. I think Sith was the best out of the PT, but it's because the last two were gross. (I still think Phantom Menace is one of the worst movies I've seen, along with Dreamcatcher and Transformers 2.)

I think both movies are uneven, but I'd give 'Jedi' an edge because it does have the characters that I love and it completes their journey, mostly Luke's and Vader's. There's still sets and on-sight locations and the practical effects are still amazing.

Plus non of the prequels have pop culture moments that have been ingrained into our public lexicon (yet). Let's look at it from a causal fan or Joe Public's point of view: The OT had 'May the Force be with you', 'Its a trap', Slave Leias at Comic-Con, Leia's Bun hair, Yoda himself, "I'm your Father', etc. And to a lesser extent, 'Han Shot First' among other things. And yes, Boba Fett is still more popular than his father. Everything is so iconic and it can't just be my rose-tinted glasses can it?

PT has done squat besides making fun of Jar-Jar and the array of Clone Troopers at conventions. Maybe Darth Maul? Yeah...It's been nearly 10 years, so.

Revenge of the Sith is as flawed as 'Jedi' but it still has the most unlikable/flat set of characters that I don't care about. Besides Obi, who should've been more of the focus of the PT from the get-go while we see the growth of Anakin's arc. I guess we kinda got it, but it lacked focus and was mishandled. Somewhere in there, there's an amazing narrative throughline muddled down by non-sequital babble and melodrama.

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Old 12-06-2012, 12:35 AM   #90
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I can't even count how many times I've seen the OT. I can almost recite the dialogue verbatim.

From the time Luke first mewled "But I was going into Tosche Station to pick up some power converters!", to throwing his little teenie bopper fit on Dagobah (" Oh, I don't even know what I'm doing here! We're wasting our time!") to his girlish scream when Vader told him he was Luke's father...yeah, there's more than enough evidence to call Luke a whiner. There were very good reasons that Yoda didn't want to train him.

Now the Luke in ROTJ was still hotheaded and impulsive, but that was counterbalanced by a comtemplative maturity.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:10 PM   #91
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There has been debate on which was better, Revenge of the Sith or Return of the Jedi. As a person who dislikes the PT, I think this debate has some weight. I think Sith was the best out of the PT, but it's because the last two were gross. (I still think Phantom Menace is one of the worst movies I've seen, along with Dreamcatcher and Transformers 2.)
It might just be the fact I was 6 when Phantom Menace came out and it has a bit of nostalgia, but I really don't think it was worse than Attack of the Clones. It was not good by any means, but at least there were things that I liked. Darth Maul was a much cooler and more intimidating villain than Count Dooku, also he didn't appear 30 minutes before the movie ended. Qui-Gon seemed more like what a Jedi is supposed and Liam Neison is always good. Anakin (as an adult) hadn't been ruined yet. There was no painful love story. IMO Attack of the Clones is one of the worst movies of all time, and Phantom Menace is just one of the worst movies of the 90s.

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Old 12-10-2012, 04:06 PM   #92
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It might just be the fact I was 6 when Phantom Menace came out and it has a bit of nostalgia, but I really don't think it was worse than Attack of the Clones. It was not good by any means, but at least there were things that I liked. Darth Maul was a much cooler and more intimidating villain than Count Dooku, also he didn't appear 30 minutes before the movie ended. Qui-Gon seemed more like what a Jedi is supposed and Liam Neison is always good. Anakin (as an adult) hadn't been ruined yet. There was no painful love story. IMO Attack of the Clones is one of the worst movies of all time, and Phantom Menace is just one of the worst movies of the 90s.
Agreed. Phantom Menace is occasionally entertaining. Attack of the Clones is downright painful. The love story in particular, as you mentioned But every action scene (maybe with the exception of the Jango/Obi-Wan fight) is dull, mindless and feels less realistic than a video game. Even as a nine year old I could tell there was something very wrong about seeing Yoda jump around with a lightsaber.

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Old 12-10-2012, 10:07 PM   #93
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Agreed. Phantom Menace is occasionally entertaining. Attack of the Clones is downright painful. The love story in particular, as you mentioned But every action scene (maybe with the exception of the Jango/Obi-Wan fight) is dull, mindless and feels less realistic than a video game. Even as a nine year old I could tell there was something very wrong about seeing Yoda jump around with a lightsaber.
Agreed, Phantom Menace sucked, but Obi-Wan was pretty quiet the whole movie and Anakin was still a little kid so it didn't do any damage to the characters. Attack of the Clones however ruined; Anakin Skywalker, Stormtroopers, Yoda, and Boba Fett.

