The Amazing Spider-Man v.2 - Part 3

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by Themanofbat

I was just about to bring this up... but it could lead to MJ thinking that it isn't "Peter" in his body, and possibly talk to someone who might be able to heklp out... like Dr. Strange...

Yeah, I'm kind of thinking things could be heading that way with MJ down the road but not right away. Rather, it could be that MJ starts to notice little things here and there that just seem really off, like she was starting to at the beginning of ASM #700. And she could say that at first she thought it was initially Peter eagerness of wanting them to get back together or that he's been under a lot of pressure what with Silver Sable's death and "Doc Ock" escaping. But now something just "doesn't feel right with him." Then, depending upon what happens during the Massacre story, MJ may start to think "Okay, something is seriously wrong with Peter, and I got to find out what it is." And of course, she doesn't let "Peter" know any of this.

Originally Posted by runawayboulder

Great point. Carlie is going to be a key factor in all this. After a while people are undoubtedly going to notice a change in Peter/Spidey but since all of Peter's personal memories are there it's going to be ignored by most.

Carlie is going to be majorly unnerved by this and will naturally confide in MJ and they (or just MJ) will have to get some help. Strange is possible but I think that Harry could fit in well here. He's a strong candidate because he's know Peter just as long as anyone else and he's been gone a while so this could serve as a way to get him back in the supporting cast.

Actually, I think it could happen this way--Carlie deduces that "Peter" is really Doc Ock and confronts him, pointing out not only what "Doc Ock" said to her but the way "Peter" has acted, how he has the same mannerisms and phrases that Doc Ock did. But the twist would be this--Doc Ock then tells her:

"Well, if what you say is true, how exactly are you going to prove it? You have no evidence, no proof of any kind--only suspicion and conjecture. It's your word against mine. Who would believe you, considering how your own father turned out to be a criminal, that you already were accused of tampering with evidence, and have covered up the Wraith. And if you're thinking you just tell Ms. Watson, consider this--you're my ex-girlfriend who feels betrayed after I lied to you about my being Spider-Man. You'd do anything to get revenge, including sabotaging my relationship with Mary Jane and turning her against me. She'd see you as being nothing more than a spiteful, jealous woman trying desperately to steal the man she loves away from her. But let's say by some miracle people do believe you, consider this--the world needs Spider-Man. You tell them that he's really dead and that the man who supposedly killed him is running around as him, you're taking away from them their hero. You will then embolden all of Spider-Man's enemies and every too-bit hoodlum in the city, resulting in a crime wave like you have never seen. Do you really want that on your conscience, Ms. Cooper? Do really want to proclaim the so-called 'truth' and take away the hope of the people and deny a man who has seen the error of his ways his one last chance at salvation?"

[The Infernal]

Nice blog, stillanerd. It was an interesting read. It might be worth have another read over once Superior #1 is out (or maybe even a few issues in).

Though I'm not sure about Ock being a better nemesis for Spidey. Maybe it's because Goblin is so ingrained into my mind as his nemesis or that I don't think the hero's nemesis has to be a dark mirror of them. Just my opinion.

Also, about the whole body swap shtick. It has been played out many times in Avengers (and other comics), but I'm just wondering how often have the characters involved have also similarly chose not to approach their friends and allies thinking "they won't believe me"? I kinda feel as much of a contrivance as it is, have the audience not essentially just gone with it every time as well?

Originally Posted by runawayboulder

Supposedly Ultimate Peter is coming back.

I doubt it. Though it would be funny if he came back and SHIELD put him in a sort of witness protection scheme and gave him the new identity of Ben Reilly. lol

[Thwip!]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

That's fine with some villains... But scorpion is suppose to be slightly above spidey on the strength and durability chart..... Could he knock chemeleons jaw off? Sure.... But scorpion, lizard or rhinos ? Ehhhhhhh

I always thought that Spidey was more durable if they went head to head without scorpions armour.

Ock just hit the bit that was exposed of Mac so it hit harder. Spidey, knowing the damage he could really do, would've held back just enough to incapacitate Mac

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by The Infernal

Nice blog, stillanerd. It was an interesting read. It might be worth have another read over once Superior #1 is out (or maybe even a few issues in).

