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Old 12-15-2012, 09:50 PM   #701
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The problem with the 'Robin' line was that it was so tentative that it felt awkward and somewhat superfluous. You can compare it to the equivalent introductions of M and Moneypenny in Skyfall, which seemed to have the courage of conviction.
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Yeah, I didn't really feel anything tentative about the line. It was pretty blatant and in your face. It was kind of a relief for me, because he was fitting the archetype of the sidekick all movie so I was just waiting for them to make some kind of nod, and there it was at the least expected moment.
Even though it's part of a scene that is clearly designed partially for its inclusion, its played almost as a throwaway line, and more or less rushed past. I think that’s what meant by conviction.

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Old 12-15-2012, 10:00 PM   #702
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

I thought that the Robin line was a lot better. Mainly because in the case of Moneypenny it was so obvious that they were going out of the way not to say her name throughout the entire film, whereas John Blake just simply didn't use that name so it was more believable.

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Old 12-15-2012, 11:46 PM   #703
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I actually HIGHLY disagree with this. At least in terms of writing, everything else is subjective.

If you want to talk about plotholes in TDKR, don't compare it to a movie that's ENTIRE second half makes absolutely no sense.

Why does Silva want to be captured by MI6? He could have shown up dressed as a cop to surprise kill M at the Parliament hearing without being captured and therefore Bond would never have thwarted him.

How did Silva know Bond would corner him at that exact moment, at that exact place and stand in the exact position for him to blow up a passing Tube train right on top of him (which happens to apparently have no passengers or even a conductor during Rush Hour in it)?!

Why does Bond go to Skyfall when there are no weapons or advantages to defend himself?!

If Q can inexplicably leave a trail that is "not too big and not too small" to get Silva to follow Bond (with no real explanation how) to Skyfall without knowing it's a trap, how come MI6, especially with Mallory now in on it, not send in a back-up Special Ops team to spring when Silva shows up instead leaving Bond and high ranking official M to defend themselves like it's freaking Home Alone?!

Why does Bond let MI6 think he is dead for three months when the guy he was chasing got away. When has Bond ever let his man get away and given up to get drunk for three months? He always goes rogue, including in CR and QOS, before he gives up.

What did Bond accomplish at the end of the movie considering Silva succeeded at killing M?


....Look, I really enjoyed Skyfall. I thought it was a very fun movie.

But you CANNOT cite plot holes are muddled writing in TDKR and then praise Skyfall. It was a very well acted, beautifully shot action movie. But the story is a huge mess.
silva wanted to be caught because he wanted to see and speak to "mommy" face to face first. he didn't just want to come in and kill her out of the blue.

how did silva know bond would corner him at that exact moment? who knows? who cares? maybe he didn't know and the train nearly crushing bond was a nice coincidence?

how the hell did thousands of cops survive in the sewers for 5 months on rations then come out fighting fit and clean shaven? how did a totally broke bruce wayne get back to gotham from the pit in a matter of days? why did he just completely forgive selina kyle after she led him into a trap which got his back broke?

the third act of skyfall is superior in my opinion. rises is too break neck for it's own good and the editing is terrible. the whole final third and the build up to it is a disjointed mess. amazing set pieces linked together by poorly edited scene transitions that leave you guessing what the time frame is. along with both villains going out like total chumps. one of which having perhaps the worst death scene i've ever seen.

