TDKR Oscar Chances? - Part 1

[DACrowe]

Really, TDK? If I recall, that is probably the only superhero movie besides The Avengers where the protagonist spends more time in costume than out.

Yes, I am sure toy manufacturers and some children can be disappointed that there isn't enough superheroics. But after two films of Nolan's vision, I figure most viewers are in it for the character's journey and not just the SFX and big set pieces. And it really does not matter to me if that character is in a costume or not during most of his scenes.

[I Am The Knight]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I think it's nitpicking. It didn't break the fourth wall. She naturally explains that she likes it. It is done as a "blink and you miss it" type of moment in how quick and passing it is. Compare that to the big reveal of Moneypenny or literally ending Skyfall with Bond call Mallory M in the original office, complete with a freaking freeze frame.

To be clear, I like both approaches, but I loved it in July and everyone I saw it with reacted well. This is just a weird online thing.

I am personally not talking about Skyfall, or comparing it to TDKR, even though that's what people are doing here.

"She naturally explains that she likes it" ? I don't think she says it naturally. In fact she's stating it in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. Nolan naming Blake "Robin" is silly, altough there is nothing wrong with the line about liking the name, but the way she delivers it is just bad. It sounded like a voice over for a commercial.

[CJ]

DACrowe, your posts seem to imply a smug sense of film-snobbery.



"Oh how cute! You watch Batman movies for BATMAN!

I, however, am more refined. I like to watch the deep and complex personality of Bruce Wayne, as he develops through Christopher Nolan's.. masterpiece of a film trilogy.

Christian Bale gives an EXQUISITE performance as Bruce Wayne. It is a crime that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences have not given this man an Oscar for his contributions to this amazing piece of cinematic perfection.

I love watching his character develop through his business affairs at Wayne enterprises, his benefit for the re-election of Harvey Dent as Gotham's district attorney, his clean energy program that would benefit the city of Gotham, and his charitable efforts.

But of course, YOU PEOPLE wouldn't like a Batman movie for something so.. how shall I say.. "above" your intelligence level. You're the type of person who watches Batman movies for a silly man in a cape who exchanges blows with a psychopath in a clown outfit, staring the screen drooling like a neanderthal whenever the Batmobile shows up and cheering like a buffoon at every explosion that occurs onscreen.

It doesn't surprise me that you're clamoring for more Batman in The Dark Knight Rises. You simply don't understand Nolan's vision in the way that I do.

Might I recommend Michael Bay's Transformers? Those movies seem like something more suited for your.. "tastes"

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

Well, you see....the bolded part is my problem. I didn't feel like it was a Batman movie.

When you make a movie about terrorists taking over a major American city for five months...you really should show how the people react to that. Doesn't matter if it is a Batman movie or a James Bond movie. You see how it effects people other than the primary characters. The city looked deserted.

Exactly

[BatLobsterRises]

I don't think there's anything snobby about enjoying seeing Bruce Wayne on screen just as much as Batman. As Goyer has said, with Batman Begins their whole aim was to get the audience to be invested in Bruce Wayne before he ever put on the costume. They wanted the audience to care about the guy, not impress film snobs about how little Batman they could put into a movie and still call it Batman. Some of my favorite moments in the trilogy are where the two personas converge, like in TDK where Bruce goes out on the motorbike and Lambo during the day to try and stop The Joker.

The first half of Batman Begins and the stuff in the Pit is among my favorite material of the trilogy. It's what perhaps more than anything else, separates this cinematic version of the character from previous ones.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I don't think there's anything snobby about enjoying seeing Bruce Wayne on screen just as much as Batman. As Goyer has said, with Batman Begins their whole aim was to get the audience to be invested in Bruce Wayne before he ever put on the costume. They wanted the audience to care about the guy, not impress film snobs about how little Batman they could put into a movie and still call it Batman. Some of my favorite moments in the trilogy are where the two personas converge, like in TDK where Bruce goes out on the motorbike and Lambo during the day to try and stop The Joker.

The first half of Batman Begins and the stuff in the Pit is among my favorite material of the trilogy. It's what perhaps more than anything else, separates this cinematic version of the character from previous ones.