Thanks. And yes, it's definitely going to be interesting to compare things once Superior Spider-Man #1 does come out.

Though I'm not sure about Ock being a better nemesis for Spidey. Maybe it's because Goblin is so ingrained into my mind as his nemesis or that I don't think the hero's nemesis has to be a dark mirror of them. Just my opinion.

Oh, sure, the Green Goblin has a lot more notoriety, I think, as a Spider-Man villain, especially over the last two decades or so (and of course, being the one who killed Gwen Stacy did catapult him to the top). But I think also Marvel had to change A LOT of Norman Osborn's characterization in the process. After all, the Green Goblin in the Stan Lee does NOT seem like the type of guy who would successfully come up with schemes in the shadows, much less be able to control various super-villains like he did in Thunderbolts and Dark Reign. And I do think one of the reasons why Doc Ock works better is, aside from having a great visual look like Spider-Man does, he is a dark mirror of Spidey in every sense of the word. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best villains are dark reflections of the hero. After all, look at Batman's rogues gallery--they're all dark reflections of him.

Also, about the whole body swap shtick. It has been played out many times in Avengers (and other comics), but I'm just wondering how often have the characters involved have also similarly chose not to approach their friends and allies thinking "they won't believe me"? I kinda feel as much of a contrivance as it is, have the audience not essentially just gone with it every time as well?

Yeah, it's understandable that, when it comes to a body swap story, that "they won't believe me" angle is plausible if the story took place in which fantastic and magical stuff doesn't happen on a regular basis, such as Freaky Friday or even Face/Off to some extent. But in the Marvel Universe, where you've got aliens, gods, monsters, demons, extra-dimensional beings, mutants, mad scientists, and super-powered characters running around, how could the possibility of a body swap NOT be considered by the Avengers if Spidey told them?

[JewishHobbit]

So... do you think Dan's happy people are moving on from OMD

[The Infernal]

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Oh, sure, the Green Goblin has a lot more notoriety, I think, as a Spider-Man villain, especially over the last two decades or so (and of course, being the one who killed Gwen Stacy did catapult him to the top). But I think also Marvel had to change A LOT of Norman Osborn's characterization in the process. After all, the Green Goblin in the Stan Lee does NOT seem like the type of guy who would successfully come up with schemes in the shadows, much less be able to control various super-villains like he did in Thunderbolts and Dark Reign. And I do think one of the reasons why Doc Ock works better is, aside from having a great visual look like Spider-Man does, he is a dark mirror of Spidey in every sense of the word. In fact, in my personal opinion, the best villains are dark reflections of the hero. After all, look at Batman's rogues gallery--they're all dark reflections of him.

I think it might also be because I'm not so steeped in the history or rather that I didn't read a lot of it first time round. For me it's always been set that way. I was surprised to learn that his resurrection was as late as the clone saga (I honestly thought it had been established for much longer).

Originally Posted by stillanerd

Yeah, it's understandable that, when it comes to a body swap story, that "they won't believe me" angle is plausible if the story took place in which fantastic and magical stuff doesn't happen on a regular basis, such as Freaky Friday or even Face/Off to some extent. But in the Marvel Universe, where you've got aliens, gods, monsters, demons, extra-dimensional beings, mutants, mad scientists, and super-powered characters running around, how could the possibility of a body swap NOT be considered by the Avengers if Spidey told them?

True. I was thinking more or less the same thing, but I was asking myself "are we not supposed to pretend that such things happen on a daily basis sometimes, for the sake of the story?". I mean I can't help but think that a lot of stories told in Marvel comics would make more sense in a less crowded world where people aren't raised from the dead almost every month (slight exaggeration, I expect).

