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#51 | |
Side-Kick
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As for Riddler, he would have been similar to Joker simply because of the kind of threat he provides and the kind of mental strain he would've wanted to implement would be to push Bruce in a way very similar to Joker. Not that he COULDN'T have made him different and interesting, but there would have been so much complaining about the similarity, and lack of a really physical villain.
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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle Last edited by TheBat812; 12-11-2012 at 02:27 AM. |
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#52 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
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#53 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2012
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What exactly does Riddler have? |
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#54 | |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Aug 2012
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#55 | ||||
Shadow On The Run
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Last edited by BatmanBeyond; 12-11-2012 at 05:09 AM. |
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#56 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed bane, just felt it would have been better without all this full circle stuff IMO. I really think Nolan was onto something by making fresh and different batman movies in each outing and tdkr definitely felt like a full circle kind of movie. Some love it, some don't. Nothing wrong with having differing opinions.
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#57 | |
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
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You're so right, there was no need to bring anything back to Batman Begins to make the trilogy feel whole and complete. Take the recent Toy Story trilogy as an example. Toy Story 3 didn't rehash or revisit anything from the original movie. It felt new, unique, and still felt connected to the previous movies and delivered a satisfying conclusion. The jarring thing is Batman Begins and The Dark Knight were both so unique, and yet both felt connected to each other. TDK took what Begins left off on, namely the escalation Gordon mentioned, Joker, the mob adapting to Batman's presence, a new D.A. since Finch was murdered, Rachel's word to Bruce about them being together one day etc. All set up in Begins, and therefore TDK felt like a natural continuation. I expected the same of TDKR, but the plot furniture was basically just a polished up rehash of Batman Begins.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 12-11-2012 at 09:32 AM. |
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#58 |
The Dark Knight
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^ I agree with all that. I think the movie would've been cooler without any LOS ties, just having Bane as a dictator with his own band of mercenaries.
This movie pretty much cements my dislike of third movies trying to make things "full circle". It's like the film equivalent of TV show's "Clip episode".
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#59 |
Banned User
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Sadly, I think people expected so much out of TDKR even though going back to the LoS made so much sense with it pertaining very closely to Bruce Wayne's arc.
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#60 |
Iron Captain
Join Date: Jun 2006
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In retrospect, Two-Face's death and Batman taking the fall for him was the Joker card of TDK. It just played out much differently than many speculated it would.
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#61 |
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I think the problem lies with the character itself. Bane was basically created as a gimmick and a comic stunt back in the 90's, and his character's peak is breaking Batman's back.
Aside from that, he's pretty much a one note character. Aside from TDKR, he really hasn't had a decent story and certainly isnt anywhere near the complexity of characters such as Joker, Two-Face , Ra's Al Ghul, or Catwoman. Nolan's version is the best on screen, including animated versions of the character, but even then, Tom Hardy's natural charm and charisma isn't utilized to make the character more than what the comics presented. Ditto with Talia who imo, was less complex then she was in BTAS back in the 90's. Ultimately the Bane character , imo, doesn't have much going for him. He works as the final villan for the saga thematically but with Bane, there really isn't much there, there. |
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#62 | |
Side-Kick
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TDKR rightfully uses much of what Ra's did, because of the characters' ties to him, and how that ties back to Bruce. Yes, some basic plot points return, but to dismiss the film as just a rehash, just shows how little screenwriting experience a person has. I doubt many people could come up with a film this layered that brilliantly uses the elements it takes from Begins to heighten the symmetry between Ra's/Bruce/Bane/Talia. I've heard quite a few ideas for a third film from fans, but have yet to find one that is truly a decent idea for a conclusion. They all just come off as just "another Batman adventure." Which I'm sure we'll get post-Nolan, but definitely didn't want to see from Nolan. I'm sure Nolan could have made something interesting with every villain from Batman's rogue, but that doesn't mean that they're the best character to tell the conclusion of this particular story of Bruce Wayne from a character and cinematic perspective. In reading many people's gripes with TDKR and hearing the praise for TDK, it's exactly like DACrowe said, many seem to turn a blind eye to the same kinds of 'issues' that are found in all three movies. But all of TDK's strengths are also present in TDKR, even if sometimes it's not quite as succinctly executed. Not that the film is devoid of errors, but if you appreciated the subtleties of TDK, it's surprising that you don't find the same depth in TDKR, because it IS there.
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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle Last edited by TheBat812; 12-11-2012 at 01:47 PM. |
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#63 | |
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#64 | ||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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What have you been saying? That the only reason it's disliked is because it didn't meet expectations? What expectations are these? A movie with a strong original story like the previous two movies? That's what I'm talking about about when I said I expected the same of TDKR. A director establishes a level of quality you naturally expect them to continue with it.
