Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

hmm, i think it is pretty well known that loki has been trouble though. Volstagg saying silver tongue, and "loki's always been one for mischief" unless you mean he has connections with like.. a few individuals. Cause I don't see Loki being viewed as the "better" person by others. He has always been a trickster. Unless you mean loki has connections to individual people.

ugh. i hope we get something soon. i want to see some footage real soon. I still think though that thor needs loki's help to get him to other realms. we'll see

I do mean individual connections more yes. Athough you understand what I mean, if I had a choice to deal with someone who might pull a prank or a bit of mischief with me, or someone who may decide to bash me and my people in the head with a large hammer, (not to mention eat ALL the pop tarts!) then I'd prefer to deal with the mischief maker any day.... and Thor hasn't been a changed man very long so again, some groups of the 9 realms may really not like him and not realize he's not still the same guy.

So much for feeling better, btw. Gonna be a rough night apparently.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I do mean individual connections more yes. Athough you understand what I mean, if I had a choice to deal with someone who might pull a prank or a bit of mischief with me, or someone who may decide to bash me and my people in the head with a large hammer, (not to mention eat ALL the pop tarts!) then I'd prefer to deal with the mischief maker any day.... and Thor hasn't been a changed man very long so again, some groups of the 9 realms may really not like him and not realize he's not still the same guy.

So much for feeling better, btw. Gonna be a rough night apparently.

as would I. HOWEVER. I assume most know about Loki's evil shenanigans. I wouldn't trust it. I would cautiously go to Thor. lol bash

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

as would I. HOWEVER. I assume most know about Loki's evil shenanigans. I wouldn't trust it. I would cautiously go to Thor. lol bash

Okie dokey but you best hide the Pop Tarts

as for what the other realms know, we don't know if they know anything about Loki's evil shenanigans, the royal family may have kept things quiet after his "death" in Thor 1, to try to keep more positive memories of Loki. and most other of the realms probably don't care about what happens on Midgard, or don't know, it's not like there is some tv news network or rag newspaper spilling all the royal family of Asgard's secrets all over the 9 realms. So really no way of knowing for sure what the other realms know about Thor's change and Loki's change in Thor 1, until Thor 2 comes out, likely the other realms would not know about either though.

[elizah72]

Tom continues to drop very interesting quotes in his interviews...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

starts talking Thor 2 at about 2:08

I'm trying to think of things I can say without ruining it... I mean they go back a long way those two, Thor and Loki they have a very complex and interesting relationship and they're both still alive and still capable of feeling things... What I'm really excited by is it's not, what we've done this time is you haven't seen this before. You really haven't. Not in Thor and not in Avengers. It's a new thing.

Now maybe he's referring to the movie in general and not the Thor - Loki relationship specifically, but it seems like he is referring to Thor-Loki due to the rest of the quote. And what have we not seen before with these two? We've certainly seen them fight plenty of times both in the movies and the comics. So it does seem like we will be maybe seeing them working together, maybe mending that relationship some (whether that will last, will have to wait and see, but it seems like this may be on the table for this film) - which goes somewhat along with Lawden's spoiler about them working together, even if the Italy footage indicated otherwise.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Thor 2 talk starts at about 1:00

Interviewer: Can we look forward to some tussles with Chris and Christopher Eccleston and you allying with Christopher Eccleston the doctor himself as he was.
Tom: I couldn't possibly commit on either side of that line. Um, but Loki's the Norse God of Mischief and therefore capable of guile and deception and manipulation and charm and provocation. So yeah he's got his firecrackers out for sure.

Hmmm... but which side will he be tossing those firecrackers at? LOL Probably both. But seriously again in the context of the question, it seems likely he may be using at least some of that guile etc on Malekith (which is something I supposed early on anyway).

From the news thread...

Originally Posted by jaqua99

yeah, it's reallty confusing lol. I really can't see anyone besides surtur, or someone on surturs level being able to kill him. I mean, it doesn't matter who, but odin is THAT powerful that he shouldn't be killed by ANYONE who is that significant below him in power, which would be just about everyone in the mcu. Odin and surtur are galaxy busters in their own right.

A question on this, Laufey tried to kill Odin with an icicle. TWICE. Do you think he would have tried if he knew he could not succeed? Wouldn't you think he'd know if he wasn't powerful enough to take Odin out? I dont think he was that powerful in the MCU (especially without the casket). I think we have to keep in mind that MCU Odin, like most of the other characters, are just not as powerful as they are in the comics. A few, like Malekith, it seems are significantly more powerful than their comic book versions.

[American Maid]

Jon said:

Originally Posted by jaqua99
yeah, it's reallty confusing lol. I really can't see anyone besides surtur, or someone on surturs level being able to kill him. I mean, it doesn't matter who, but odin is THAT powerful that he shouldn't be killed by ANYONE who is that significant below him in power, which would be just about everyone in the mcu. Odin and surtur are galaxy busters in their own right.

Originally Posted by elizah72

A question on this, Laufey tried to kill Odin with an icicle. TWICE. Do you think he would have tried if he knew he could not succeed? Wouldn't you think he'd know if he wasn't powerful enough to take Odin out? I dont think he was that powerful in the MCU (especially without the casket). I think we have to keep in mind that MCU Odin, like most of the other characters, are just not as powerful as they are in the comics. A few, like Malekith, it seems are significantly more powerful than their comic book versions.

Laufey was fairly certain he could succeed because Odin was in the Odinsleep. Odin not in the Odinsleep, from what I read and to hear Jon, BigThor, and everyone else talk about it, is fearsomely powerful. That's one element that baffles me about this film. How is it that Odin can't protect Frigga, can't help Thor travel to other realms and/or recruit help, etc.? Surely they won't put him in Odinsleep *again*. So he must be incapacitated. But what is capable of incapacitating such a powerful being??

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Tom continues to drop very interesting quotes in his interviews...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

starts talking Thor 2 at about 2:08



Now maybe he's referring to the movie in general and not the Thor - Loki relationship specifically, but it seems like he is referring to Thor-Loki due to the rest of the quote. And what have we not seen before with these two? We've certainly seen them fight plenty of times both in the movies and the comics. So it does seem like we will be maybe seeing them working together, maybe mending that relationship some (whether that will last, will have to wait and see, but it seems like this may be on the table for this film) - which goes somewhat along with Lawden's spoiler about them working together, even if the Italy footage indicated otherwise.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Thor 2 talk starts at about 1:00



Hmmm... but which side will he be tossing those firecrackers at? LOL Probably both. But seriously again in the context of the question, it seems likely he may be using at least some of that guile etc on Malekith (which is something I supposed early on anyway).

