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Old 12-13-2012, 10:39 AM   #851
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

But Bruce Wayne = Batman.

Something that I loved about the Trilogy is that Bruce Wayne is a very well developed character, so much that you don't care how much screentime Batman has.

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Old 12-13-2012, 10:42 AM   #852
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Some CB fans just want to see action. All day, every day(or night).

BUT....this is the concluding story of Bruce Wayne and we needed to see more of him quite frankly without the cape and cowl. I appreciate this ambitious idea of showing more Bruce than Batman as well.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:05 AM   #853
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by BlueLightning View Post
But Bruce Wayne = Batman.

Something that I loved about the Trilogy is that Bruce Wayne is a very well developed character, so much that you don't care how much screentime Batman has.
And Batman = Bruce Wayne (works both ways).

Something I have disliked about this trilogy is the lack of Batman in it, if it could have been kept to a 50/50 ratio that would be fine, and i'm afraid I do care about the Batman Screentime.

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Some CB fans just want to see action. All day, every day(or night).

BUT....this is the concluding story of Bruce Wayne and we needed to see more of him quite frankly without the cape and cowl. I appreciate this ambitious idea of showing more Bruce than Batman as well.
And i'm unashamedly one of those CB fans, I understand the storyline aspect of the movies and how it gives Bruce a tidy little ending, but seriously they couldn't of just added a bit more Batman?

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:10 AM   #854
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

And that's fine. Didn't say it was a bad thing to be one of those CB fans(because there are as much as there are CB fans who are fine with seeing a detailed trilogy of the man behind the cape and cowl), but this is what Nolan's trilogy is about...a detailed storyline of Bruce Wayne and needless to say, the third definitely called for a Bruce Wayne without Batman for the most part.

Don't worry though, the next trilogy will probably go to the same format of the villains being the focus and Batman taking down these villains.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:17 AM   #855
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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And that's fine. Didn't say it was a bad thing to be one of those CB fans(because there are as much as there are CB fans who are fine with seeing a detailed trilogy of the man behind the cape and cowl), but this is what Nolan's trilogy is about...a detailed storyline of Bruce Wayne and needless to say, the third definitely called for a Bruce Wayne without Batman for the most part.

Don't worry though, the next trilogy will probably go to the same format of the villains being the focus and Batman taking down these villains.
True, but I would say this past Nolan trilogy has been pretty heavy on the focus of villains, not that thats a criticism. And just for the record, I love Bruce storylines, i'm one of the very few defenders of the lack of Batman in BB because I think it should be that way, but for an ending to him hanging up the cowl for good, I just wish he'd of had it on a bit longer. I suppose thats the thing with opinions, we all have different ones!

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Old 12-13-2012, 07:31 PM   #856
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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I absolutely LOVE Batman Begins & The Dark Knight...and I absolutely HATED TDKR!!

At first Nolan seem to understand the character. Then in the last movie it was like he forgot everything...WTF??! At the end of Batman Begins there's a scene at the end of the movie that showed me that Nolan "gets it"! The scene was at Bruce's destroyed mansion, when Rachel tells Bruce "and then I saw your true face". Bruce says "Batman is only a symbol". She touches his face and says..."no Bruce, this is your mask, your true face is the one that Gotham's criminals now fear."
And that the key to the character....he IS BATMAN! There is no Bruce Wayne. She said she kept waiting for the day when Bruce Wayne would come back...but he never did.

And that's what Nolan forgot in "Rises". At the beginning of the movie Batman has quit for 7 years because of the death of Rachel? If anything...her death would have only added fuel to the fire of the REAL Batman! He would have gone after criminals with even more of a vengeance than before...not quit and hide in his mansion!?How did Nolan lose touch so badly with character in his 3rd movie? And at the end Batman retires? Again...WTF??

Not to mention Batman is hardly in his own movie...they should have called it "Bane". Batman only appears at the beginning...and at the end. Sad.

I'm the biggest Batman fan there is...and I won't ever own TDKR! Not even if I saw it on Bluray in the $4.99 bin.

End of rant.
Why do so many people mistake Batman's retirement being a result of Rachel's death? If Rachel dying was enough to make Batman throw in the towel then he wouldn't have gone after the Joker and stopped his rampage after she died.

The reason Batman was retired is because Harvey Dent's heroic image and legacy cleaned up Gotham's crime so well that Batman wasn't needed any more. Remember this key scene;

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Rachel is the reason why Bruce gave up on trying to find himself some kind of normal life after he hung up the cape and cowl. Again two key scenes spell this out;

Bruce: "There's nothing out there for me"
Alfred: "And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never moved on. You never went to find yourself a life. To find someone"
Bruce: "Alfred, I did find someone"
Alfred: "I know, and you lost 'em. But that's all part of living"

Alfred: "You used to talk about finishing. About finding a life beyond that awful cave"
Bruce: "Alfred, Rachel died knowing we had decided to be together. I can't just move on. She didn't. She couldn't"
Alfred: "What if she had?"
Bruce: "She couldn't...I can't change that"
Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you.....and what if to spare you pain I burned that letter"
Bruce: "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me"

The movie makes it very clear, but so many people always say he quit being Batman because Rachel was dead.