But expectations aside, you can get a movie you were not expecting, and love it, or you can get a movie that even exceeds expectations. That happened with me for BB and TDK. Happened with a lot of people actually. TDK blew away most people with it being as good as it was. With TDKR, I was let down, and not because it didn't deliver what I was expecting, but because what I got was inferior material, rehashed plot points, and generally a lot of lazy uninspired writing. I would have happily praised a movie that didn't give me what I was expecting, but delivered a great movie nonetheless. But I didn't get that. Quote:
In fact bringing it back to the same foes again trying to destroy the city again with a Wayne Enterprises device was a regression not a progression. Quote:
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I don't claim to be a brilliant screen writer. Neither does 90% of the fan base or the audience. Does that mean we should lap up everything we're given with a big smile on our face because we're not qualified or talented enough to write movies ourselves? That's like saying we should be happy getting served a mediocre meal in a five star restaurant because we're not qualified chefs. Quote:
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#65 |
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To those saying TDK and BB also had plot holes that are not being discussed as frequent as TDKR, I believe it is most likely because the plot holes found in TDKR are valid reasons for why some people do not like the film.
I don't think you can find many people who say they don't like TDK because they didn't like how we didn't see how Joker got out of the Penthouse with Batman outside after he just saved Rachel, or how Batman showed up out of no where to stop Harvey when he had one of Jokers men tied up, or how Joker rigged an entire hospital to blow.--Sure, these can viewed as plot holes, but imo, don't ruin the overall experience of the film. Compare that to the criticism of TDKR: -with Bruce having a broken back and being able to climb a pit 3 times, return back to Gotham, fight bane again...all after a random guy punched him in the back. -or how Bruce just shows up in a Gotham under siege with no money or indication of how he got there -Talia's death scene -Not really knowing why Bane is doing what he is doing. We know he was ex-communicated, but wants to fulfill Ra's destiny...because? Fan speculation tells us because he wanted to prove he was superior to Bruce, to Ras, because he hated those with power---if most here were asked what was ra's motivation, what was The Joker's motivation, we would get most likely a consistent answer...doesn't seem like it's the same with Bane IMO. I just believe that some of these plot holes (IMO), that have been discussed on this site at least, are discussed more than TDK because they seem to take away the overall enjoyment of the film. |
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#66 | |
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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle |
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#67 |
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But I don't think you're gonna find many people who dislike TDK because of Harvey's performance, the stiltedness of the acting in the rooftop scene, the bat voice, and one liners.
It seems like you can find people who dislike TDKR for the examples I gave. And regarding Bane, he may very well be doing what he is doing because of the protector/bodyguard type love and devotion, but nothing really pinpoints that IS why he is doing it. We know he protected Talia, he loves her, so IS that why he is willing to destroy an entire city? Because of the protector/bodyguard role? I don't believe it is really stated that's why he is doing this. He tells Bruce he is the LOS, here to full fill Ra's destiny, end the borrowed time Gotham is living on. We also know though that he was ex-communicated. So why, if ex-communicated, does he still want to destroy Gotham? We are never really told WHY he is doing what he is doing. We know what he WANTS to do, but we don't really know WHY he wants to do it. And the main villain of your film should not have multiple different motivations |
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#68 | |
Iron Captain
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Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
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#69 |
Third Man
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I agree with all of that. The only thing is, I expected Nolan to go deeper with the mirroring between Bruce and Bane. I mean, it's all there, but it feels like Nolan barely scratched the surface, when compared to the duality between Batman/Joker/Dent in TDK.
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#70 | ||
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#71 |
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The layers are not found in a basic story....
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"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness." - Aristotle |
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#72 | |
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#73 | |
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#74 |
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I actually thought Bane was well portrayed as a nefariously intelligent bad-guy and that the main purpose of the LOS's return was to illustrate the idea of consequences and, in a way, respond to those who may have figured that Joker vindicated or lessened the evil of Ra's' actions.
Bane is kind of a deconstruction of the "well intentioned" part of Ra's' "well intentioned extremist." Like Bruce, when he was found in that prison he was "lost," but whereas Bruce (and Ra's) had a previous context in which to compare their new codes and philosophies, Bane was born in darkness and basically took to the LOS code and creed at it's starkest and most absolute. He even recognizes that he doesn't fit into the code: he's a "necessary evil," fully expecting to die alongside his city-full of victims. And I kind of agree that if the Joker's plans seem well executed to you, than you really shouldn't harp on Bane's plans all that much. And there was no way that the LOS defeat in Begins had destroyed their organization-somewhere there was going to be a remnant that would rise to avenge their defeat. And I really couldn't come up with my own scenario that would stand a chance at matching the Joker's rampage without calling back up the LOS in turn. You needed the stakes raised high, and the mob or singular bad-guys not be-decked in make-up or a purple outfit weren't going to cut it for the whole audience. The more imaginative bad-guys can be executed masterfully, but for an ending to the trilogy their threat scale needed to be raised.
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#75 |
Web Ninja
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Bane was entertaining. Whether Tom was hamming it up in ADR or in his last significant words in the movie (the Blackgate prison scene), or when more serious and introspective like the monologue in the Pit. He broke the Bat. That's what makes him good to me.
In terms of structure, it's true there's no big philosophical debates going back and forth here with Bane and Batman/Bruce like with Ra's, The Joker, Two-face, or to a lesser extent, Talia (some of her philosophical arguing with Bruce has a double-meaning). But it doesn't bother me enough to be disappointed. More of a twist on the LoS philosophy (more originality) could have worked for their return but I've made my peace with it as is. |
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