Raimi had a similar philosophy and despite the critical and commercial success of Spider-Man 2 he took some criticism for tossing Spidey's mask aside whenever he could. He felt that the audience would relate better to the character's plight if the audience could see Tobey's face as much as possible.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Raimi had a similar philosophy and despite the critical and commercial success of Spider-Man 2 he took some criticism for tossing Spidey's mask aside whenever he could. He felt that the audience would better relate to the character's plight if the audience could see Tobey's face as much as possible.

Very true....but Christian Bale, Tobey Maguire ain't

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Agent Orange

Raimi had a similar philosophy and despite the critical and commercial success of Spider-Man 2 he took some criticism for tossing Spidey's mask aside whenever he could. He felt that the audience would relate better to the character's plight if the audience could see Tobey's face as much as possible.

That makes more sense considering the Spider-Man mask completely obscures an actor's face altogether to the point where anyone could be under that mask because it hides everything.

Batman's mask shows the eyes and lower half of the face of the actor. You still get to see the man in the costume. Not the case with Spider-Man. The mask hides all emotion. That's why Raimi had the mask come off at every opportunity.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Very true....but Christian Bale, Tobey Maguire ain't

And Bruce would laugh at Peter's paltry concerns.

All kidding aside, I feel that Nolan and Raimi's approaches were immensely successful. My father doesn't care much for "Batman" but when I showed him Batman Begins a few years ago he sure cared about that Bruce Wayne guy.

[Agent Orange]

Originally Posted by The Joker

That makes more sense considering the Spider-Man mask completely obscures an actor's face altogether to the point where anyone could be under that mask because it hides everything.

Batman's mask shows the eyes and lower half of the face of the actor. You still get to see the man in the costume. Not the case with Spider-Man. The mask hides all emotion. That's why Raimi had the mask come off at every opportunity.

Yeah, I agree with this. Still, Raimi took criticism from militant Spider-Man fans for the choice.

[Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by I Am The Knight

I am personally not talking about Skyfall, or comparing it to TDKR, even though that's what people are doing here.

"She naturally explains that she likes it" ? I don't think she says it naturally. In fact she's stating it in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. Nolan naming Blake "Robin" is silly, altough there is nothing wrong with the line about liking the name, but the way she delivers it is just bad. It sounded like a voice over for a commercial.

Ooookay. How is this not nitpicking again?

[Dark Knight]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

In TDKR, they at least succeed in getting most of the audience to believe the hero could and did die at the end--I regret I figured out Batman would live with Catwoman when we see Alfred's Florence fantasy in the first 30 minutes--but at least it yielded for me an interesting storyline never done before.

Yep!

Quoted for truth!

[CJ]

I have no problem with seeing Bruce Wayne's journey unfold. Like others have said, some of my favorite scenes in the Nolan trilogy are just about Bruce Wayne.

His flashback of being pulled out of the well by his father, his training with Ras Al Ghul, his conversation with Alfred after Rachel's death..

Bruce is what makes Batman.. Batman. Bruce Wayne is the reason why we care about Batman so much. Becuase we, the viewer are so invested in the character through all of his trials.

But it's comments like this..

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Yes, I am sure toy manufacturers and some children can be disappointed that there isn't enough superheroics.

That annoy me. It implies a sense of "You only watch Batman for explosions and fight scenes. How ignorant. You aren't watching the movie right. I like the journey of Bruce Wayne."

There's nothing wrong with giving Bruce Wayne a focus. Batman Begins didn't show Batman until an hour into the movie, and I loved every minute of it. But Batman Begins didn't forget that it is a BATMAN movie. There was plenty of Batman later on. There was a balance.

TDKR didn't have a balance. There was hardly any Batman in it at all.

Let me ask you this: When the trailers for this movie came out, tell me, were you more pumped for the scenes of Bruce Wayne as a recluse, or his battles with Bane?

Were you more excited to see scenes of Bruce talking with Alfred? (I admit those scenes are good though) or did you want to see Batman's first meeting with Catwoman?