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

So... do you think Dan's happy people are moving on from OMD

Oh sure. I expect he wanted fans to swap whoever it was picture out from the front of the dartboard to his picture.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

So... do you think Dan's happy people are moving on from OMD

Well, the way I look at (and I think I mentioned this awhile ago) but if the folks at Marvel are to be taken at their word, that Doc Ock being the new Spider-Man will be permanent and that Peter's story is done, then aren't they also admitting that Joe Quesada's final "Genie" that he wanted to get "back into the bottle" didn't work? Because the whole idea behind One More Day, according to Quesada, was to get Peter back to having a soap opera style love life that was "the crucial element" to his character his marriage supposedly took him away from. Can't exactly have that now that Peter is supposedly dead, can we?

Originally Posted by The Infernal

I think it might also be because I'm not so steeped in the history or rather that I didn't read a lot of it first time round. For me it's always been set that way. I was surprised to learn that his resurrection was as late as the clone saga (I honestly thought it had been established for much longer).

Which is understandable. After all, the Clone Saga is about, what, almost 20 years old now? That's still a pretty long time.

True. I was thinking more or less the same thing, but I was asking myself "are we not supposed to pretend that such things happen on a daily basis sometimes, for the sake of the story?". I mean I can't help but think that a lot of stories told in Marvel comics would make more sense in a less crowded world where people aren't raised from the dead almost every month (slight exaggeration, I expect).

Same here. After all, in my opinion, the X-Men actually works better as a concept the father removed they are from the greater Marvel Universe, and, as the X-Men films showed, their overall themes really stand out when they are in a universe of their own. But still, I do understand that we readers have to just "go with it" from time to time.

[stillanerd]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

Thanks.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by spideyboy_1111

And some fans seem to be grateful for whatever they get...

The minority seem to be the only ones wanting "all new all different"

That doesn't respond to what I said at all.

[The Infernal]

I was just thinking to myself "who else would make a good nemesis in my mind for Spider-man other than Goblin?". I couldn't think of anyone to begin with, but then Kingpin sprung to mind. Even though he's less personal to Peter than either Ock or Goblin, his position as the Kingpin of crime stands against pretty much everything Spidey stands against. Plus for all of Ock's schemes it never really seemed like he could amass the power base that Kingpin seemed to have in his prime.

But again, this is probably due more to the 90's cartoon and such that depicted the classic version of the Kingpin. I gather that Spider-man arguably lost ownership of him as one of his rogues gallery to Daredevil and that he doesn't have quite the same grip on power as he used to (I don't really follow, last I knew the Hood was hoping to fill his spot).

[CConn]

Originally Posted by the_ultimate_evil

You may think I'm trying to be funny or just *****ing but 100% honestly the issue left and extremely sour taste in my mouth and I can't say I enjoyed any part of it.


Look I'm not throwing temper tantrums or declaring a curse upon dan slotts house like some of the morons out there on the web. Maybe I did sound a bit rash in my original post but I had literally finished the issue and the same tablet I'm posting on. So maybe it wasn't as thought out as my usual posts.

It's just how the conclusion of the story and how they are treating the character played out, does not sit well with me, and with the constant push of he's better he's better he's better its really just put me off giving the superior spider-man comic a try.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that opinion. I find it extremely comprehend able, if I don't wholeheartedly agree.

I was more referencing your absolutist and simplistic reasoning on the quality of Marvel comics. That phrase "I used to be a Marvel/DC Zombie, now none of their books interest me, so they must all suck!!!!" Is thrown around a lot, and I find it generally amusing that the speakers don't realize the obvious idiosyncrasy of the two beliefs. You're going from an extremely absolutist and simplistic opinion "I don't have any interest in any comic that isn't Marvel" to another equally absolutist and simplistic "I don't have any interest in any Marvel comics."

So, while your opinion may have changed throughout the years, there was actual no maturiation of your actual logic and reasoning - you're still set on the wholly childish concept of absolutes; black and whites, good and bads, and nothing in between. Whereas, the matured, adult consciousness should be able to differentiate thousands of shades of grey in between those two absolutes. Which, obviously, yours still does not.

[spideyboy_1111]

There's nothing wrong with people wanting the same character in the same continuity and saying it sucks that its not either though

[CConn]

That's what I said.

[spideyboy_1111]

No youre mad at people for saying something they don't read sucks and judging it... When to them its the situation and status quo they're actually saying sucks.