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Old 12-13-2012, 07:33 PM   #857
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Why do so many people mistake Batman's retirement being a result of Rachel's death? If Rachel dying was enough to make Batman throw in the towel then he wouldn't have gone after the Joker and stopped his rampage after she died.

The reason Batman was retired is because Harvey Dent's heroic image and legacy cleaned up Gotham's crime so well that Batman wasn't needed any more. Remember this key scene;

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed an more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Rachel is the reason why Bruce gave up on trying to find himself some kind of normal life after he hung up the cape and cowl. Again two key scenes spell this out;

Bruce: "There's nothing out there for me"
Alfred: "And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never went to find yourself life. To find someone"
Bruce: "Alfred, I did find someone"
Alfred: "I know, and you lost 'em. But that's all part of living"

Alfred: "You used to talk about finishing. About finding a life beyond that awful cave"
Bruce: "Alfred, Rachel died knowing we had decided to be together. I can't just move on. She didn't. She couldn't"
Alfred: "What if she had?"
Bruce: "She couldn't...I can't change that"
Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you.....and what if to spare you pain I burned that letter"
Bruce: "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me"

The movie makes it very clear, but so many people always say he quit being Batman because Rachel was dead.
Amen.

It's not really all that hard to notice if one pays attention.

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Old 12-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #858
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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The movie makes it very clear, but so many people always say he quit being Batman because Rachel was dead.
I think people thought he retired due to Rachel's death because he became this depressed recluse of a hermit. That and all the dialogue with Alfred in the cave and around the mansion was about the loss of Rachel. Not saying that its accurate, but I'm just guessing why people assumed this. Question is, why did he become such a recluse? Yes the war was won, but he certaintly didn't act like someone that won a war. Is the answer that he was depressed, withdrawn because the war was won and there was nothing left to do? Maybe one could say that he was depressed that the war was won, but now there was no one to share the victory with, so Rachel's death did contribute to mental health. Thoughts?

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Old 12-13-2012, 08:49 PM   #859
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

He became a recluse because of the failed clean energy project.

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Old 12-13-2012, 09:53 PM   #860
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Why do so many people mistake Batman's retirement being a result of Rachel's death? If Rachel dying was enough to make Batman throw in the towel then he wouldn't have gone after the Joker and stopped his rampage after she died.

The reason Batman was retired is because Harvey Dent's heroic image and legacy cleaned up Gotham's crime so well that Batman wasn't needed any more. Remember this key scene;

Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Rachel is the reason why Bruce gave up on trying to find himself some kind of normal life after he hung up the cape and cowl. Again two key scenes spell this out;

Bruce: "There's nothing out there for me"
Alfred: "And that's the problem. You hung up your cape and your cowl but you never moved on. You never went to find yourself a life. To find someone"
Bruce: "Alfred, I did find someone"
Alfred: "I know, and you lost 'em. But that's all part of living"

Alfred: "You used to talk about finishing. About finding a life beyond that awful cave"
Bruce: "Alfred, Rachel died knowing we had decided to be together. I can't just move on. She didn't. She couldn't"
Alfred: "What if she had?"
Bruce: "She couldn't...I can't change that"
Alfred: "What if before she died she wrote a letter saying she chose Harvey Dent over you.....and what if to spare you pain I burned that letter"
Bruce: "How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me"

The movie makes it very clear, but so many people always say he quit being Batman because Rachel was dead.
Preach!

The whole idea of Bruce giving up the cape and cowl because of Rachel is silly. Sure, he still grieves over Rachel as much as he grieved over her right after she died before he went after Joker, but he didn't quit because of her death. If the Dent Act didn't happened, we would've had a pissed off Batman who lost his wishful girlfriend haunting the streets of Gotham.

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I think people thought he retired due to Rachel's death because he became this depressed recluse of a hermit. That and all the dialogue with Alfred in the cave and around the mansion was about the loss of Rachel. Not saying that its accurate, but I'm just guessing why people assumed this. Question is, why did he become such a recluse? Yes the war was won, but he certaintly didn't act like someone that won a war. Is the answer that he was depressed, withdrawn because the war was won and there was nothing left to do? Maybe one could say that he was depressed that the war was won, but now there was no one to share the victory with, so Rachel's death did contribute to mental health. Thoughts?
Bruce gave up the cape and cowl because of the Dent Act and what it did with the mobs.