Were you more excited to see the epic finale, telling us how Batman's journey would end, or did you just want to see Bruce sitting in the pit?

Or, let me ask you this: Did you think the videogame, Batman: Arkham Asylum, wasn't any good because Batman never took off his mask?

Just because Bruce Wayne has a mask on, doesn't mean he isn't Bruce Wayne anymore. He's still there underneath that mask.

I think it's a legitimate complaint to say TDKR needed more Batman.
Batman was only in it for 20 minutes total, and that's out of a movie that's nearly THREE HOURS LONG.

I think it was a huge error on Nolan's part to have so much focus on Blake, a (boring) new character, in a finale to the Batman story.

As someone else said in this forum, I feel like TDKR prevents Nolan's trilogy from being perfect.

I wish he could have a "do-over" movie. Just have Nolan come in an say: "Hey guys, Yeah, I agree, that last one wasn't so good. Forget that movie ever happened. We're gonna try again to do a proper end to this trilogy."

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by CJ

DACrowe, your posts seem to imply a smug sense of film-snobbery.



"Oh how cute! You watch Batman movies for BATMAN!

I, however, am more refined. I like to watch the deep and complex personality of Bruce Wayne, as he develops through Christopher Nolan's.. masterpiece of a film trilogy.

Christian Bale gives an EXQUISITE performance as Bruce Wayne. It is a crime that the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences have not given this man an Oscar for his contributions to this amazing piece of cinematic perfection.

I love watching his character develop through his business affairs at Wayne enterprises, his benefit for the re-election of Harvey Dent as Gotham's district attorney, his clean energy program that would benefit the city of Gotham, and his charitable efforts.

But of course, YOU PEOPLE wouldn't like a Batman movie for something so.. how shall I say.. "above" your intelligence level. You're the type of person who watches Batman movies for a silly man in a cape who exchanges blows with a psychopath in a clown outfit, staring the screen drooling like a neanderthal whenever the Batmobile shows up and cheering like a buffoon at every explosion that occurs onscreen.

It doesn't surprise me that you're clamoring for more Batman in The Dark Knight Rises. You simply don't understand Nolan's vision in the way that I do.

Might I recommend Michael Bay's Transformers? Those movies seem like something more suited for your.. "tastes"

Besides revealing the personality of a smug poster who is really bad at comedy writing, that was a really, really stupid post.

Because I say what's wrong with the movie focusing on the character out of costume as much (or more) in costume, I'm an...elitist. <shudders>

No, my point is whether he is in costume or not, it is the same character we've been following for three films. The only time he isn't "The Dark Knight" (whether in costume or not) are the scenes where he plays Bruce Wayne: Playboy Billionaire which are barely even in TDKR. It is about the protagonist's journey and I didn't really notice he wasn't in the costume a lot. If that makes me a snob not to care, I guess pass the wine and cheese. At least, it is better than being someone who is so insecure about his own opinion he has some random anti-intellectual need to project disdain at random strangers.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by CJ

Let me ask you this: When the trailers for this movie came out, tell me, were you more pumped for the scenes of Bruce Wayne as a recluse, or his battles with Bane?

Were you more excited to see scenes of Bruce talking with Alfred? (I admit those scenes are good though) or did you want to see Batman's first meeting with Catwoman?

Were you more excited to see the epic finale, telling us how Batman's journey would end, or did you just want to see Bruce sitting in the pit?

Honestly...I was pumped for all of it. I can indeed say I was pumped to watch Bruce rebuild himself physically and spiritually in the pit. From the first teaser, I became intrigued as to why Bruce was doing pushups in a prison and wanted to find out more. I was as interested to see how Bruce was coping 8 years after the events of TDK as I was to see him fight Bane. The whole package excited me.

I'm all for more Batman, it's just that I enjoyed the Bruce Wayne moments too much to notice, and I feel Bale really excelled in them and embodied the emotional core of the movie. The climb out of the pit is by far my favorite scene of the whole film. I enjoyed how Batman had a mythical quality in this film and felt like a larger than life presence when he was on screen. The return chase scene is among my favorite Batman moments in any movie. But when you take him out of the costume and out of his element for an extended period of time, reducing him back to being just a man, there's a whole other emotional world that you can explore and I'm glad TDKR went there. I suppose it'd be one thing if I wasn't pleased with the Batman scenes that there were, but I loved them all. It left me wanting more, in a good way.