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Old 12-16-2012, 01:20 AM   #704
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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the whole final third and the build up to it is a disjointed mess. amazing set pieces linked together by poorly edited scene transitions that leave you guessing what the time frame is.
I cannot disagree more, I felt the editing and scene transitions were pretty clear. Bane gives his speech in front of the prison at the start of his siege, we see a montage. Cut to Bruce, no longer needing the rope to stand, the tv says "84 days into Gotham Siege." We saw the entire first 84 days of the five months it took for the bomb to detonate in the montage. Bruce's back took 12 weeks to heal before being able to attempt the climb. Cut back to Gotham with the Special Forces soldiers sneaking into Gotham in the food relief trucks for the cops. We see another montage of Blake and the Special Forces scouting the trucks holding the bomb, planning a countermeasure. Blake takes them to see Fox and Miranda, where Fox says the bomb will go off in 23 days. The Special Forces are killed and hung from the bridge. Cut back to the pit where Bruce sees the hung soldiers on the tv. He attempts the climb for a second time, fails and is knocked unconscious. He wakes up and attempts a third climb, without the rope and with supplies for his journey back to gotham, which we found out took him 22 days to get back, as he tells Selina, "That bomb is going off tomorrow."

-Day 1-84: Bane's speech in front of prison. Bruce is immobilized for entire duration allowing broken back to heal.
-Day 85-127: Special Forces sneak into Gotham and begin scouting the trucks with Blake, planning how to take action. Special forces are caught and hung from bridge on day 127, same day Bruce escapes from the pit.
-Day 149: Gordon is caught by Bane and sentenced to "death by exile." Bruce makes back into Gotham, and finds Selina in Old Town. Selina gets Bruce to Fox. Bruce saves Gordon and Blake, frees the cops.
-Day 150: The wall street fight. Bomb goes off. etc...

Believe me, I felt the same way you did after first viewing. With additional viewings however, paying closer attention to details like the tv in the pit, the editing, scene transitions, and timeline are pretty damn clear.

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Old 12-16-2012, 01:58 AM   #705
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

With submission, the "Robin" namedrop was...just a line. It really had no bearing on the plot nor did it drag down the film.

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Old 12-16-2012, 02:35 AM   #706
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I cannot disagree more, I felt the editing and scene transitions were pretty clear. Bane gives his speech in front of the prison at the start of his siege, we see a montage. Cut to Bruce, no longer needing the rope to stand, the tv says "84 days into Gotham Siege." We saw the entire first 84 days of the five months it took for the bomb to detonate in the montage. Bruce's back took 12 weeks to heal before being able to attempt the climb. Cut back to Gotham with the Special Forces soldiers sneaking into Gotham in the food relief trucks for the cops. We see another montage of Blake and the Special Forces scouting the trucks holding the bomb, planning a countermeasure. Blake takes them to see Fox and Miranda, where Fox says the bomb will go off in 23 days. The Special Forces are killed and hung from the bridge. Cut back to the pit where Bruce sees the hung soldiers on the tv. He attempts the climb for a second time, fails and is knocked unconscious. He wakes up and attempts a third climb, without the rope and with supplies for his journey back to gotham, which we found out took him 22 days to get back, as he tells Selina, "That bomb is going off tomorrow."

-Day 1-84: Bane's speech in front of prison. Bruce is immobilized for entire duration allowing broken back to heal.
-Day 85-127: Special Forces sneak into Gotham and begin scouting the trucks with Blake, planning how to take action. Special forces are caught and hung from bridge on day 127, same day Bruce escapes from the pit.
-Day 149: Gordon is caught by Bane and sentenced to "death by exile." Bruce makes back into Gotham, and finds Selina in Old Town. Selina gets Bruce to Fox. Bruce saves Gordon and Blake, frees the cops.
-Day 150: The wall street fight. Bomb goes off. etc...

Believe me, I felt the same way you did after first viewing. With additional viewings however, paying closer attention to details like the tv in the pit, the editing, scene transitions, and timeline are pretty damn clear.





They were clear. Some people just needed to pay attention.

What did they expect...Nolan to add verbage on the screen that says...2 weeks later..3 months later.....and then six months later etc.?


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Old 12-16-2012, 02:42 AM   #707
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it had better writing, in terms of the actual plot and the characterisation. with some nice unobtrusive nods and references to previous bonds. it was serious yet still witty and slick. craig gives an award worthy performance. the cinematography is some of the best ever. the scene in shanghai in particular is one of the most beautifully shot scenes i've ever seen. the one take fight scene in front of the neon is the type of shot i've yet to see nolan and pfister achieve. the editing is vastly superior to rises' which to be fair isn't difficult. the action scenes are superior. the finale isn't rushed as hell and isn't ruined by terrible acting and some of the worst stunt work i've ever seen.

skyfall is a superior film in every single way.