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Old 12-10-2012, 10:21 PM   #94
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Agreed, Phantom Menace sucked, but Obi-Wan was pretty quiet the whole movie and Anakin was still a little kid so it didn't do any damage to the characters. Attack of the Clones however ruined; Anakin Skywalker, Stormtroopers, Yoda, and Boba Fett.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he already ruined in RotJ??

Anyway, I agree that Attack of the Clones is by far the worst Star Wars film. The Phantom Menace isn't good, by any stretch of the imagination, but it gets too much flack.

On the other hand, RotS is preposterously overrated. Can't believe people would favor it instead of RotJ.

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Old 12-10-2012, 10:39 PM   #95
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Of the original trilogy it would be my 3rd best and I like it put it atop higher than the prequels, the Ewoks never bothered me.

The movie has many favorites scenes, Jabba's sail barge rescue, the speeder chase, Luke and Vader's final duel, Vader tossing the Emperor down the shaft.

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Old 12-10-2012, 11:00 PM   #96
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Of the original trilogy it would be my 3rd best and I like it put it atop higher than the prequels, the Ewoks never bothered me.

The movie has many favorites scenes, Jabba's sail barge rescue, the speeder chase, Luke and Vader's final duel, Vader tossing the Emperor down the shaft.
This. I agree with all of this.

This thread is so vindicating.

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Old 12-11-2012, 12:59 AM   #97
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he already ruined in RotJ??
Ehhh his death was pretty lame, but in Clones we find out he's just a Clone and that there are billions, maybe trillions of him, totally ruins his mystique.

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On the other hand, RotS is preposterously overrated. Can't believe people would favor it instead of RotJ.
It's easy for people to compare Sith to Jedi. People give often place Sith above Jedi, because it was a watchable decent movie following two huge disappointments, while Jedi was a bit of a let down from the two films it followed.

If Revenge of the Sith was really so much a better movie, then why is there nothing that has become pop culturally relevant. Jabba the Hut and the Emperor for example have become iconic and you find references to them to this day in all kinds of popular media. The only thing I hear about in pop culture from Revenge of the Sith are jokes about Darth Vaders "NO". Hell the only things that have faded into popculture from the prequels are Vaders "NO", Darth Maul, and Jar Jar Binks.

I think that speaks for itself right there.

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Old 12-11-2012, 06:50 AM   #98
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Totally agree with what's being said. ROTS is miles better than TPM or AOTC, but it still fails in many, many ways.

However after TPM and AOTC it felt like a breath of fresh air, which is why people praise it so much. The CGI in it was also tons better than in the previous two, but that doesn't change the fact that every single environment looks fake and every conversation boils down to "walk, talk, stop for a second, walk towards window and look away" or over the shoulder shots.

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Old 12-11-2012, 09:04 PM   #99
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If Revenge of the Sith was really so much a better movie, then why is there nothing that has become pop culturally relevant. Jabba the Hut and the Emperor for example have become iconic and you find references to them to this day in all kinds of popular media. The only thing I hear about in pop culture from Revenge of the Sith are jokes about Darth Vaders "NO". Hell the only things that have faded into popculture from the prequels are Vaders "NO", Darth Maul, and Jar Jar Binks.

I think that speaks for itself right there.
True, the classic trilogy had so many great characters that have been integrated into the culture that somewhere there's always a SW reference in songs, TV, church, school, funerals.

Out of the prequels absolutely no mention of anybody only embarrassments.
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This. I agree with all of this.

This thread is so vindicating.
yeah I think we can close this thread now. Thank you I'll be here all week.

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Old 12-11-2012, 11:13 PM   #100
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i think ford did have character development in the sense of when Leia was sad after talking to luke she told han she wanted to be left alone and he got jelious and stormed off. Then he stopped and came back to apologies. The Han we knew in the first two would not have done that. Even when he thought there was something between liea and luke he said he would walk away cause he cared more for her happiness then himself.
The key element of Han's development in ROTJ is that he was finally "all in" with the RA. He was money motivated until the end of ANH. He was friends with Luke and enamored with Leia in ESB, but he was still going to leave. In ROTJ, he began a RA leader, not just a guy shared a distaste for the empire.

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Well we can agree that Return of the Jedi was helped by the prequels somewhat, and now has elevated it's status as an equal with the other two OT films. Thank you, prequels.
Even before the PT, I felt ROTJ was the best of the OT.

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