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Old 12-28-2012, 12:29 AM   #851
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Bruce having a woman/family of his own was a narrative through-line from Knight. It was representative of the "normal life" Bruce tries to make for himself with Rachel in that film that ends up evaporating when she does, which ties in to his eventual hermetic, empty existence at the start of Rises. Alfred and Lucius' suggestions for Bruce to hook up with Selina and Tate is explicitly for Bruce to get back into the world, i.e. start living his life. Ironically this actually works though it mainly succeeds in getting Bruce back into being Batman. So I do think having Bruce end up with a girl in his new life is essential and that Selina was the best character for that, considering her redemptive arc (contrasting Tate/Talia's destructive one) that illustrates that she is Bruce's true soulmate.

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Old 12-28-2012, 02:00 AM   #852
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Those are fair points. However, a new start afresh for Bruce doesn't necessarily have to be with a woman at all. For example an ending akin to that in The Shawshank Redemption could have been more than acceptable, imo. Only this time with Alfred meeting up with Bruce at the end.
See, I think we already have hints of the 'shawshank redemption'-esque ending with Alfred finally seeing Bruce ready to start anew. I mean, sure, it's not the exact same thing, but I think it was important to also see Bruce finally finding a potential soulmate after the whole Rachel thing. Because the latter was never truly a love interest, she was the last drop of innocence he had from before his parents' murder. He was naive to look at her as such, but she basically represented his life without Batman, without the tragedy that defined him. To me, that's not really romantic love, and to see Bruce finally finding a genuine romantic interest was very satisfying to me.

It was probably the best way of showing he had moved on and was ready to start fresh considering that the other woman in his life represented the opposite.

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I think Bruce deserved to find happiness with a woman after 8 years of bearing the weight of Rachel's death on his shoulders. Him going steady with a woman was the perfect way to illustrate him choosing a normal life and the fact that he had moved on from Rachel. If he was sitting at that table with another random bimbo it wouldn't show any growth.

Bruce Wayne and Selina Kyle giving a life beyond Gotham a chance was very emotionally satisfying for me. That shot brings a smile to my face every time.
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Bruce having a woman/family of his own was a narrative through-line from Knight. It was representative of the "normal life" Bruce tries to make for himself with Rachel in that film that ends up evaporating when she does, which ties in to his eventual hermetic, empty existence at the start of Rises. Alfred and Lucius' suggestions for Bruce to hook up with Selina and Tate is explicitly for Bruce to get back into the world, i.e. start living his life. Ironically this actually works though it mainly succeeds in getting Bruce back into being Batman. So I do think having Bruce end up with a girl in his new life is essential and that Selina was the best character for that, considering her redemptive arc (contrasting Tate/Talia's destructive one) that illustrates that she is Bruce's true soulmate.
Precisely.

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Old 12-28-2012, 02:12 AM   #853
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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One thing I think most of us can agree on is that the potential introduction and inclusion of Talia in BB, possibly at the expense of Rachel Dawes was a real big missed oppotunity.
This is an entirely different kettle of fish. You know, despite most people not really looking positively upon the character of Rachel, I think she was essential to Nolan's take on Bruce Wayne. In this sense, I wouldn't have left her out in any way, but introducing Talia back in BB might've worked although it's rather complicated.

Maybe she could've been introduced at the ending, following Ra's' own attack on Gotham and his death. Maybe she would've been a replacement of sorts for Earle and she could've had a peripheral role in TDK as well, with hints of her aspirations for a clean energy project, as well as hints of also being attracted to Bruce. Then again, I don't think Nolan thought of including her until TDKR, so this is all rather moot. It's fun to speculate though.

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Old 12-28-2012, 02:36 AM   #854
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I think they were trying to hit (resolve) 2 (or more like 3) stones (character endings) at once by showing Alfred seeing Bruce and Selina together at the end: a) It gives Alfred some peace of mind by making his fantasy for Bruce a reality; b) It shows that Bruce is alive and giving a normal life a chance; c) It shows that Selina made it out of Gotham and is getting her "fresh start" as well. At least that's how I took it.
The same here, and I don't think Bruce & Selina's relationship is overrated. Some people will go to extremes to dislike something.

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Old 12-28-2012, 02:40 AM   #855
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This is an entirely different kettle of fish. You know, despite most people not really looking positively upon the character of Rachel, I think she was essential to Nolan's take on Bruce Wayne. In this sense, I wouldn't have left her out in any way, but introducing Talia back in BB might've worked although it's rather complicated.