I disagree with pretty much everything you say here.

Kinda laughable actually.

TDKR has more layers, depth and meaning. Skyfall tried to get there, and in the end couldn't match it and I loved Skyfall. One of the best Bond films ever IMO.

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:11 AM   #708
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silva wanted to be caught because he wanted to see and speak to "mommy" face to face first. he didn't just want to come in and kill her out of the blue.

how did silva know bond would corner him at that exact moment? who knows? who cares? maybe he didn't know and the train nearly crushing bond was a nice coincidence?

how the hell did thousands of cops survive in the sewers for 5 months on rations then come out fighting fit and clean shaven? how did a totally broke bruce wayne get back to gotham from the pit in a matter of days? why did he just completely forgive selina kyle after she led him into a trap which got his back broke?

the third act of skyfall is superior in my opinion. rises is too break neck for it's own good and the editing is terrible. the whole final third and the build up to it is a disjointed mess. amazing set pieces linked together by poorly edited scene transitions that leave you guessing what the time frame is. along with both villains going out like total chumps. one of which having perhaps the worst death scene i've ever seen.
You're right, how did the cops come out clean shaven. It makes no more sense than Silva knowing about that train, it being empty during Rush Hour or Mallory not sending in the calvalry when he knew M's life was in danger and Silva had already taken the unexplained "bait."

My point is they both have plot holes, albeit they are much more glaring for me in Skyfall. I think the last act of TDKR works very well while I still have no bloody idea why Bond took M to Skyfall, why MI6 didn't show up or how he even had a car with Connery gadgets when reboot Q says they don't do that stuff. I also find it thematically very weak, because Bond comes back for "mum" and then fails to save her from Silva, thereby failing at his entire personal mission of the film. There may be something about the mortality of the adult and parent there, but it is muddled at best and doesn't work as an action film.

Different tastes. But the writing is much thinner in Skyfall and that is a fact. But people will prefer either one based on taste.

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:17 AM   #709
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silva wanted to be caught because he wanted to see and speak to "mommy" face to face first. he didn't just want to come in and kill her out of the blue.

how did silva know bond would corner him at that exact moment? who knows? who cares? maybe he didn't know and the train nearly crushing bond was a nice coincidence?

how the hell did thousands of cops survive in the sewers for 5 months on rations then come out fighting fit and clean shaven? how did a totally broke bruce wayne get back to gotham from the pit in a matter of days? why did he just completely forgive selina kyle after she led him into a trap which got his back broke?

the third act of skyfall is superior in my opinion. rises is too break neck for it's own good and the editing is terrible. the whole final third and the build up to it is a disjointed mess. amazing set pieces linked together by poorly edited scene transitions that leave you guessing what the time frame is. along with both villains going out like total chumps. one of which having perhaps the worst death scene i've ever seen.

Why did Bond retreat to Skyfall? he didn't even know if the old guy was alive or not,and on top of that it's a flipping wooden house.There was no back up either, why the heck was that train empty? Silva got himself captured just to say hello? couldn't he just have attacked M at the parliament and said hello there?

As I mentioned earlier you keep talking about problems,editing etc but you fail to name any specific examples,it's clear that you prefer Skyfall good for you I thought it was great too but you just seem to be trying too hard to convince people that Skyfall was better than Rises.

As far as the villains going out like chumps,well atleast Bane was shot by Batpod guns,while Talia's truck crashed.Silva on the other hand got stabbed just once and crumpled on to the floor.
Oh and Mr Big takes the worst villain death award lol.


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Old 12-16-2012, 04:41 AM   #710
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I disagree with pretty much everything you say here.

Kinda laughable actually.