From the news thread...



A question on this, Laufey tried to kill Odin with an icicle. TWICE. Do you think he would have tried if he knew he could not succeed? Wouldn't you think he'd know if he wasn't powerful enough to take Odin out? I dont think he was that powerful in the MCU (especially without the casket). I think we have to keep in mind that MCU Odin, like most of the other characters, are just not as powerful as they are in the comics. A few, like Malekith, it seems are significantly more powerful than their comic book versions.

hmmm it seems tom is DEFINITLY tlaking about thor and loki. If we are seeing them work together, again, that is sometihng from the simonson run. Just more stuff from that arc are piling onto this movie lol.

Yes, everything has been powered down in the MCU. However, Odin was in the Odinsleep when laufye tried to kill him, correct? Laufey didn't try to confront him in a powerful state. Of course odin isn't a galaxy buster in the mcu (don't think so lol) but with everyone scaled down, he still should be significantly more powerful than ANYONE. I mean, I know you haven't read much of the books, but to say otherwise is just well, its too out of character :P. I am not sure you are getting the point I am trying to get across. So I will try to make it so. Making Malekith as powerful as Odin in the MCU, or Odin being able to be killed by Malekith, or anything of the sort, would be like making Captain America as powerful as Thor in the MCU. Better put, it would be like scaling Thor down to captain america level in the MCU. That just simply shouldn't happen. yes, tohr has been downgraded from the books, but Thor is THAT much more powerful than cap, that even in the mcu, even when scaled down, they shouldn't be on the same level. That's how it is with Odin. Odin is SO FAR beyond any character introduced in the MCU, that scaling him down to say..thor's equal, or to malekith being able to fight him is. just ridiculous!! lol Odin isn't a guy who Thor can "give a good fight" Odin is a guy who is capable of taking on comic book versions of say, Thor, Hulk, Ironman, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Loki, Malekith at the same time. With EASE. Beta Ray Bill is on Thor's level, and he's busted planets. Odin has destroyed Galaxies as SIDE EFFECTS of his battles. Surtur destroyed a galaxy to forge twilight

While Odin has been downgraded significantly, he still HAS to be the most powerful one. Like I said, it would be like making captain america as powerful as thor. Odin is that much more powerful, that they can't just put him on the same level as everyone else WITH OUT PIS (such as Odinsleep, yada yada) And we know he is more powerful. He's been in a weak state. But we saw what he's capable of a little bit. You could see the fear he struck into Thor's eyes when Odin was getting pissed, and about to give him daddy lessons. Odin spoke an enchantment into a hammer. He brought Thor back to life. He stripped Thor of ALL his powers. Completely turned him into a mortal. Odin is certainly the most powerful character in the MCU so far.

and I quote Loki when talking about Odin in Thor 1 "The most powerful being in the 9 realms" Loki himself said it. and hell, if its anything, the official mcu wiki says Odin is by far the most powerful being introduced in the MCU so far. So yeah, Odin has been downscaled. Thor has been downscaled. The only character not downscaled from the books is Captain America. But with everyone being downscaled, Odin is STILL the most powerful being in the 9 realms. And even if he is downscaled, malekith being on his level, or hell, him being on thor's level is just wrong. I can PROMISE you, a lot of comic book fans will not be happy. I will be furious. But they aren't idiots, and I'm sure the only thing weakening Odin to someone else's level will be plot, like in the first movie. Cause yeah, though he isn't on his comic book power level (no one is except Cap), he certainly is, and sohuld be the most powerful character in the MCU yet.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Jon said:




Laufey was fairly certain he could succeed because Odin was in the Odinsleep. Odin not in the Odinsleep, from what I read and to hear Jon, BigThor, and everyone else talk about it, is fearsomely powerful. That's one element that baffles me about this film. How is it that Odin can't protect Frigga, can't help Thor travel to other realms and/or recruit help, etc.? Surely they won't put him in Odinsleep *again*. So he must be incapacitated. But what is capable of incapacitating such a powerful being??

The tesseract.

Cosmic Cubes>Any Skyfather. IF Odin is incapacited again, it will most likely be due to that, and not to another characters power

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

The tesseract.

Cosmic Cubes>Any Skyfather. IF Odin is incapacited again, it will most likely be due to that, and not to another characters power

Yes, that's right. And now that you mention it, I remember CherokeeSam had suggested such a plot development, too.

The other possible plot device I can think of is "dark magic". If Odin used it to conjure Thor to Earth, maybe it weakens him. Does that sound plausible given how any such "dark magic" is established in 616 and given Odin's abilities?

It doesn't seem like there are many plot devices that can manage to weaken Odin.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Yes, that's right. And now that you mention it, I remember CherokeeSam had suggested such a plot development, too.

The other possible plot device I can think of is "dark magic". If Odin used it to conjure Thor to Earth, maybe it weakens him. Does that sound plausible given how any such "dark magic" is established in 616 and given Odin's abilities?

It doesn't seem like there are many plot devices that can manage to weaken Odin.

Not too sure about that. But in 616 Odin sending Thor to another realm most definitally should not weaken him.

I really hope there won't be a weakened Odin. Whenever Surtur shows up, I think we will finally get a good display of Odin's destructive power.

I mean, there HAS to be plot to keep Odin fom solving all the issues himself. But just cause there is PIS, doesn't mean Odin IS far more powerful than everyone introduced. I mean, he stripped Thor of his powers, that's a pretty damn powerful feat

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Not too sure about that. But in 616 Odin sending Thor to another realm most definitally should not weaken him.

I really hope there won't be a weakened Odin. Whenever Surtur shows up, I think we will finally get a good display of Odin's destructive power.

I mean, there HAS to be plot to keep Odin fom solving all the issues himself. But just cause there is PIS, doesn't mean Odin IS far more powerful than everyone introduced. I mean, he stripped Thor of his powers, that's a pretty damn powerful feat

I agree. I'm sufficiently impressed by the magnitude of Odin's powers that I'm hard pressed to think of how they will keep him out of it enough for Thor to have enough to do--lol.