Bruce then became a hermit three years before TDKR's events because of the failed clean energy project.

Bruce giving up the Batman and being a recluse had nothing to do with Rachel.


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Old 12-13-2012, 10:48 PM   #861
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I just dont understand the people that hate the movie for the sole reason of Bruce retiring "because Rachel died" ... that is not why. It is a bit of a factor, sure. The mayor clearly states the city's crime rate is a fraction of what it used to be by saying that while no city is without crime there is no mob presence (obviously that's not verbatim).

& Then Bruce tells Gordon that Batman wasnt needed anymore and they "won." Rachel's death was more of a reason for Bruce Wayne to disappear later on once he shut down his energy project and felt even more alone. He was Batman immediately after Rachel's death because he was needed; once he took down the Joker & Harvey's fall reached its end he was no longer needed especially w/ the Dent Act.

I'm not a fan of the 8 year gap either but it does make sense in the framework of this story.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:09 PM   #862
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Yeah, it's a shame when some people (like Ralph Garman) base their dislike of the movie on that and it's completely false.

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:12 PM   #863
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Just shows their stupidity, which is awesome

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:16 PM   #864
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Yeah, it's a shame when some people (like Ralph Garman) base their dislike of the movie on that and it's completely false.
Ralph Garman, what did he say about it?

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Old 12-13-2012, 11:28 PM   #865
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Ralph Garman, what did he say about it?
He was on Kevin Smith's "Fatman on Batman" podcast a couple of months back.

http://smodcast.com/episodes/ralph-g...night-returns/

It's long, but a fun listen. Most of the FoBs are.

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Old 12-14-2012, 12:05 AM   #866
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Garman is an awful, awful comedian.

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Old 12-14-2012, 07:12 AM   #867
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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Yeah, it's a shame when some people (like Ralph Garman) base their dislike of the movie on that and it's completely false.
I would say its embarrassing.

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Old 12-14-2012, 07:13 AM   #868
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

Funny that they would spend so much time talking about Rachel if it didn't impact Bruce in some way. There is no indication that he gave up the cape/cowl due to her death but I do think her death affected him into being a recluse.

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Old 12-14-2012, 07:19 AM   #869
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Funny that they would spend so much time talking about Rachel if it didn't impact Bruce in some way. There is no indication that he gave up the cape/cowl due to her death but I do think her death affected him into being a recluse.
Oh absolutely. There's no doubt about that. Its one of the aspects .

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Old 12-14-2012, 07:42 AM   #870
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I don't really blame people for not realizing that Pavel publishing a research paper made Bruce hide himself away for 3 years. It's just easier to believe that he hid for 8 years because of Rachel. And then they connect what the film says about Batman being gone for 8 years.

There's a lot of years, days, and times thrown about in the exposition. It's a bit much TBH.


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Old 12-14-2012, 07:57 AM   #871
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I feel he hung up the cape because Rachel died.

Why stop because of the Dent Act? Because organized crime was severely harmed? Doesn't mean there is no more organized crime....and what about the disorganized crime of the city? Batman cares about organized crime stealing $6 billion from businesses....but doesn't give a damn about the poor schmuck who can't walk down the street without getting his head bashed in for the $6.00 in his pocket? Batman cares about organized crime raping the judicial system by buying off cops, judges, lawyers....but doesn't give a damn about the women of the city who are raped by malicious perverts?

If people are saying that the Batman of these movies ONLY cares about stopping organized crime...then he is not the Batman I have known for 50 years.

The key scene that is mentioned -
Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Based on the lie that Batman told himself. After Rachel died, and the adrenalin rush of revenge.....Batman is so tore up and has time to fall into a depression over her death, that he hangs up the cape and convinces himself that he won. Never mind that there is still crime in the city. Never mind that people are still getting murdered, raped, and maimed on a daily basis. He won. He stopped crime in Gotham city. I'm sure the late night fast food/gas station attendant holding a rag to his bleeding head is thinking "Thank God Batman stopped the organized crime in the city and hung up his cape....otherwise he might have been hurt by this crack addicted robber too."

Is this the Batman you guys have been reading? Batman is out patrolling the streets of Gotham...he hears gunshots...he races to the scene....oh, it's only a crackhead killing a guy to get money for his next fix.....swings back up to the top of the tallest building around...I must ever be on the lookout for organized crime!!!!!!


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Old 12-14-2012, 08:17 AM   #872
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

It's the Batman that they established in Batman Begins. The one who set out to take Gotham back from the corrupt and shake people out of apathy.

It was never Batman's goal to prevent every mugging from happening, because that's impossible. It was about being a symbol. Like how Gordon turns on the signal in TDK to remind people he's out there, and the drug dealer gets all shaken up.