TDKR has more layers, depth and meaning. Skyfall tried to get there, and in the end couldn't match it and I loved Skyfall. One of the best Bond films ever IMO.
You see, I think that is a misconception. I think that TDKR purports to have more layers, but when you view it analytically, they are just broken fibers which are undeveloped and remain completely collateral to the core of the movie- which is a very simple revenge/comeback yarn.

To me, TDKR has a very middlebrow feel. It is a simple movie wearing a lot of scent and makeup. I didn't get the same impression from TDK, which really did seem to defy the constraints of the genre.

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Old 12-16-2012, 06:49 AM   #711
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TDKR to me , has a lot more food for thought. Especially considering the genre. That's the main difference between this movies , and most action-oriented stories. And Rises in that aspect is even able to stand out comparing to Begins and TDK , which were movies that tried already to break the bubble. Rises completely smashes it. Its completely unprecedented in what tries to achieve.

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Old 12-16-2012, 07:00 AM   #712
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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You see, I think that is a misconception. I think that TDKR purports to have more layers, but when you view it analytically, they are just broken fibers which are undeveloped and remain completely collateral to the core of the movie- which is a very simple revenge/comeback yarn.

To me, TDKR has a very middlebrow feel. It is a simple movie wearing a lot of scent and makeup. I didn't get the same impression from TDK, which really did seem to defy the constraints of the genre.
I couldn't agree more. TDKR also reused a lot of the same plot furniture of BB (LOS trying to destroy Gotham with a Wayne Enterprises device, an Al Ghul pretending to be someone else etc), and in an inferior way, too, IMO.

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:25 AM   #713
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You see, I think that is a misconception. I think that TDKR purports to have more layers, but when you view it analytically, they are just broken fibers which are undeveloped and remain completely collateral to the core of the movie- which is a very simple revenge/comeback yarn.

To me, TDKR has a very middlebrow feel. It is a simple movie wearing a lot of scent and makeup. I didn't get the same impression from TDK, which really did seem to defy the constraints of the genre.
Awesome post. Total agreement.

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Old 12-16-2012, 08:34 AM   #714
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My problem with the Robin line is the way it's delivered. "ROBIN. I LIKE THAT!!1". Had the actress toned it down a bit, it would've come out different for me.

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Old 12-16-2012, 09:16 AM   #715
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She didn't even have to say ''I like that!''...

I imagine this was all Jonah's doing though. Frankly, I wish they never even mentioned the name at all.

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Old 12-16-2012, 10:32 AM   #716
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Actually, I thought the "I like that name" made it seem more natural, like she was genuinely talking to Blake, not the audience. Didn't even notice her saying that until my 3rd or 4th viewing because the audience was always flipping out after she said Robin

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TDKR to me , has a lot more food for thought. Especially considering the genre. That's the main difference between this movies , and most action-oriented stories. And Rises in that aspect is even able to stand out comparing to Begins and TDK , which were movies that tried already to break the bubble. Rises completely smashes it. Its completely unprecedented in what tries to achieve.
I agree. TDKR has as much depth as one could hope for.

I don't think it's middlebrow. I think it's low and high brow at the same time, which is what the "thinking man's action movie" is supposed to be. If you took it as a simple revenge plot, that's fine. The movie kind of guides you there. But as you said, there is a lot of food for thought and Bane and Talia's plan actually becomes more fascinating the more you reflect on it.

Nolan's movies are always built for multiple viewings, TDKR is no exception.

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Old 12-16-2012, 11:40 AM   #717
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Actually, I thought the "I like that name" made it seem more natural, like she was genuinely talking to Blake, not the audience. Didn't even notice her saying that until my 3rd or 4th viewing because the audience was always flipping out after she said Robin



I agree. TDKR has as much depth as one could hope for.

I don't think it's middlebrow. I think it's low and high brow at the same time, which is what the "thinking man's action movie" is supposed to be. If you took it as a simple revenge plot, that's fine. The movie kind of guides you there. But as you said, there is a lot of food for thought and Bane and Talia's plan actually becomes more fascinating the more you reflect on it.