Well, if dark energy is an unlikely culprit, I guess that leaves us with the Tesseract.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Jon said:Laufey was fairly certain he could succeed because Odin was in the Odinsleep. Odin not in the Odinsleep, from what I read and to hear Jon, BigThor, and everyone else talk about it, is fearsomely powerful. That's one element that baffles me about this film. How is it that Odin can't protect Frigga, can't help Thor travel to other realms and/or recruit help, etc.? Surely they won't put him in Odinsleep *again*. So he must be incapacitated. But what is capable of incapacitating such a powerful being??

The first time Laufey tried to kill him with an icicle was on Jotunheim when he came to rescue Thor and the gang. Allfather was looking "tired" but he was not in Odinsleep.

One thing I wondered about, and this may be my Loki fangirl talking, but hear me out. I mean, it's sort of disappointing to me that it's a supposedly very advanced civilization and all they can do for a person who has basically had an emotional/mental breakdown and commits crimes is throw them in prison and toss away the key (it would seem). So I wondered if Odin trying to use his power to straighten Loki out, and that could be part of his distraction at first. MCU Odin cares A LOT more about Loki than Comics Odin, and he blames himself for Loki's behavior to some extent I'm sure, so I find it hard to believe he wouldn't want to try to find a way to repair the damage if that's possible.

For instance, I'm also not entirely sure that it won't be revealed that the staff/tesseract did have an effect over Loki during the time of Avengers and so Odin may have to deal with helping him get that out of his system (not that Loki still doesn't have issues!). Per the deleted scene Loki says "It effects everyone differently." I've previously wondered if it could be exacerbating Loki's fragile and very angry mental state. Clearly Odin's two ravens were there, watching the conversation between Loki and Thor for a reason, and it may have revealed to Odin how or why Loki's mental state had deteriorated so much (so much that he was lying to himself about what had happened back on Asgard). And Thor asks "who controls the would be king" indicating that he thinks Loki is being controlled by someone or something. This may be more of a hope, than what will happen, admittedly. However, to read the Italian film clip summary, it makes Loki seem pretty out of his mind, and he's not going to go along and help Thor, or be much help to him if he did, if he's like that. Not to mention he'd be a serious danger to Jane and so not too smart of Thor to go on a trek with both of them. So I think that something needs to stabilize him at least some, I'd think and I'm not so sure that just a hug and a talk from Frigga will do it. Tony didn't mention having scenes with Tom, but they have been pretty mum about Loki, and certainly after what happen in Thor 1, I can't believe they would not have at least 1 scene, if not a story arc of their own to be continued. And if Odin finds he needs to mess with the Tesseract in order to free Loki of it, then that could be a legitimate reason why he is distracted/unable to do much during this time, while he does battle with that power (and I mean in more of an other world battle of the mind than a physical battle). So maybe he frees Loki of it, but still has to battle that power, even after, or is sent out of commission for a time from that battle. Then Thor becomes King in the interim. And maybe during the course of Odin's battle, the presence in the Tesseract is freed and turns Algrim to Kurse. It would also make much more sense for why Thor would give Loki yet another chance to work with him and potentially redeem himself, if he believed that the Tesseract was effecting him during Avengers and now he is free of it.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

hmmm it seems tom is DEFINITLY tlaking about thor and loki. If we are seeing them work together, again, that is sometihng from the simonson run. Just more stuff from that arc are piling onto this movie lol.

good!

Odin isn't a guy who Thor can "give a good fight" Odin is a guy who is capable of taking on comic book versions of say, Thor, Hulk, Ironman, Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, Loki, Malekith at the same time.

I bet Tony didn't realize that was a possibility when he signed up for the role. LOL Poor guy has a lot of trouble getting around with the eye patch on, I'm not sure how well he'd do acting all that out. LOL

Originally Posted by jaqua99

The tesseract.

Cosmic Cubes>Any Skyfather. IF Odin is incapacited again, it will most likely be due to that, and not to another characters power

And as mentioned above, if it's determined to have an effect or hold over Loki then that may give Odin a good reason to be messing with it, and not just lock it away for safe keeping.

and I think the most powerful being in the 9 realms line is in the deleted scene, no? So not necessarily MCU canon, but I do understand he should be that (otherwise he would not be king!)

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

The first time Laufey tried to kill him with an icicle was on Jotunheim when he came to rescue Thor and the gang. Allfather was looking "tired" but he was not in Odinsleep.

One thing I wondered about, and this may be my Loki fangirl talking, but hear me out. I mean, it's sort of disappointing to me that it's a supposedly very advanced civilization and all they can do for a person who has basically had an emotional/mental breakdown and commits crimes is throw them in prison and toss away the key (it would seem). So I wondered if Odin trying to use his power to straighten Loki out, and that could be part of his distraction at first. MCU Odin cares A LOT more about Loki than Comics Odin, and he blames himself for Loki's behavior to some extent I'm sure, so I find it hard to believe he wouldn't want to try to find a way to repair the damage if that's possible.

For instance, I'm also not entirely sure that it won't be revealed that the staff/tesseract did have an effect over Loki during the time of Avengers and so Odin may have to deal with helping him get that out of his system (not that Loki still doesn't have issues!). Per the deleted scene Loki says "It effects everyone differently." I've previously wondered if it could be exacerbating Loki's fragile and very angry mental state. Clearly Odin's two ravens were there, watching the conversation between Loki and Thor for a reason, and it may have revealed to Odin how or why Loki's mental state had deteriorated so much (so much that he was lying to himself about what had happened back on Asgard). And Thor asks "who controls the would be king" indicating that he thinks Loki is being controlled by someone or something. This may be more of a hope, than what will happen, admittedly. However, to read the Italian film clip summary, it makes Loki seem pretty out of his mind, and he's not going to go along and help Thor, or be much help to him if he did, if he's like that. Not to mention he'd be a serious danger to Jane and so not too smart of Thor to go on a trek with both of them. So I think that something needs to stabilize him at least some, I'd think and I'm not so sure that just a hug and a talk from Frigga will do it. Tony didn't mention having scenes with Tom, but they have been pretty mum about Loki, and certainly after what happen in Thor 1, I can't believe they would not have at least 1 scene, if not a story arc of their own to be continued. And if Odin finds he needs to mess with the Tesseract in order to free Loki of it, then that could be a legitimate reason why he is distracted/unable to do much during this time, while he does battle with that power (and I mean in more of an other world battle of the mind than a physical battle). So maybe he frees Loki of it, but still has to battle that power, even after, or is sent out of commission for a time from that battle. Then Thor becomes King in the interim. And maybe during the course of Odin's battle, the presence in the Tesseract is freed and turns Algrim to Kurse. It would also make much more sense for why Thor would give Loki yet another chance to work with him and potentially redeem himself, if he believed that the Tesseract was effecting him during Avengers and now he is free of it.



good!