It's just wrong to say this version of Batman wanted to stop every single crime in Gotham when we see him looking to pass the torch to Dent in TDK and have a normal life. Does he think Dent will stop every mugging and murder? No, he believes Dent will give Gotham a fighting chance to win the fight against corruption and be a symbol of good for the people.

These movies are all about symbols.


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Old 12-14-2012, 08:22 AM   #873
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I feel he hung up the cape because Rachel died.

Why stop because of the Dent Act? Because organized crime was severely harmed? Doesn't mean there is no more organized crime....and what about the disorganized crime of the city? Batman cares about organized crime stealing $6 billion from businesses....but doesn't give a damn about the poor schmuck who can't walk down the street without getting his head bashed in for the $6.00 in his pocket? Batman cares about organized crime raping the judicial system by buying off cops, judges, lawyers....but doesn't give a damn about the women of the city who are raped by malicious perverts?

If people are saying that the Batman of these movies ONLY cares about stopping organized crime...then he is not the Batman I have known for 50 years.

The key scene that is mentioned -
Gordon: "We were in this together and then you were gone"
Bruce: "The Batman wasn't needed any more. We won"
Gordon: "Based on a lie"

Based on the lie that Batman told himself. After Rachel died, and the adrenalin rush of revenge.....Batman is so tore up and has time to fall into a depression over her death, that he hangs up the cape and convinces himself that he won. Never mind that there is still crime in the city. Never mind that people are still getting murdered, raped, and maimed on a daily basis. He won. He stopped crime in Gotham city. I'm sure the late night fast food/gas station attendant holding a rag to his bleeding head is thinking "Thank God Batman stopped the organized crime in the city and hung up his cape....otherwise he might have been hurt by this crack addicted robber too."

Is this the Batman you guys have been reading? Batman is out patrolling the streets of Gotham...he hears gunshots...he races to the scene....oh, it's only a crackhead killing a guy to get money for his next fix.....swings back up to the top of the tallest building around...I must ever be on the lookout for organized crime!!!!!!
Agreed. I've said it a lot on various threads, but I don't like the 8 year gap at all, I get The Dark Knight Returns influence and all that but he was actually an old man in that so it made sense him actually retiring.

The main thing with these movies, and especially the first and last, the best way to view them is they're not Batman stories as such, they are Bruce Wayne stories. I suppose that can be viewed as a good or bad thing depending on your tastes.

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Old 12-14-2012, 08:32 AM   #874
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

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It's the Batman that they established in Batman Begins. The one who set out to take Gotham back from the corrupt and shake people out of apathy.

It was never Batman's goal to prevent every mugging from happening, because that's impossible. It was about being a symbol. Like how Gordon turns on the signal in TDK to remind people he's out there, and the drug dealer gets all shaken up.

It's just wrong to say this version of Batman wanted to stop every single crime in Gotham when we see him looking to pass the torch to Dent in TDK and have a normal life? Does he think Dent will stop every mugging and murder? No, he believes Dent will give Gotham a fighting chance to win the fight against corruption and be a symbol of good for the people.

These movies are all about symbols.
I don't expect Batman to stop every single crime in Gotham....but you can stop a lot more of them by actually going out and looking. The Batman portrayed in these movies (TDK and TDKR) is not the Batman that I grew up with. The only "symbol" he was before, was a symbol of law stopping crime. That's one of the reasons I am not a fan of them.

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Old 12-14-2012, 08:49 AM   #875
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Default Re: Am I the only one that feels like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfec

I think over time, Batfans are going to be divided over this trilogy regarding its portrayal of Bruce Wayne's story. The problem is, since TDKR brought a definitive end to this incarnation of Bruce Wayne's journey and took the message of the first two films towards a solid conclusion, its always going to get more hate. Here's why:

I think many of you will agree that after BB and TDK, Bruce Wayne's story could have gone either way. In other words, he could have either become the Batman we know in the comics, where he has embraced his destiny and realized that he is Batman now and forever, or he could have eventually retired when he felt that his mission was accomplished.

There are hints and clues in BB and TDK towards both of those interpretations, but the frustration of some fans with TDKR is that it takes one interpretation and establishes it as final and conclusive. Of course, as I've said on many occasions, I think Ledger's death really threw a wrench into what the third film could have been. Nolan even mentioned that he and Goyer were at first struggling to come up with a story for a third film, that they were stuck in a rut (and that's where the genesis of MOS came about, interestingly enough), and it all came together when they realized that they could simply fast forward to the conclusion of Bruce Wayne's arc.

BB and TDK set the stage for different possibilities, but TDKR will always be haunted by the specter of "what-if?", and I think that's the problem with many conclusions to trilogies in general.

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