Nolan's movies are always built for multiple viewings, TDKR is no exception.
Well described with the low and high brow. There is a surface level to TDKR, but there is also a much deeper level when you start digging in. When I read the criticisms of the film, most of them are just not accounting for the layers underneath that ARE there. Either they don't see/get them, or they think it's 'conjecture' if they don't blatantly tell you something, and therefore not worth their time. Not liking the decision is a whole other story, but many of the detractors continually seem to purposefully ignore important info Nolan is giving the audience.

Skyfall was like the opposite for me. It wanted to feel smart, and while it mostly succeed in stimulating me intellectually, it was pretty thin compared to any of the TDK trilogy films, and as a straight up action movie, I still don't get involved with much of it.

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Old 12-16-2012, 11:51 AM   #718
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I couldn't agree more. TDKR also reused a lot of the same plot furniture of BB (LOS trying to destroy Gotham with a Wayne Enterprises device, an Al Ghul pretending to be someone else etc), and in an inferior way, too, IMO.
It did, but it did it much better than BB. BB is much more of a conventional superhero action movie. I think in some ways it is better executed, but that is because it is following a well-worn formula that was already done by Donner and Raimi to name a few before Nolan got there.

He returns to the idea of a crazed cult-like organization returning to destroy its target years later--something we have seen in real life far too often--but develops it much further in using the "bomb" plot device from BB as more than just a doomsday weapon. It uses it as a way for the villain to have a military takeover of the city without being harmed by the US government and it allows Nolan to ask certain questions like what would happen if a brutal organization uses legitimate concerns to rile up a populist deconstruction of society for selfish needs.

I feel like the bomb in TDKR is about going to a darker, more interesting place. The plotting in BB was just to give the movie a big finale. So, before you keep comparing the two, I think we should look at how the third movie does it better in some ways.

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Old 12-16-2012, 11:53 AM   #719
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She didn't even have to say ''I like that!''...

I imagine this was all Jonah's doing though. Frankly, I wish they never even mentioned the name at all.
Why not? It was a great wink and a nod and it killed at the several screenings I saw in July. Audiences went nuts in a good way.

I do not understand why fans get so finnicky about any wry wink from the Nolan movies. In Skyfall it is brilliant, but here it is ruinous? I just do not get it.

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Old 12-16-2012, 12:20 PM   #720
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Why not? It was a great wink and a nod and it killed at the several screenings I saw in July. Audiences went nuts in a good way.

I do not understand why fans get so finnicky about any wry wink from the Nolan movies. In Skyfall it is brilliant, but here it is ruinous? I just do not get it.
Again, it's how she says it. Robin, I like that name. Don't you like it??

The problem, for me, is the "conviction" in which the words are spoken, like she doesn't want you to miss the fact that he is Robin. Robin. R-O-B-I-N. She breaks the 4th wall for me. I realize now that I've been thinking too much about this woman's performance, but since people brought up the Robin thing ...

Maybe it would've been better if JGL had said the name, I'm sure he would've made it sound a bit more natural, instead of just handing her his ID as if his name was Voldemort

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Old 12-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #721
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Again, it's how she says it. Robin, I like that name. Don't you like it??

The problem, for me, is the "conviction" in which the words are spoken, like she doesn't want you to miss the fact that he is Robin. Robin. R-O-B-I-N. She breaks the 4th wall for me. I realize now that I've been thinking too much about this woman's performance, but since people brought up the Robin thing ...

Maybe it would've been better if JGL had said the name, I'm sure he would've made it sound a bit more natural, instead of just handing her his ID as if his name was Voldemort
It's the other way around: 'I like that name, Robin.'

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Old 12-16-2012, 03:29 PM   #722
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TDKR will always remain the low point of the series for me. I found the entire thing pretty conventional. While Batman begins and maybe even TDK had some conventionality to them, Begins offered me a darker Batman movie then I had seen before, and for that, I'm grateful to Nolan.

