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Old 12-10-2012, 02:58 PM   #176
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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It was a stupid point. It's for the sake of better reflecting our society. Superheroes are escapist fare meant to represent the human ideal, fighting off the "bad guys" and striving to do what's right. A really bizarre metaphor for our system of ethics, characters for our kids to look up to identify with.

It's hard to pretend it's truly all-inclusive entertainment when it's a bunch of straight white dudes hanging out and saving the day.

"lol all the CGI alien bad guys look the same lol." Sigh.
Exactly. Well said. It's the idea that when a team has members each bringing something different and unique to the table, it can become greater than the sum of its parts because of those differences. The same kind of imagery depicts a diverse band of rebels vs. the uniform, sterile Empire in Star Wars.

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Old 12-10-2012, 04:07 PM   #177
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

Excellent metaphor. Diverse backgrounds help color the universe, allowing for richer, broader, deeper story. Diversity is a part of life, and more of it can be captured if that diversity is used in storytelling, unless exclusion/racism/sexism/etc is part of the story you're telling, like in a period film or something.

I could almost understand if the comics team wasn't about inclusiveness and teamwork, and filled with real-life diverse team members.

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Old 12-10-2012, 04:12 PM   #178
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon


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Old 12-10-2012, 06:31 PM   #179
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon

...And then Singer missed the point entirely and made them all wear matching black leather "school uniforms."

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Old 12-10-2012, 08:00 PM   #180
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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It was a stupid point. It's for the sake of better reflecting our society. Superheroes are escapist fare meant to represent the human ideal, fighting off the "bad guys" and striving to do what's right. A really bizarre metaphor for our system of ethics, characters for our kids to look up to identify with.

It's hard to pretend it's truly all-inclusive entertainment when it's a bunch of straight white dudes hanging out and saving the day.

"lol all the CGI alien bad guys look the same lol." Sigh.
Shoehorning minorities into a film which doesn't call for any wouldn't improve things one bit, and the fact is two roles were shoehorned into the movies to expressly replace white characters (Fury, Heimdall) with black actors. Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?

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Old 12-10-2012, 08:18 PM   #181
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

The notion that there are properties that "don't call for" minority characters is expressly the problem. One that Marvel doesn't appear to agree with, thankfully.

These stories are products of the 60's. Entertainment was certainly less diverse and inclusive at the time; if a minority character appeared they were either a token or a caricature, usually both. Part of adapting these stories for the screen is adapting them for a modern audience - none of these comics, if written for the first time today, would feature all-white casts, and rarely do you see a piece of media that doesn't prominently feature characters of both genders.

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Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?
Sure, why not?

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Old 12-10-2012, 09:25 PM   #182
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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Sure, why not?
That would be stupid. They made Nick Fury black, isn't that enough?

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I think maybe he was making a joke there, cherokeesam.
Yes, I was being sarcastic.

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Old 12-10-2012, 09:41 PM   #183
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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Shoehorning minorities into a film which doesn't call for any wouldn't improve things one bit, and the fact is two roles were shoehorned into the movies to expressly replace white characters (Fury, Heimdall) with black actors. Let's make them female just to get that diversity train going, eh?
How would adding blacks, women and other minorities be shoehorning them into the Avengers? The Avengers have ALWAYS had a diverse "affirmative action" lineup, even from the days when it was considered groundbreaking and risky to do so. Adding Black Panther or War Machine or Falcon to the lineup wouldn't be just adding blacks for affirmative action's sake, any more than it could be considered catering to feminists to add Wasp or Ms. Marvel or Scarlet Witch. These are PART of the Avengers, and always were.

Avengers have always been on that "diversity train." The current MCU lineup is just the locomotive driving that train --- there's a ton of cars pulling behind it.

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Old 12-10-2012, 09:58 PM   #184
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

Where is this argument in favor of an all-white, all-male, non-diverse Marvel Universe even coming from? The comics themselves feature people of color and women and have for decades. The Avengers specifically have had heroes from different backgrounds since the '60s. The team has never been an all-male bastion of lily whiteness. The Wasp was a founding member -- and a female! -- while Black Panther joined in the mid-'60s. Fans who would like to see more diversity are simply asking that the movies reflect the source material.

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Old 12-10-2012, 10:50 PM   #185
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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How would adding blacks, women and other minorities be shoehorning them into the Avengers? The Avengers have ALWAYS had a diverse "affirmative action" lineup, even from the days when it was considered groundbreaking and risky to do so. Adding Black Panther or War Machine or Falcon to the lineup wouldn't be just adding blacks for affirmative action's sake, any more than it could be considered catering to feminists to add Wasp or Ms. Marvel or Scarlet Witch. These are PART of the Avengers, and always were.

Avengers have always been on that "diversity train." The current MCU lineup is just the locomotive driving that train --- there's a ton of cars pulling behind it.
It's a cheap and easy way to add diversity to your lineup.