Maybe she could've been introduced at the ending, following Ra's' own attack on Gotham and his death. Maybe she would've been a replacement of sorts for Earle and she could've had a peripheral role in TDK as well, with hints of her aspirations for a clean energy project, as well as hints of also being attracted to Bruce. Then again, I don't think Nolan thought of including her until TDKR, so this is all rather moot. It's fun to speculate though.
Rachel, imho, could've been one of THE key characters if she'd been played by a better actress(es). Frankly, I even smiled a bit when she died in TDK.

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Old 12-28-2012, 04:35 AM   #856
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Rachel, imho, could've been one of THE key characters if she'd been played by a better actress(es). Frankly, I even smiled a bit when she died in TDK.
The role she plays in Bruce's character arch is key, whether you liked Katie and Maggie's takes or not. I thought they were both solid, nothing spectacular and I would've loved to have seen Rebecca Hall in the role throughout BB and TDK, but what we got was fine.

I've always considered the Rachel hate when she was played by Maggie weird and I've mostly seen it associated with such luminary reasons as 'she's a butterface'. What was so smile-worthy about her death for you?

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Old 12-28-2012, 07:06 AM   #857
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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I wholeheartedly agree, actually, even with the bit about Selina feeling tacked on. I'm with you on that, and I'll most likely get destroyed for it too. Hathaway's Catwoman was charming and had a good character for sure, but I wasn't a fan of how she was worked into the story quite frankly.

I appreciated the nice chemistry and exchanges she had with Bale, but she very much felt like an outside party to the plot's focus the way I saw it and I found that there was a blatant fanservice aspect to her inclusion rather than a feeling of belonging at times. Like you say, she helps strenghen Bruce's character and plays off him well but she was along for the ride mostly and to fill the void of a partner for Bruce to be happy with at the end.

Sometimes I truly feel like if they weren't rushing to make this the final entry in the franchise we wouldn't be feeling the weight of all this baggage on the film and it would have given it more of a chance to breathe as a story. If Jonah's thought process was "you can't end the franchise without Catwoman [or Robin]", he would probably have done better convincing Chris to just, y'know, wait a little longer to end it so that you don't unload all these big can of worms on one film that might not suit them.

I understand Nolan's fear of episodicness and wanting to finish his mythos with all the essential elements but you can only really do one or the other without cutting off the fat imho, otherwise it comes off unsatisfying and that's how it turned out for me. Nolan didn't really pick a side there, he did both, kind of like the ending was Batman becoming a matyr figure but the symbol lives on through Blake at the same time. I feel like one negates the other and leaves you with a bit of a mess.
Hey Nev, good to see you back again. Merry Christmas, old friend.

With regards to your post, Hathaway's Selina is by FAR my favorite element of this movie. The movie lifted every time she came on screen. But I have to concede that she was lacking character development and more screen time. That was one of my complaints, we did not get enough Selina.

I know Nolan had to be convinced to use her, and thankfully it didn't turn out like a Venom in Spider-Man 3 scenario. But given how over stuffed the plot was, what we got could have been much worse. In fact given how great Selina was, it makes me see how much more we could have gotten if Talia was (and should have been) removed from the plot altogether, and Selina was the primary and sole female lead in the movie.

There was no chemistry with between Bale and Cottiard, and the only scene Marion got to show any real acting talent was in Talia's reveal.

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Old 12-28-2012, 08:57 AM   #858
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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This is the type of ending I wanted. IMO, in the comics Bruce shouldn't end up with Selina or Talia and TDKR only strengthened my belief. I agree with pretty much everything you and Nev have said. Ultimately, cramming Selina and Talia in one movie weakened both. I get that a lot of people loved Bruce and Selina's interactions, but I find their relationship shallow and overrated in the film, even though Bale and Hathaway have chemistry. And I don't need to go into how disappointing Bruce/Miranda was. It would've been better and less cliche to have Bruce ride off alone into the sunset, cause you don't need a spouse to be happy.
Agreed, on all counts.

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Old 12-28-2012, 08:58 AM   #859
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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See, I think we already have hints of the 'shawshank redemption'-esque ending with Alfred finally seeing Bruce ready to start anew. I mean, sure, it's not the exact same thing, but I think it was important to also see Bruce finally finding a potential soulmate after the whole Rachel thing. Because the latter was never truly a love interest, she was the last drop of innocence he had from before his parents' murder. He was naive to look at her as such, but she basically represented his life without Batman, without the tragedy that defined him. To me, that's not really romantic love, and to see Bruce finally finding a genuine romantic interest was very satisfying to me.