I bet Tony didn't realize that was a possibility when he signed up for the role. LOL Poor guy has a lot of trouble getting around with the eye patch on, I'm not sure how well he'd do acting all that out. LOL



And as mentioned above, if it's determined to have an effect or hold over Loki then that may give Odin a good reason to be messing with it, and not just lock it away for safe keeping.

and I think the most powerful being in the 9 realms line is in the deleted scene, no? So not necessarily MCU canon, but I do understand he should be that (otherwise he would not be king!)

i'm not sure where it was said. But it may not be canon, but it's obvious. I don't think the tesseract had an affect on Loki. He's not gunna just "get better through finding himself" he was how he was in the avengers for his own selfish motives

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

i'm not sure where it was said. But it may not be canon, but it's obvious. I don't think the tesseract had an affect on Loki. He's not gunna just "get better through finding himself" he was how he was in the avengers for his own selfish motives

well another recent Tom quote... "Everybody upstairs in space is going to have an opinion on what happened..." is a pretty strong indicator that people will have *different* opinions on all of that, as they have here, so don't be surprised if the topic is discussed by the characters in Thor 2, right or wrong.

And a large part of figuring out plot, as important if not more important to what characters can or can't do and how powerful they are, is figuring out character motivation. Why would a character realistically do something? (as I tried to talk about some in the previous post).

For instance, it has been brought up that the Tesseract is one of the few things that would probably be as powerful as Odin and could keep him out of the picture while Thor possibly takes over as King at least temporarily. But what legitimate reason does Odin have to mess with the Tesseract, and not just lock it away with all of his other dangerous toys? Maybe you can come up with some other reasons, but I do think that if Odin believes he can help Loki by fighting the Tesseract that would give him significant motivation to do so. It would also explain why Loki may seem very distressed and irrational in the beginning (per the Italy clips) but then later be stable enough to help Thor on whatever he needs help with (although still, I'm sure, full of mischief), and would also give Thor realistic motivation for why he might suddenly trust Loki and give him yet another chance. So... character motivation... character motivation... character motivation... You can't just have Thor hand Odin the Tesseract and have him start messing with it for no good reason, among other things that need character motivation to explain the actions (per the above).

And honestly I'm going to be terribly disappointed in Odin if he just locks Loki up and does nothing else to try to help him back onto a better path. He may not be his blood but he had Loki as a son almost as long as he had Thor, and he appeared to have cared for Loki, and mourned when he "died". I guarantee they will not be ignoring that relationship in Thor 2, it was too big a part of the first film, and too big a conflict to not resolve. It would be pretty outrageous to ignore it completely.

[Rock Sexton]

Originally Posted by elizah72

And honestly I'm going to be terribly disappointed in Odin if he just locks Loki up and does nothing else to try to help him back onto a better path. He may not be his blood but he had Loki as a son almost as long as he had Thor, and he appeared to have cared for Loki, and mourned when he "died". I guarantee they will not be ignoring that relationship in Thor 2, it was too big a part of the first film, and too big a conflict to not resolve. It would be pretty outrageous to ignore it completely.

C'mon .... as if there's any doubt.

[jaqua99]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is ignored. I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever. I could care less either way, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. The reaching out to loki needs to end. Thor did it in two movies, Odin is wise. Don't be surprised of Odin isn't very sympathetic towards Loki's actions. Thor, his "prized" son for a thousand years goes to jotenheim due to some classic loki manipulation, and Odin banishes Thor to teacg him humility. His other son loki who he loves, declared war on mankind, allied himself with thanos (who we can assume odin knows) and whateever else **** he did. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he just locks loki up for a while, his actions against thor's were strict. And loki's actions were far worse than Thor's.

[elizah72]

See this is where this trying to figure out plot here gets really frustrating for me. I really feel this is a legitimate idea that could fit quite neatly into the puzzle but when people despise a character this much it's impossible for them to think he could be written any other way. and yes, I understand you despise him in a love to hate him kind of way, but still you despise him and can't see him written any other way and that is frustrating when trying to figure out plot because the writers and Marvel can do whatever they want with him. They don't have to exactly follow what's been done in the comics or mythology already. They already haven't so I think it's likely they won't do the same old, same old, as this continues. I've seen more than a few quotes that make me think that they may surprise a lot of people with the direction they take Loki in. They could "cook up something completely new with the same ingredients" so to speak.

Odin was strict with Thor, yes, maybe even harsh, but Thor seriously needed that massive kick in the pants, and reminder of who is King and who is not, or else he would never have changed. Nothing else would have done it *for that character*. The dynamic between Loki and Odin is very different. Thor didn't have the issue finding out he was lied to all his life about who he was and what his purpose in life was to be, or doubts about if he was loved as much as his sibling, and feelings of inadequacy all his life in comparison to his sibling... therefore, the dynamic between Odin-Loki is very different this way, and so as a result how Odin handles him should be different from the way he handled Thor.

I'm not going to continue to argue about the rest of the stuff you said. I've said my peace on that so many times it exhausts me. we've had that run around I've had that run around a few times with different people as you know. And as you know I could argue and rebut until next November about all of that. All I ask is that you keep a bit of an open mind in the discussion, especially if you can't figure any other options that would fill the same plot holes and requirements. Because honestly I'm starting to feel like I can't even discuss the potential Loki plot here out in the open due to closemindedness on what they might do with the character. Which is sad because I came into this due to that MCU character.