[Baramos]

Originally Posted by Thwip!

You mean like here?

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Man, that is EXACTLY what I meant (7:38). I'm glad I'm not the only person who ever thought of that. Glad to see they already realized what a great idea it was at some point.

The Spider-Man with six arms is also a good idea.

[the_ultimate_evil]

Originally Posted by CConn

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that opinion. I find it extremely comprehend able, if I don't wholeheartedly agree.

I was more referencing your absolutist and simplistic reasoning on the quality of Marvel comics. That phrase "I used to be a Marvel/DC Zombie, now none of their books interest me, so they must all suck!!!!" Is thrown around a lot, and I find it generally amusing that the speakers don't realize the obvious idiosyncrasy of the two beliefs. You're going from an extremely absolutist and simplistic opinion "I don't have any interest in any comic that isn't Marvel" to another equally absolutist and simplistic "I don't have any interest in any Marvel comics."

So, while your opinion may have changed throughout the years, there was actual no maturiation of your actual logic and reasoning - you're still set on the wholly childish concept of absolutes; black and whites, good and bads, and nothing in between. Whereas, the matured, adult consciousness should be able to differentiate thousands of shades of grey in between those two absolutes. Which, obviously, yours still does not.

I can see where your point and I agree in my original post I didn't put my opinion foreword in a mature way

My statement has not been an instant one, it's true before the Bruce time toons I never touched dc outside of batman. But I can constantly remember marvel being my only comic book experiences outside of a few 2000ad story's

If I can explain myself better I did for years maintain a balance between the 2 company's still picking up the likes of x-men, avengers, hulk, spider-man captain America. It's just over the past number of years with the poor story lines, constant bad events, cancellations I've noticed my marvel comics number becoming lower and lower till its got down to 2 possibly 3 books

I'm not saying its a pure black and white like my original post made out, and that I hold my hands up for the poor effort in putting my opinion across.

What I'm trying to say is for the books I have read and the characters I enjoy marvel seems to have been on a constant motion to drive them into the ground.

Spider-man was the last marvel book I would have considered a constant purchase and now after reading some more reviews, rereading the issue, I still can say I most likely wont pick up superior, I just don't like how the concept was executed, or the push behind it. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am, and if so ill hold my hands up and say so.

[JewishHobbit]

Originally Posted by the_ultimate_evil

Spider-man was the last marvel book I would have considered a constant purchase and now after reading some more reviews, rereading the issue, I still can say I most likely wont pick up superior, I just don't like how the concept was executed, or the push behind it. Maybe I'm wrong and I hope I am, and if so ill hold my hands up and say so.

I've not read the comics so I won't comment on the quality of the writing or execution, but I will say that I pretty much loath the promotion/push of the story and Superior Spider-Man. I'm all for promoting a story but it's almost like the people at Marvel went about it in the most hateful way possible.

First, they played up this story as the FINAL SPIDER-MAN STORY EVER!!! And on multiple occasions it was almost like they were belittling fans who didn't believe them that this was the FINAL SPIDER-MAN STORY EVER!!! Oh, and it's apparently supposed to be some big deal that this is the FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!!! like it's the first time they've ever canceled a long-running title... or even THIS long running title. And then dealing with Superioer Spider-Man, they talk as if this is the new status quo FOREVER!!!! and that the people who don't believe that they can stick to a status quo FOREVER!!!! (or even for one year) are stupid because this is FOREVER!!!! because 700 was the FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!!! and that obviously means something. And if for some reason you aren't buying that this FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!! is leading to the new status quo FOREVER!!!! then you're just an internet fanboy and they role their eyes at you.


You know, if you would have just promoted it as an interested twist on the Spidey mythos and we'll see where it goes... it might have actually been met with a better reception. It's like they want people to embrace this story as a FOREVER!!!! story and then get mad when people are either A) not calling it a FOREVER!!!! story or B) reacting as if this were a FOREVER!!!! story.

Just tell a good freaking story and leave the gimmicks and over the top promotions at home. Good lord!