It was probably the best way of showing he had moved on and was ready to start fresh considering that the other woman in his life represented the opposite.
Fair points.

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Old 12-28-2012, 09:04 AM   #860
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This is an entirely different kettle of fish. You know, despite most people not really looking positively upon the character of Rachel, I think she was essential to Nolan's take on Bruce Wayne. In this sense, I wouldn't have left her out in any way, but introducing Talia back in BB might've worked although it's rather complicated.

Maybe she could've been introduced at the ending, following Ra's' own attack on Gotham and his death. Maybe she would've been a replacement of sorts for Earle and she could've had a peripheral role in TDK as well, with hints of her aspirations for a clean energy project, as well as hints of also being attracted to Bruce. Then again, I don't think Nolan thought of including her until TDKR, so this is all rather moot. It's fun to speculate though.
Yeah, in truth I'm not a true advocate for the complete eradication of the Rachel Dawes character, as I'm likely one of those in the minority camp that actually liked her, which is why I only said 'possibly' originally.

However, had Talia been introduced, appeared and been directly linked/appeared with Ra's, Bruce and maybe Batman in BB, it may haven given her character in this series slightly more meaning, depth and presence, even in and with the depleted form we basically got of her in TDKR. The twist/reveal in TDKR would have most likely been redundant then as she would have been known Bruce, but instead we could have gotten more Bane-Talia scenes. Though that would also have likely overcrowded the film even more, lol.


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Old 12-28-2012, 09:11 AM   #861
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Jonah probably thought the jumble of characters worked fine in his 400 page script. Problem is, something that long was never going to be a movie.

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Old 12-28-2012, 11:27 AM   #862
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I actually think Marion and Bale worked better on screen than Bale/Maggie and Bale/Holmes.

She had that exotic quality to her. With the Bruce/Selina scenes the chemistry was very real and in the moment, they had that great banter. With Miranda, the scenes felt more dream-like. Almost like Bruce was falling into the familiar trap of placing all his faith in the future on one woman (like he did with Rachel), with Talia intentionally playing on that weakness. Bruce was more attracted to the idea of what Miranda represented, very similarly to his feelings towards Rachel, I'd argue. It's all a very forced construct, where everything is all neat and perfect. Whereas with Selina, it was a much more human and organic courtship, and very imperfect. I liked the contrast there, and I liked how Miranda/Talia picked up some of the threads left by Rachel as well as her father.

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Old 12-28-2012, 02:22 PM   #863
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The role she plays in Bruce's character arch is key, whether you liked Katie and Maggie's takes or not. I thought they were both solid, nothing spectacular and I would've loved to have seen Rebecca Hall in the role throughout BB and TDK, but what we got was fine.

I've always considered the Rachel hate when she was played by Maggie weird and I've mostly seen it associated with such luminary reasons as 'she's a butterface'.
I always felt Maggie's version was too cold and distant, at least toward Bruce. Even though she was in the right, and even I woulda told her to go for Dent, Maggie didn't even really seem to have much warmth for Bale's Bruce.

Katie's Rachel at least had warmth to her , and you believed she cared for Bruce. She may not chose him as her mate , but you believed that she was fond of him and wanted him to be happy. Maggie's was very distant toward Bruce ,though she had great chemistry with Dent.

Ultimately though, it was a weakly written role , and i'm not sure if someone better could have really made a difference. The Nolan's are quite weak when it comes to writing women , and I think Hathaway probably brought alot more charm and charisma to Selina then was on the page.

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Old 12-28-2012, 04:01 PM   #864
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

It always irritates me when this thread goes from discussing Miranda/Talia/Marion to talking about how great Anne was and how Selina is Bruce's perfect "soul mate" or how "organic" their courtship was (HUH??). Sorry, it just really irks me, because there are threads for that.

But since it was brought up, this movie did nothing to change my opinion that Batman/Bruce doesn't, and shouldn't, have a "soul mate". Bruce and Selina were not that deep and there wasn't much material to gauge from.

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Old 12-28-2012, 04:05 PM   #865
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This is the type of ending I wanted. IMO, in the comics Bruce shouldn't end up with Selina or Talia and TDKR only strengthened my belief. I agree with pretty much everything you and Nev have said. Ultimately, cramming Selina and Talia in one movie weakened both. I get that a lot of people loved Bruce and Selina's interactions, but I find their relationship shallow and overrated in the film, even though Bale and Hathaway have chemistry. And I don't need to go into how disappointing Bruce/Miranda was. It would've been better and less cliche to have Bruce ride off alone into the sunset, cause you don't need a spouse to be happy.