*sigh* another subject I guess... well while looking around on screenrant.com at some old articles about the potential directors, I found this quote interesting...

Marvel’s interest in [Brian] Kirk was openly acknowledged as being related to his work on Game of Thrones; the studio approved of his ability to handle an ensemble cast and deliver a complex, yet grounded, take on the fantasy genre. It was presumably Jenkins’ Emmy-nominated pilot for The Killing – which likewise juggled multiple characters and narrative threads – that earned her attention from Marvel heads.

http://screenrant.com/thor-2-directo...-sandy-132968/

So while the movie is certainly called Thor The Dark World, it would seem that the intention will be to involve the rest of the characters much more, with more story arcs and narrative threads to deal with, which should be fun.

Originally Posted by Rock Sexton

C'mon .... as if there's any doubt.

Some people want it to be ignored I guess... *sigh...*

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

See this is where this trying to figure out plot here gets really frustrating for me. I really feel this is a legitimate idea that could fit quite neatly into the puzzle but when people despise a character this much it's impossible for them to think he could be written any other way. and yes, I understand you despise him in a love to hate him kind of way, but still you despise him and can't see him written any other way and that is frustrating when trying to figure out plot because the writers and Marvel can do whatever they want with him. They don't have to exactly follow what's been done in the comics or mythology already. They already haven't so I think it's likely they won't do the same old, same old, as this continues. I've seen more than a few quotes that make me think that they may surprise a lot of people with the direction they take Loki in. They could "cook up something completely new with the same ingredients" so to speak.

Odin was strict with Thor, yes, maybe even harsh, but Thor seriously needed that massive kick in the pants, and reminder of who is King and who is not, or else he would never have changed. Nothing else would have done it *for that character*. The dynamic between Loki and Odin is very different. Thor didn't have the issue finding out he was lied to all his life about who he was and what his purpose in life was to be, or doubts about if he was loved as much as his sibling, and feelings of inadequacy all his life in comparison to his sibling... therefore, the dynamic between Odin-Loki is very different this way, and so as a result how Odin handles him should be different from the way he handled Thor.

I'm not going to continue to argue about the rest of the stuff you said. I've said my peace on that so many times it exhausts me. we've had that run around I've had that run around a few times with different people as you know. And as you know I could argue and rebut until next November about all of that. All I ask is that you keep a bit of an open mind in the discussion, especially if you can't figure any other options that would fill the same plot holes and requirements. Because honestly I'm starting to feel like I can't even discuss the potential Loki plot here out in the open due to closemindedness on what they might do with the character. Which is sad because I came into this due to that MCU character.

*sigh* another subject I guess... well while looking around on screenrant.com at some old articles about the potential directors, I found this quote interesting...



http://screenrant.com/thor-2-directo...-sandy-132968/

So while the movie is certainly called Thor The Dark World, it would seem that the intention will be to involve the rest of the characters much more, with more story arcs and narrative threads to deal with, which should be fun.



Some people want it to be ignored I guess... *sigh...*

Ok. I am %100 sure you completely missed the point of my post -_- lol.

read this entire thing before commenting, cause I kinda jump around

I'm not close minded. I have a different opinion. And I don't despise Loki at all. I've said, aside from Thanos, Loki is my favorite villain. He is the character who got me looking at characters BEYOND their super powers. I don't despise him whatsoever.

I know MCU Loki isn't comic book Loki. I KNOW that. Gosh I KNOW that. I've been following the MCU for almost 6 years now, I get how the characters differ lol. That's not where my conclusion is coming from. Elizah, I am simply not looking at the past content as deepy as you are, simply cause I don't think the answers lie there. thus drawing my assumptions from what I have seen in the MCU so far. As I said, I don't think the answers will be found from digging up the deep content, I think it will be more simple. That's just my OPINION (which IS all we have for now. Opinions)

Now as for Odin dealing with Loki, I SAID i wouldn't prefer one way or the other. I am fine with either. I then said, I woundn't have a problem with it if they just prisoned him though, before his arc continues to unfold. My comment was simply the reason I think it will be that way. There is nothing close minded about it. You stated reasons for one, I stated reasons for another. Lol that doesn't mean I'm being closed minded.

My conclusion is NOT brought from closemindedness, or hate. I drew this conclusion simply from what I have observed in the MCU so far without looking at it too deeply. My conclusion differs from yours. and that's fine. If Odin tries to get to Loki Elizah, that's fine with me. I have nothing wrong with that whatsoever. He is is son, I agree that regarding Odin, Loki is a bit more sensitive. If Odin doesn't reach out, I have no problem with that either. That is simply the path I THINK they are going to go with it.


Now for my saying that Thor reaching out to Loki has to stop,
How is that hatred? It isn't meant in a hostile way. All I mean, is Thor has reached out to Loki in two films now, and it seems that Thor reaching to him has run it's course. it's probably time for Thor to have a new approach towards his brother, cause he hasn't gotten through to him, so I think that by this movie, Thor should be reacting differently to his brother. You can't disagree with that, come on lol. I'm pretty sure you missed the point of my entire post

EDIT: I see in my comment where I said "the reaching out to Loki needs to end", well there is the confusion. That was a typo, I meant to say, "Thor reaching out to Loki needs to end" So I see how that can throw things off lol

I drew a conclusion based on the fact that I THINK the answers aren't so deeply hidden, that doesn't mean I am being a closed minded. I drew my conclusion from context, as you did yours, just different methods. That's that, please don't tell me I am being close minded and hate a character who made me interested in villains in the first place, comic book or movie, it is STILL loki, and I take offense to that, cause well, I'm one defensive SOB.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

well another recent Tom quote... "Everybody upstairs in space is going to have an opinion on what happened..." is a pretty strong indicator that people will have *different* opinions on all of that, as they have here, so don't be surprised if the topic is discussed by the characters in Thor 2, right or wrong.

And a large part of figuring out plot, as important if not more important to what characters can or can't do and how powerful they are, is figuring out character motivation. Why would a character realistically do something? (as I tried to talk about some in the previous post).