Of course, everyone will have their preferences and expectations and that's fine. It's not the first time a Batman film has been accused of not featuring the title character enough, as Burton got a lot of flak with that for Batman Returns . I was actually shocked to learn how little screen time Batman clocked in for TDKR, cause it didn't feel that way to me. And that to me, is a testament to how engrossed I was in the story. I never felt myself getting impatient for Batman's next appearance. So it does become kind of hard for me to fret too much over how many actual minutes we got.

It's a different story if one didn't care for the movie as much though.

[DACrowe]

Originally Posted by CJ

But it's comments like this..



That annoy me. It implies a sense of "You only watch Batman for explosions and fight scenes. How ignorant. You aren't watching the movie right. I like the journey of Bruce Wayne."

I was responding to this post:

Originally Posted by Ryan

Its what brought me to the theatre. I imagine most toy manufacturers have a wider ratio of selling Batman figures over Bruce Wayne.

I brought up toy manufacturers in response to that, smart guy. But please continue projecting your straw man arguments onto me and putting words in my mouth. But please, next time, know at least what I was saying.

P.S. I was excited for the whole movie. I didn't post here a whole lot to avoid spoilers. I wasn't even sure there was a backbreaking in this or that Alfred was going to leave Bruce. I just wanted a really good story about the character. When watching it, I didn't think, "Man, where's Batman." But again, if that makes me a snob, pass the cheese and wine.

[TheDarkKnight08]

Well, honestly, what did people expect from a movie semi-based on Knightfall? He spends a good part of that story out of costume after his fight with Bane, recuperating.

Personally, I didn't see the costume as important as Bruce Wayne's story in the context of this story. If it had been BB or TDK, it would've been another story completely. TDKR was Bruce Wayne's film and his resurgence as Batman.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

Besides revealing the personality of a smug poster who is really bad at comedy writing, that was a really, really stupid post.

The post was meant to be a little bit stupid. I thought the Squilliam picture would've gotten the point across. I was purposefully exaggerating.

I was a little harsh. I came here to make friends, not enemies, so I apologize for anything rude I said.

I just got the jist from some of your posts that anyone who wants more Batman in the movie is somehow ignorant and that got me irritated.

I was responding to this post:

[Quote="Ryan"]
Its what brought me to the theatre. I imagine most toy manufacturers have a wider ratio of selling Batman figures over Bruce Wayne.

I brought up toy manufacturers in response to that, smart guy. But please continue projecting your straw man arguments onto me and putting words in my mouth. But please, next time, know at least what I was saying.[/quote]
I didn't know that, my apologies.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by Dark Knight

Well your kind of comparing TDK to TDKR which doesn't make sense since this about Skyfall and TDKR now.

TDKR just had more meaning and depth as an overall urban war film that is the end of a trilogy.

So, its meaning and depth is...that it is an 'urban war film'. And the end of a trilogy.

Not exactly Dostoyevsky, is it?

Originally Posted by Dark Knight

When comparing the two, Skyfall also loses points because Silvas' characterization and actions are basically a rip off of the Joker from TDK.

Who was the Oedipal mother-figure who had caused The Joker's disfigurement and formed the center of his plot for vengeance?

I suppose you mean that both Silva and The Joker allowed themselves to get captured. Well, that plot device is as old as the hills. Robin Hood was doing it before motion pictures had been invented.

In any case, TDKR was a rip off of BB. So, if it did rip off TDK, at least Skyfall chose a better film.

Originally Posted by Dark Knight

Mendes influence was also the TDK reportedly as well.

I'm sure he was influenced by a lot of things. Not least 50 years of Bond films.

Originally Posted by Dark Knight

I think the fight scenes, stunts and SFX are better in TDKR overall also.

Respectfully, I really don't think so.