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Old 12-28-2012, 06:31 PM   #866
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

While I can see Selina representing a "new lease on life", all this "She's his soulmate!" stuff is a bit much IMO, since for me no romance in this trilogy was done well enough for me to think Bruce had a soulmate.

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Old 12-28-2012, 06:42 PM   #867
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While I can see Selina representing a "new lease on life", all this "She's his soulmate!" stuff is a bit much IMO, since for me no romance in this trilogy was done well enough for me to think Bruce had a soulmate.
If anything, his soulmate was the Joker. He "completed him"


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Old 12-28-2012, 06:53 PM   #868
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If anything, his soulmate was the Joker. He "completed him"

Lol, as funny as that is, he DOES have a more meaningful relationship with Joker than he does Rachel/Miranda/Selina. Bale's interaction with his villains and father figure's is better than the ones he had with his love interests. I'd say Gordon, Alfred, Joker, Blake, etc. are much better candadate's for Bruce's "Soulmate" than Selina is, hahahaha.

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Old 12-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #869
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Bruce/Gordon... I can go with that.

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Old 12-28-2012, 07:22 PM   #870
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As much as I enjoyed and loved Bruce/Selina, Batman and Gordon is still my favorite partnership in the entire trilogy (with Bruce/Alfred coming in 2nd).

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Old 12-28-2012, 10:45 PM   #871
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

Same here, I wish Batman's relatioship with Gordon was better portrayed in this movie, or at least more of it. Much more.

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Old 12-28-2012, 11:09 PM   #872
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Given that some have stated on how they wish that Nolan had included Talia's character much earlier in the series; in particular, within BB instead, how would you guys have reworked BB if Talia was in it; especially if you were allowed to get rid of Rachel's character altogether (let's just say that Harvey had a different character for a love interest in TDK)

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Old 12-29-2012, 12:03 AM   #873
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

I just realized...regarding the "Shawshank" ending, it would have to be Bruce meeting up with Lucius rather than Alfred if you wanted to do that ending properly.


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Old 12-29-2012, 01:34 AM   #874
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It always irritates me when this thread goes from discussing Miranda/Talia/Marion to talking about how great Anne was and how Selina is Bruce's perfect "soul mate" or how "organic" their courtship was (HUH??). Sorry, it just really irks me, because there are threads for that.

But since it was brought up, this movie did nothing to change my opinion that Batman/Bruce doesn't, and shouldn't, have a "soul mate". Bruce and Selina were not that deep and there wasn't much material to gauge from.
The problem is , Miranda/Talia didn't have much to do and didn't have much of a presence in TDKR. So its a bit challenging to fully engage, argue, and discuss a character who was a cypher imo. The stronger female character was Hathaway , and fair or not , most people , non fans included ,talk about her and not Marion.

That fault lies with the Nolan's , and not Cotillard imo , but again fair or not, the woman fans and non fans cared about was Selina. I think the whole "soul mate " thing is going a bit far, but Bale did certainly have much more chemistry with Hathaway than with Cotillard.

Hathaway did give a good performance , and Cotillard did good with what little she had. Had she been given a juicer role like Mal in Inception , she wouldn't have had the thunder taken from her. Then again, Talia imo has always been a pretty one note character . Catwoman is the better role.

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Old 12-29-2012, 07:17 AM   #875
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Default Re: Marion Cotillard as Miranda Tate VIII (Team Frenchie Edition)

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Same here, I wish Batman's relatioship with Gordon was better portrayed in this movie, or at least more of it. Much more.
It would have helped if Gordon didn't spend half the movie laid out in a hospital bed.

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The problem is , Miranda/Talia didn't have much to do and didn't have much of a presence in TDKR. So its a bit challenging to fully engage, argue, and discuss a character who was a cypher imo. The stronger female character was Hathaway , and fair or not , most people , non fans included ,talk about her and not Marion.

That fault lies with the Nolan's , and not Cotillard imo , but again fair or not, the woman fans and non fans cared about was Selina. I think the whole "soul mate " thing is going a bit far, but Bale did certainly have much more chemistry with Hathaway than with Cotillard.

Hathaway did give a good performance , and Cotillard did good with what little she had. Had she been given a juicer role like Mal in Inception , she wouldn't have had the thunder taken from her. Then again, Talia imo has always been a pretty one note character . Catwoman is the better role.
Exactly

Apart from her reveal scene Cottiard had no memorable scenes. Unless you count her death scene which is memorable for all the wrong reasons Whereas Hathaway's Selina had a memorable scene or moment in virtually every scene she appeared in.

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