For instance, it has been brought up that the Tesseract is one of the few things that would probably be as powerful as Odin and could keep him out of the picture while Thor possibly takes over as King at least temporarily. But what legitimate reason does Odin have to mess with the Tesseract, and not just lock it away with all of his other dangerous toys? Maybe you can come up with some other reasons, but I do think that if Odin believes he can help Loki by fighting the Tesseract that would give him significant motivation to do so. It would also explain why Loki may seem very distressed and irrational in the beginning (per the Italy clips) but then later be stable enough to help Thor on whatever he needs help with (although still, I'm sure, full of mischief), and would also give Thor realistic motivation for why he might suddenly trust Loki and give him yet another chance. So... character motivation... character motivation... character motivation... You can't just have Thor hand Odin the Tesseract and have him start messing with it for no good reason, among other things that need character motivation to explain the actions (per the above).

And honestly I'm going to be terribly disappointed in Odin if he just locks Loki up and does nothing else to try to help him back onto a better path. He may not be his blood but he had Loki as a son almost as long as he had Thor, and he appeared to have cared for Loki, and mourned when he "died". I guarantee they will not be ignoring that relationship in Thor 2, it was too big a part of the first film, and too big a conflict to not resolve. It would be pretty outrageous to ignore it completely.

I read over the first part of this by mistake. I agree, it certainly is a way to keep the tesseract relevant, and to give a reason to use it. ALSO, if Algrim happens to be present, an "accident" can certainly be what turns algrim into kurse.

[elizah72]

I guess your reply up there came off to me as being testy/annoyed about the topic or the very idea I was presenting regarding this possible plot element and Loki. as you know it can be difficult to convey tone on a messageboard. but that's how it came off to me.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

My conclusion is NOT brought from closemindedness, or hate. I drew this conclusion simply from what I have observed in the MCU so far without looking at it too deeply. My conclusion differs from yours. and that's fine. If Odin tries to get to Loki Elizah, that's fine with me. I have nothing wrong with that whatsoever. He is is son, I agree that regarding Odin, Loki is a bit more sensitive. If Odin doesn't reach out, I have no problem with that either. That is simply the path I THINK they are going to go with it.

and what we are fairly certain about is Thor WILL give him another chance to some degree at some point in this film, if he's going to be working with him to save Asgard. But Thor needs character motivation to give him that chance, otherwise it does get ridiculous for him to keep reaching out. I agree with that. I would expect him at the beginning of the film to be done reaching out to Loki, but as we know he will not be. So again, character motivation is needed to explain that, and that is tied in with figuring out possible plots. And you do need to look more deeply into the films to figure out character motivation and plot, it's as big a part of it as the explosions and the fights, if not bigger. Without character motivation and a decent plot all you have is a theme park ride with no depth to it. And again, what I laid out above, that scenario, could give him a realistic reason to give him another chance, when he should be all but done with him in the beginning of the film. Whether Loki screws it up again we'll have to wait and see.

"It's what I loved about the comics. It was never clean and cut and that's it," he said about whether or not Thor and Loki would repair their damaged relationship. "It was always like, Thor would forgive him, they'd be friends, and Loki would betray him again. 'You idiot, Thor! Again?' But it was different than your normal good guy, bad guy scenario. They're brothers, you know? Anyone with siblings understands that. 'That's it, I'm never talking to you again… want to play football?'"
Football doesn't seem like it's in the cards for Thor and Loki — the former's got a bit of an advantage over his scrawny younger sibling anyway, right? — but there are other ways that Loki can win Thor's trust back, Hemsworth said.
"He's got to apologize, doesn't he? Baked goods. Muffins or something," he joked. "That would be a bribe we could start with. Beyond that, I don't know." Chris Hemsworth http://splashpage.mtv.com/2012/05/16...-relationship/

But we all know Loki is not apt to apologize or bake him muffins, at least not in the state of mind he was in during Avengers, and it sounds like in the beginning of Thor 2 at least... unless something breaks him out of that state of mind, at least to enough of a degree, and I'm not sure anything that happens with Frigga is going to believably do that. So again, the scenario I laid out is a possible way that all happens, that ties in with a number of things we know/strongly suspect about the plot.

EDIT: I see in my comment where I said "the reaching out to Loki needs to end", well there is the confusion. That was a typo, I meant to say, "Thor reaching out to Loki needs to end" So I see how that can throw things off lol

okay, yes. Because I don't think the Odin or Frigga reaching out has yet to begin really, and as parents they are obligated to at least try no matter what he's done. Again, I don't have a problem with Thor acting done with that at the beginning of Thor 2 but it seems he will at some point reach out again, and he needs motivation to do that, and preferably something that would fit in well with the rest of the plot without being really extraneous. Which is what I was trying to propose.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I read over the first part of this by mistake. I agree, it certainly is a way to keep the tesseract relevant, and to give a reason to use it. ALSO, if Algrim happens to be present, an "accident" can certainly be what turns algrim into kurse.

Okay.

an "accident" or possibly the entity getting freed and attaching to another character, who then changes Algrim to Kurse (as previously speculated, possibly this is the Jane possession moment)

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I guess your reply up there came off to me as being testy/annoyed about the topic or the very idea I was presenting regarding this possible plot element and Loki. as you know it can be difficult to convey tone on a messageboard. but that's how it came off to me.



and what we are fairly certain about is Thor WILL give him another chance to some degree at some point in this film, if he's going to be working with him to save Asgard. But Thor needs character motivation to give him that chance, otherwise it does get ridiculous for him to keep reaching out. I agree with that. I would expect him at the beginning of the film to be done reaching out to Loki, but as we know he will not be. So again, character motivation is needed to explain that, and that is tied in with figuring out possible plots. And you do need to look more deeply into the films to figure out character motivation and plot, it's as big a part of it as the explosions and the fights, if not bigger. Without character motivation and a decent plot all you have is a theme park ride with no depth to it. And again, what I laid out above, that scenario, could give him a realistic reason to give him another chance, when he should be all but done with him in the beginning of the film. Whether Loki screws it up again we'll have to wait and see.