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Old 12-16-2012, 04:35 PM   #723
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It did, but it did it much better than BB. BB is much more of a conventional superhero action movie. I think in some ways it is better executed, but that is because it is following a well-worn formula that was already done by Donner and Raimi to name a few before Nolan got there.
No, it didn't do it much better than BB. It was the exact same formula only much more dragged out. In Begins the Microwave emitter is simply a device used to bring Ra's and Batman together in a clash. It was also symbolic of how their methods to bring justice to a city were so different. It wasn't dragged out, it wasn't overly focused on and it served a simple but effective purpose.

Since you mentioned Raimi, he handled it better than both Nolan and Donner did, because Doc Ock's fusion reactor was never intended to be a lethal device by the villain. It was a physical manifestation of Ock's life's dream, and served as a parallel to Peter Parker's arc. Peter was being irresponsible by giving up being Spider-Man so he could live his dream of a normal life, and Ock was being irresponsible by doing evil things to make his dream happen. In the end they both take responsibility and give up their dreams to do the right thing.

The fusion reactor did not even become a threat until the end when Ock rebuilt it, much like how the microwave emitter didn't become a threat until the finale either. Whereas Gotham was living under 5 months of the threat of a ticking time bomb dragged out to the hilt. TDKR milked the city being under threat of it for that long just to give Bruce the time to recover in the pit and escape and make a big comeback. That's all. Another Batman busting his hump to stop another lethal Wayne Enterprises device an Al Ghul in disguise is using to destroy Gotham.

If you think that's some kind of brilliant innovative writing then fair play to you. But I think it was just a tired recycling of a plot line used already in this franchise. A very inferior version, too.

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So, before you keep comparing the two, I think we should look at how the third movie does it better in some ways.
I would if I thought it did. But I don't.

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Old 12-16-2012, 05:02 PM   #724
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by regwec View Post
You see, I think that is a misconception. I think that TDKR purports to have more layers, but when you view it analytically, they are just broken fibers which are undeveloped and remain completely collateral to the core of the movie- which is a very simple revenge/comeback yarn.

To me, TDKR has a very middlebrow feel. It is a simple movie wearing a lot of scent and makeup. I didn't get the same impression from TDK, which really did seem to defy the constraints of the genre.



Well your kind of comparing TDK to TDKR which doesn't make sense since this about Skyfall and TDKR now.

TDKR just had more meaning and depth as an overall urban war film that is the end of a trilogy. Plus it was executed properly. It may have not been perfect for some, nor did it need to be, but that is based on personal opinion and it is all subjective.

When comparing the two, Skyfall also loses points because Silvas' characterization and actions are basically a rip off of the Joker from TDK.

Mendes influence was also the TDK reportedly as well. I think the fight scenes, stunts and SFX are better in TDKR overall also.


Last edited by Dark Knight; 12-16-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:06 PM   #725
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Default Re: TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

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Originally Posted by DACrowe View Post
It did, but it did it much better than BB. BB is much more of a conventional superhero action movie. I think in some ways it is better executed, but that is because it is following a well-worn formula that was already done by Donner and Raimi to name a few before Nolan got there.

He returns to the idea of a crazed cult-like organization returning to destroy its target years later--something we have seen in real life far too often--but develops it much further in using the "bomb" plot device from BB as more than just a doomsday weapon. It uses it as a way for the villain to have a military takeover of the city without being harmed by the US government and it allows Nolan to ask certain questions like what would happen if a brutal organization uses legitimate concerns to rile up a populist deconstruction of society for selfish needs.

I feel like the bomb in TDKR is about going to a darker, more interesting place. The plotting in BB was just to give the movie a big finale. So, before you keep comparing the two, I think we should look at how the third movie does it better in some ways.


Exactly. Some of these threads just grow tiresome. The same small group of fanboys who didn't like TDKR, just complaining about the same stuff over and over again until someone understands their point of view.

Tedious and kind of annoying really.

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