Oh, and if you're going to drop fake clues and spoilers... make sure that the fake spoilers aren't actually cooler than the story you present. My biggest disappointment is that Superior Spider-Man is Doc Ock instead of Spider-Man 2099. Spidey 2099 is probably on my top 30 list of favorite characters. Ock would likely fall somewhere closer to 300... maybe.

Also, allow fans' minds to run with the story, getting their hopes up. I did actually have a hope that this story might lead to some sort of OMD reversal, even if it's just minor, and that had me somewhat curious about this direction. Dan coming in here and rulling that out (rather rudely as we saw) removed any interest I had in that being a potential plot, so that's not something I can look forward to. So now, we have a plot that I'm disappointed in the reveal and know 100% that what I'd like to see happen will not. So why would I even BOTHER picking up Superior Spider-Man?


So yeah, I feel like the promotion to this story was just all kinds of fail. Which, being that this is Spider-Man, and there's a loud outcry about it, Superior Spider-Man will be a top seller for the next few years and Marvel will treat those who didn't like the direction as morons... because they're classy like that.

[Upset Spideyfan]

Its nice to know that my screen name is still relevant so many years later.

[Artistsean]

I don't understand why people feel like this is ruining Spider-Man. I personally like it, its a fun character study with lots of layers and plot ideas and places to go with it.
Its also just like any other comic story, it just happens to be in Marvel's big Marvel Now push, and I guess with DC's New 52 shake ups people are worried this is a permanent change but its not. Dan Slott even said this idea came about before Spider-Man 600 years ago before Marvel Now was planned. This is just the same as Captain America's death/lost in time idea or Blackest Night at DC. Its a a fun story idea.
I can also understand that some are worried how Superior-Spider-Man will effect Peter's life now that Peter is gone, but I think Slott's version in 700 and in the new Superior Spider-Man is what we will get: Superior Spider-Man trying his best at being Spider-Man and being Peter. Rather than Avenging where he seemed a little sinister in his motives. And I am sure MJ will not sleep with Superior Spider-Man and Carlie will have something to do wit it. So there is no worries about any creepiness there. And I am sure characters like Daredevil, Wolverine, or Dr. Strange will figure it out.
Plus people have pointed out plot ideas where this could go. The golden octo bot is still out there. they are emphasizing the single molecule of a being's "soul". Peter's personality is still in there. Lots of fun places it could go. I think years from now people will have Peter back and this will be an interesting story that happened to him.

[WeeZiTe]

Originally Posted by Artistsean

I don't understand why people feel like this is ruining Spider-Man.

Because comic fans are overdramatic. This is all part of a story and Peter will be back.

[The Infernal]

I agree Artistsean, there are some interesting possibilities with this angle and the change is of course never permanent, but there are some things about the story I'm sceptical about.

Here's a list of what I'm not to keen on (off the top of my head).

- new Spider-man is essentially just the old, but with a different personality (as far as we can tell he's going to keep the same supporting cast and just pretend to be Peter to everyone. Makes you wonder why they bothered with a new Spider-man at all).

- they seem to be teasing some nasty implications due to said body swap (telling us Spidey & MJ 'get back together')

- saying this is the new 'status quo' for the foreseeable future (giving the impression this could be more than just one year)

- We already have several 'darker' Spider-men about (frankly we have too many 'spider-men' in general)


Though I should probably say that I don't actually expect anything to happen with MJ or anyone else that believes Ock is really Peter. I think Marvel is just taking the mickey there (which is a bit annoying). Mind you, I can't deny there's a little voice in my head asking "what if they are that stupid?". Wacker's comments on the matter are less than encouraging on that front to be honest.