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Old 12-10-2012, 11:00 PM   #186
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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That would be stupid. They made Nick Fury black, isn't that enough?


Henrietta Pym for the Avengers sequel!

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Old 12-11-2012, 01:50 AM   #187
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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Henrietta Pym for the Avengers sequel!
I wouldn't hold my breath, and for anyone thinking that Pym is essential, they could always introduce Ultron through Stark. He does robotics too.

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Old 12-11-2012, 02:30 AM   #188
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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I wouldn't hold my breath, and for anyone thinking that Pym is essential, they could always introduce Ultron through Stark. He does robotics too.
bleh

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:01 AM   #189
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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It's a cheap and easy way to add diversity to your lineup.

You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?

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Old 12-11-2012, 06:12 AM   #190
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?
Exactly.

I'm thinking that I'm Venom has never read or even seen the cover of an Avengers comic book in his life. "They shouldn't add women & minorities to an Avengers movie; just because the Avengers comic book had lots of women & minorities doesn't count" 1/2 "WTFs" there

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Old 12-11-2012, 11:14 AM   #191
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

I don't necessarily think that anyone is saying that adding characters that are minorities/women to the Avengers roster counts as shoehorning if they were chosen by Whedon for reasons that serve his story directly. However, if he was told he had to include, say Falcon, just to bump up the number of minorities and then had to work out what to do with him after the fact, then I would agree it's unnecessary. Let the storytellers use whatever characters they feel they need to without hampering them with other concerns.

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Old 12-11-2012, 12:15 PM   #192
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

No major Hollywood film is ever just a story told by a storyteller. There are always secondary concerns that weigh on those involved, and I would argue diversity/audience representation is one of the more valid concerns. One that Whedon himself most likely agrees with and will work toward, given his past work.

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Old 12-11-2012, 12:56 PM   #193
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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I don't necessarily think that anyone is saying that adding characters that are minorities/women to the Avengers roster counts as shoehorning if they were chosen by Whedon for reasons that serve his story directly. However, if he was told he had to include, say Falcon, just to bump up the number of minorities and then had to work out what to do with him after the fact, then I would agree it's unnecessary. Let the storytellers use whatever characters they feel they need to without hampering them with other concerns.
Whedon knows the Avengers. A lot better than some of *you* do. He knows damn well what role Falcon and other minority/female characters play in the team, and I have no doubt in my mind that not only is he *open* to increasing the diversity of the team in Avengers 2, he's counting on it.

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Old 12-11-2012, 02:50 PM   #194
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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You keep saying this but you aren't making sense. The fact remains that the team in the comic books has always had women and minorities. Diversity has been part of the Avengers since their inception. Adding minority characters who have a long and storied comic book history to the movie franchise is simply a natural progression. Or are you going to argue that the Wasp, the Black Panther, the Scarlet Witch, the Falcon, Photon, Ms./Captain Marvel, etc., are just tokens "shoehorned" in to the comics despite the fact that all of them have been associated with The Avengers for decades?
I'm not convinced it could be pulled off well enough.

I think Marvel had or has a plan for their minority characters, but Avengers kinda got in the way, so it looks like Phase II is going to be big with sequels to all of the movies (except Hulk) and Guardians of the Galaxy.

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:01 PM   #195
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

Why is adding white characters easier to pull off than adding minority characters, Venom?

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It's a major reason the X-Men really broke out in the 90s, both as a comic and a cartoon
And before that in the 70s, when they added people of different nationalities, including a black girl. "Diversity: It's not just for black people any more." When X-Men was all white it flopped. Fantastic Four - love 'em, I do, I do - lost their importance and relevance and commercial appeal a while ago. Same, to a lesser degree, with the Justice League. Meanwhile Avengers, X-Men and other ardently diverse properties have continued to flourish and continued to capture the masses just by showing up and looking like the modern world.

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:06 PM   #196
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I'm not convinced it could be pulled off well enough.
Because it's so challenging to write a character who's not a white American dude...

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:10 PM   #197
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

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Because it's so challenging to write a character who's not a white American dude...


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Originally Posted by DrCosmic
Why is adding white characters easier to pull off than adding minority characters, Venom?
How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for heroes. Especially one they don't know about. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal.

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:13 PM   #198
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How many black readers do you honestly think make up the industry? Black people may unite to see Diary of a Mad Black Woman, but try getting them to unite for heroes. Especially one they don't know about. It isn't that the movie would turn out bad. It just won't have the appeal.
Ugh.

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:47 PM   #199
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

my pet peeve:

racists that don't know they are racist.

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Old 12-11-2012, 03:50 PM   #200
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Default Re: Changing the roster for Avengers 2?

The big four are a must: Hulk, Cap, Iron Man, Thor. Black Widow adds a female presence. Hawkeye is unnecessary and could drop from the roster at any point.

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