[Tequilla]

Wow , toy manufactures ? Film snob ? Rip off ?

Hilarious to say the least.

Reading this board is kinda clear why american movie industry produces the movies it makes. There's little to no space , trying to create well developed , dramatic thematic stories , that take itself seriously and respect the characters. No. People want Batman just kicking some one. Who cares for the fundamental conflict of Bruce Wayne. His legacy. His sacrifice. Naaaah. I dont know why you guys complain so much , considering 99% of blockbusters are that sort of garbage you describe. At least , let us have the 1%. Good movies , that have something to tell.

Watch more movies , especially outside your little bubble. You will find great gems. This has been a fantastic year for worldwide cinema. Celebrate that by watching them.

Rises is a monumental achievement , considering the industry where its made. A movie that tries to push the limits of the genre.

Toys......wow. I can't even comment that.

[CJ]

See, Tequilla, that's the attitude I'm talking about. Thinking that anyone who wants more Batman in the movie is automatically ignorant and has poor tastes in film.

You can still tell a compelling story with Bruce in the batsuit. The movie doesn't automatically become lowbrow, Transformers-style entertainment just because he's wearing the mask.

I could go on, but I'd just be repeating myself.

I've grown to appreciate Rises a little more, but I still find it to be the weakest in the trilogy.

Batman Begins, THAT was a monumental achievement. TDK, THAT was a monumental achievement. But Rises? ..eh.

Poor writing (In comparison to the first two, anyway) an uninteresting premise for both Bruce Wayne and Batman, a lack of action (Say whatever you want, but Batman is an ACTION franchise. It's kind of necessary to put a lot of that stuff into the film) lackluster villain choices, plot points from TDK that basically went nowhere, pointless retreads of ground already covered in Batman Begins, and an absolutely dull finale, makes it my least favorite out of the three.

[Tequilla]

CJ someone brought toys to the conversation......toys. How can you escape that ? Toys.............

Just like you extrapolate about the poor taste in films , didn't a user got called snob because he enjoyed the movies ? It goes both ways. They are both wrong.

[C. Lee]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

Wow , toy manufactures ? Film snob ? Rip off ?

Hilarious to say the least.

Reading this board is kinda clear why american movie industry produces the movies it makes. There's little to no space , trying to create well developed , dramatic thematic stories , that take itself seriously and respect the characters. No. People want Batman just kicking some one. Who cares for the fundamental conflict of Bruce Wayne. His legacy. His sacrifice. Naaaah. I dont know why you guys complain so much , considering 99% of blockbusters are that sort of garbage you describe. At least , let us have the 1%. Good movies , that have something to tell.

Watch more movies , especially outside your little bubble. You will find great gems. This has been a fantastic year for worldwide cinema. Celebrate that by watching them.

Rises is a monumental achievement , considering the industry where its made. A movie that tries to push the limits of the genre.

Toys......wow. I can't even comment that.

I'm 56 years old. I've watched thousands of movies. From all countries and all decades. I have a collection of thousands from all genres. It's nice to know that because I didn't like TDKR that I live in a bubble and don't UNDERSTAND CINEMA.

How many times do I have to tell you people....DIFFERENT PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS FROM YOU....AND THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM WRONG OR STUPID OR NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND....IT MAKES THEM SOMEONE WITH A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOURS.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by C. Lee

I'm 56 years old. I've watched thousands of movies. From all countries and all decades. I have a collection of thousands from all genres. It's nice to know that because I didn't like TDKR that I live in a bubble and don't UNDERSTAND CINEMA.

How many times do I have to tell you people....DIFFERENT PEOPLE CAN HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS FROM YOU....AND THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM WRONG OR STUPID OR NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND....IT MAKES THEM SOMEONE WITH A DIFFERENT OPINION THAN YOURS.

Wow , you didnt get the irony. Damn. Sorry.

Didnt you see that big post calling someone else a smug film snob ?

[C. Lee]

This is to everyone in here.

EVERYONE IS ALLOWED TO EXPRESS THEIR OPINION WITHOUT BEING RIDICULED OR CALLED NAMES FOR IT.