[Eros]

Originally Posted by Artistsean

I don't understand why people feel like this is ruining Spider-Man. I personally like it, its a fun character study with lots of layers and plot ideas and places to go with it.
Its also just like any other comic story, it just happens to be in Marvel's big Marvel Now push, and I guess with DC's New 52 shake ups people are worried this is a permanent change but its not. Dan Slott even said this idea came about before Spider-Man 600 years ago before Marvel Now was planned. This is just the same as Captain America's death/lost in time idea or Blackest Night at DC. Its a a fun story idea.
I can also understand that some are worried how Superior-Spider-Man will effect Peter's life now that Peter is gone, but I think Slott's version in 700 and in the new Superior Spider-Man is what we will get: Superior Spider-Man trying his best at being Spider-Man and being Peter. Rather than Avenging where he seemed a little sinister in his motives. And I am sure MJ will not sleep with Superior Spider-Man and Carlie will have something to do wit it. So there is no worries about any creepiness there. And I am sure characters like Daredevil, Wolverine, or Dr. Strange will figure it out.
Plus people have pointed out plot ideas where this could go. The golden octo bot is still out there. they are emphasizing the single molecule of a being's "soul". Peter's personality is still in there. Lots of fun places it could go. I think years from now people will have Peter back and this will be an interesting story that happened to him.

HUH? Peters dead, Dock ock is using his body and living peters life, its a perversion of the character, it s that elephant in the room. people who read a comic with spider-man will just get a creepy disgusted vibe.

[wobbly]

If they do have 'spock' bed MJ then I don't care what Whacker or anyone else says, it is rape by deception. That's not on the readers, that's all on the writers if they do take this down that road.

Hell, at least Gwen Stacey knew she was screwing Norman Osborn, as utterly loathsome a ret-con that idea was.

[spideyboy_1111]

Originally Posted by JewishHobbit

I've not read the comics so I won't comment on the quality of the writing or execution, but I will say that I pretty much loath the promotion/push of the story and Superior Spider-Man. I'm all for promoting a story but it's almost like the people at Marvel went about it in the most hateful way possible.

First, they played up this story as the FINAL SPIDER-MAN STORY EVER!!! And on multiple occasions it was almost like they were belittling fans who didn't believe them that this was the FINAL SPIDER-MAN STORY EVER!!! Oh, and it's apparently supposed to be some big deal that this is the FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!!! like it's the first time they've ever canceled a long-running title... or even THIS long running title. And then dealing with Superioer Spider-Man, they talk as if this is the new status quo FOREVER!!!! and that the people who don't believe that they can stick to a status quo FOREVER!!!! (or even for one year) are stupid because this is FOREVER!!!! because 700 was the FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!!! and that obviously means something. And if for some reason you aren't buying that this FINAL ISSUE OF AMAZING SPIDER-MAN EVER!!! is leading to the new status quo FOREVER!!!! then you're just an internet fanboy and they role their eyes at you.


You know, if you would have just promoted it as an interested twist on the Spidey mythos and we'll see where it goes... it might have actually been met with a better reception. It's like they want people to embrace this story as a FOREVER!!!! story and then get mad when people are either A) not calling it a FOREVER!!!! story or B) reacting as if this were a FOREVER!!!! story.

Just tell a good freaking story and leave the gimmicks and over the top promotions at home. Good lord!


Oh, and if you're going to drop fake clues and spoilers... make sure that the fake spoilers aren't actually cooler than the story you present. My biggest disappointment is that Superior Spider-Man is Doc Ock instead of Spider-Man 2099. Spidey 2099 is probably on my top 30 list of favorite characters. Ock would likely fall somewhere closer to 300... maybe.

Also, allow fans' minds to run with the story, getting their hopes up. I did actually have a hope that this story might lead to some sort of OMD reversal, even if it's just minor, and that had me somewhat curious about this direction. Dan coming in here and rulling that out (rather rudely as we saw) removed any interest I had in that being a potential plot, so that's not something I can look forward to. So now, we have a plot that I'm disappointed in the reveal and know 100% that what I'd like to see happen will not. So why would I even BOTHER picking up Superior Spider-Man?


So yeah, I feel like the promotion to this story was just all kinds of fail. Which, being that this is Spider-Man, and there's a loud outcry about it, Superior Spider-Man will be a top seller for the next few years and Marvel will treat those who didn't like the direction as morons... because they're classy like that.

Yeah... Props to you man you totally just hit the nail on the head imo.

[roach]

Seems to me Spider-man fans want to read Peter as Spider-man...so why continue to put people who arent Peter in the costume?