But we all know Loki is not apt to apologize or bake him muffins, at least not in the state of mind he was in during Avengers, and it sounds like in the beginning of Thor 2 at least... unless something breaks him out of that state of mind, at least to enough of a degree, and I'm not sure anything that happens with Frigga is going to believably do that. So again, the scenario I laid out is a possible way that all happens, that ties in with a number of things we know/strongly suspect about the plot.



okay, yes. Because I don't think the Odin or Frigga reaching out has yet to begin really, and as parents they are obligated to at least try no matter what he's done. Again, I don't have a problem with Thor acting done with that at the beginning of Thor 2 but it seems he will at some point reach out again, and he needs motivation to do that, and preferably something that would fit in well with the rest of the plot without being really extraneous. Which is what I was trying to propose.

nope, not my intention at all lol..

but given how I am currently at school doing hw, I will make this brief. That much I do agree with. However, it would be Thor reaching out to him for the sake of plot, correct? Opposed to the prior two movies where it was Thor reaching out to "get his brother back". Reaching out to him in THAT aspect, I think has run it's course. Not that it's BAD. It's just, like, ok when is this guy going to understand he is beyond help, things like that. It's time for Thor to move on.

Though of course for the sake of plot he'll have to go back to him. Which back to that, I still think he will be needing loki to get him to other realms opposed to asgard. Cause we know Loki knows ways through the realms. And idk, needing help to get to parts of asgard, when you can fly with a magical hammer, I would think that he wouldn't need help getting to a place in asgard lol right?

and I know the whole, Loki having his moment of "redemption" to help thor, whether or not he has more, but I really hope, whether it be in this movie, or the next, he gets redemption by fighting surtur with his brother and his moment. It's such a classic moment in the run, the oppritunity IS THERE!!! lol I'd probably tear up if that happened on screen

here's hoping

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

Okay.

an "accident" or possibly the entity getting freed and attaching to another character, who then changes Algrim to Kurse (as previously speculated, possibly this is the Jane possession moment)

or maybe Malekith posesses her?

I am still on board with the tesseract just simply being an artifact of immense power, that takes a lot of knowledge to know how to use it, or understand it. Though it containing a spirit or something would be actually really cool.

whether it be sentient or not, an artifact of that power, can certainly changed a confused little elf into Kurse.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

nope, not my intention at all lol..

but given how I am currently at school doing hw, I will make this brief. That much I do agree with. However, it would be Thor reaching out to him for the sake of plot, correct? Opposed to the prior two movies where it was Thor reaching out to "get his brother back". Reaching out to him in THAT aspect, I think has run it's course. Not that it's BAD. It's just, like, ok when is this guy going to understand he is beyond help, things like that. It's time for Thor to move on.

To some extent yes. I don't think you ever give up like that on a family member that you love, not completely. I'd say if I were writing it you'd have Thor be in a tough situation where he needs Loki's help, but doesn't trust him, but there is no choice. And in the course of them having to work together, they hash out things, "get down to the major bones of their confict" to quote Chris H. and Loki hopefully is able to make some amends with him. Then of course that's when the old big brotherly feelings will start to return again, because he's Thor and he is the "biggest sweetest idiot in the whole 9 realms". Will it last? It's up to Marvel and the writers.

Though of course for the sake of plot he'll have to go back to him. Which back to that, I still think he will be needing loki to get him to other realms opposed to asgard. Cause we know Loki knows ways through the realms. And idk, needing help to get to parts of asgard, when you can fly with a magical hammer, I would think that he wouldn't need help getting to a place in asgard lol right?

I agree, that's why I'd lean towards other realms or possibly a personal connection or two that Loki has that might help Thor rebuild the army. Like I said, maybe with the non dark elf invading army? To get them to a truce and then fight the dark elves off?

and I know the whole, Loki having his moment of "redemption" to help thor, whether or not he has more, but I really hope, whether it be in this movie, or the next, he gets redemption by fighting surtur with his brother and his moment. It's such a classic moment in the run, the oppritunity IS THERE!!! lol I'd probably tear up if that happened on screen

but I don't think that possibly having that be the full redemption moment with Surtur means that they can't make some amends and work together for a film or more. I think the Loki-Thor fighting thing has really run it's course for the films, it's okay in comics to do that over and over but it's really going to be too repetitive to continue that in the films. I have also read many comments from both Tom and Chris that indicate they really enjoy working together, and want to continue and not just kill off Loki, and both want to see Loki redeemed at some point. They are probably a little tired of having to beat each other up every film too. LOL I could spend an hour collecting quotes to highlight but I really don't want to. But then this was a comment from Tom last month in the GQ interview...

I remember Chris [Hemsworth] and I saying over the summer when Avengers came out, where do we go now? Going into this one we were - very flatteringly - involved in big creative conversations about tone, and story. Thor and Loki are these two characters that people know and love and understand - so we have to take this in the right direction. You want to do something new - you don't want to re-heat the same recipe in the microwave, you want to cook up something different and exciting - but you don't want to lose the things that worked the first time. So we're our own slave drivers, in a way. Complacency is the enemy. But that's exciting and it's going well.

Now I guarantee you, in that big creative conversation with those two actors about tone and story, that Loki's redemption and Thor and Loki working together and making amends WAS discussed. I guarantee it. Chances are that they and Marvel see that it is repetitive to just have them constantly fighting for the next 4 films they are contracted for. And of course Feige and Marvel have certainly seen how popular Tom and Loki are, it would be stupid to just kill him off and toss him away like that. Will they do what the actors want? Maybe not. But I guarantee it was discussed. I've read too many quotes from both of them to indicate that is something both those guys want to see. And honestly I want to see it, I almost wish they'd started the film earlier so we could see those two working together as a team more. So many great villains in that universe to fight together and such a great dynamic between the characters. And them working together doesn't mean that Loki is all goodie two shoes, not at all. He can certainly continue to be a very complex, mixed up, manipulative jerk character who will keep the audience and other characters on their toes. If anything it'll make Thor's current circle of friends more interesting.

And not only that, leading into Avengers 2, how about the angst that would be generated for Thor, if by the end of Thor 2 he and brother have made at least some amends, and he thinks he has his brother back, and then Thanos swoops in and grabs him to torture him, or forces him to do something bad again on pain of torture? Lots of great drama created by this, part of which also would be dealing with the rest of the Avengers angry feelings towards Loki and not caring what happens to him. So lots of potential for interesting dramatic tension there. But that won't work unless something changes for the current Loki-Thor relationship, so that needs to happen in this film. Otherwise, Loki gets captured by Thanos and nobody gives a crap but the fangirls.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

or maybe Malekith posesses her?

I am still on board with the tesseract just simply being an artifact of immense power, that takes a lot of knowledge to know how to use it, or understand it. Though it containing a spirit or something would be actually really cool.

whether it be sentient or not, an artifact of that power, can certainly changed a confused little elf into Kurse.

well I earlier found evidence that there was an entity that is linked to the beyonder called Kosmic that was once a cosmic cube that then attached to a human, then unattached and became a female entity. So that potential is there. Could also be the Krige character, as has been previously speculated (which was first speculated by American Maid in the Krige thread, I believe). Erik does refer to it as a "she" at some point.

On Malekith possessing her, on my start of a summary I sent AM in PM a little while ago, I guessed that he could do something similar to what Loki did to Erik at the end of Thor 1 ... sort of shadowing him to keep an eye on developments but not really possessing him, so that is certainly possible and a way for Malekith to keep an eye out for his best moments of opportunity (but using Jane instead). I also wondered if he could have used his power to direct her to go to Greenwich and the meridian line in the first place, if that particular location is needed for his plans, and Jane's work with portals is also a part of that. It all fits in pretty well I think.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by elizah72

To some extent yes. I don't think you ever give up like that on a family member that you love, not completely. I'd say if I were writing it you'd have Thor be in a tough situation where he needs Loki's help, but doesn't trust him, but there is no choice. And in the course of them having to work together, they hash out things, "get down to the major bones of their confict" to quote Chris H. and Loki hopefully is able to make some amends with him. Then of course that's when the old big brotherly feelings will start to return again, because he's Thor and he is the "biggest sweetest idiot in the whole 9 realms". Will it last? It's up to Marvel and the writers.





I agree, that's why I'd lean towards other realms or possibly a personal connection or two that Loki has that might help Thor rebuild the army. Like I said, maybe with the non dark elf invading army? To get them to a truce and then fight the dark elves off?



but I don't think that possibly having that be the full redemption moment with Surtur means that they can't make some amends and work together for a film or more. I think the Loki-Thor fighting thing has really run it's course for the films, it's okay in comics to do that over and over but it's really going to be too repetitive to continue that in the films. I have also read many comments from both Tom and Chris that indicate they really enjoy working together, and want to continue and not just kill off Loki, and both want to see Loki redeemed at some point. They are probably a little tired of having to beat each other up every film too. LOL I could spend an hour collecting quotes to highlight but I really don't want to. But then this was a comment from Tom last month in the GQ interview...



Now I guarantee you, in that big creative conversation with those two actors about tone and story, that Loki's redemption and Thor and Loki working together and making amends WAS discussed. I guarantee it. Chances are that they and Marvel see that it is repetitive to just have them constantly fighting for the next 4 films they are contracted for. And of course Feige and Marvel have certainly seen how popular Tom and Loki are, it would be stupid to just kill him off and toss him away like that. Will they do what the actors want? Maybe not. But I guarantee it was discussed. I've read too many quotes from both of them to indicate that is something both those guys want to see. And honestly I want to see it, I almost wish they'd started the film earlier so we could see those two working together as a team more. So many great villains in that universe to fight together and such a great dynamic between the characters. And them working together doesn't mean that Loki is all goodie two shoes, not at all. He can certainly continue to be a very complex, mixed up, manipulative jerk character who will keep the audience and other characters on their toes. If anything it'll make Thor's current circle of friends more interesting.

And not only that, leading into Avengers 2, how about the angst that would be generated for Thor, if by the end of Thor 2 he and brother have made at least some amends, and he thinks he has his brother back, and then Thanos swoops in and grabs him to torture him, or forces him to do something bad again on pain of torture? Lots of great drama created by this, part of which also would be dealing with the rest of the Avengers angry feelings towards Loki and not caring what happens to him. So lots of potential for interesting dramatic tension there. But that won't work unless something changes for the current Loki-Thor relationship, so that needs to happen in this film. Otherwise, Loki gets captured by Thanos and nobody gives a crap but the fangirls.




well I earlier found evidence that there was an entity that is linked to the beyonder called Kosmic that was once a cosmic cube that then attached to a human, then unattached and became a female entity. So that potential is there. Could also be the Krige character, as has been previously speculated (which was first speculated by American Maid in the Krige thread, I believe). Erik does refer to it as a "she" at some point.

On Malekith possessing her, on my start of a summary I sent AM in PM a little while ago, I guessed that he could do something similar to what Loki did to Erik at the end of Thor 1 ... sort of shadowing him to keep an eye on developments but not really possessing him, so that is certainly possible and a way for Malekith to keep an eye out for his best moments of opportunity (but using Jane instead). I also wondered if he could have used his power to direct her to go to Greenwich and the meridian line in the first place, if that particular location is needed for his plans, and Jane's work with portals is also a part of that. It all fits in pretty well I think.

I like all tihs. but I think you may be being a wee bit over analytical when it comes to the tesseract. I mean, yeah, the comic book character. But that seems a little TOO much to do on screen, regarding everything else going on screen. with malekith kurse, possibly other realms, now another being inside the cube?

i am still inclined to think its just an artifact, we shall see. But the whole selvig "she's an energy source"..well, regarding objects of value, I talk like that too, as do some men, so I think that comment you may be reading in a little bit too deeply :P

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I like all tihs. but I think you may be being a wee bit over analytical when it comes to the tesseract. I mean, yeah, the comic book character. But that seems a little TOO much to do on screen, regarding everything else going on screen. with malekith kurse, possibly other realms, now another being inside the cube?

i am still inclined to think its just an artifact, we shall see. But the whole selvig "she's an energy source"..well, regarding objects of value, I talk like that too, as do some men, so I think that comment you may be reading in a little bit too deeply :P

Okay well think about this then, if Odin is going to be tied up with this thing, doing battle with it through most of the film in order to have him out of the way for Thor to possibly be king and do stuff, then visually, there needs to be more to it than just saying that's what happening. Even just showing Odin catatonic in front of the cube isn't enough and not much better than having him in Odinsleep. If however you get some flashes of him doing battle with an entity inside the cube, inside his mind or whatever, then that becomes much more visually interesting. And certainly it is a way to convey Odin and the Tesseract's immense power. It wouldn't take much to do this effectively either.