Plot ideas based on SPOILERS (general discussion)

[elizah72]

btw, if you have trouble reading those images of the panels on the tumblr page the trick seems to be to hover over the image, right click and open in a new tab to get to see full size. pain in the neck but that page had the most panels all together in order.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

So, Frost Giants are not too bright. Laufey was the smartest of the bunch and he still wound up outsmarted by Loki. Which is one of the reasons why I think Loki may turn out to be only being half Frost Giant, unless it's just the benefit of an Asgardian education

Meh. Someone has to be the smartest of the Frost Giants. Why not Loki?

Originally Posted by elizah72

Although, didnt seem to benefit Thor nearly as much. In the video game walkthrough I watched at one point Loki says to Thor "We'll turn you into a thinker yet." rofl @ sassy Loki.

Meh. Someone has to be the smartest of the Asgardians. Why does it have to be Thor?

Seriously, his intelligence stat is 2/7, whereas Loki's is 5/7. (Odin's, for reference, is 7/7).

So when Loki asks, "Are you ever going to not fall for that?", the answer probably is "No."

But that's okay. We love Thor anyway.

Originally Posted by elizah72

And still I would question why Odin would think Loki would even want to rule the FG's, even being one of them, especially after father has regaled him since childhood of what a lovely bunch they are.

Empires tended to send their promising up-and-comers to assignments away from the home city/land.

Originally Posted by elizah72

To get back to Thor 2,

Oh yeah. . .they are working on another Thor movie, aren't they?

Originally Posted by elizah72

there was quite a bit of destruction on Jotunheim when Thor slammed his hammer down early in Thor 1,

And I *dearly* hope Thor and friends create at *least* as much destruction in the next film!! All over the Nine Realms! Boom!!

Originally Posted by elizah72

creating that big crack and chasm that FG's fell into, but then when Loki visited later it looked like that may have been repaired (??)... and then the destruction at the end of the movie. I wonder if the Frost Giants may have enough ability, working together especially, to repair the ice on their planet, and so it will appear pretty much in tact in Thor 2 for that reason.

Ha! I hadn't noticed that before. Good catch!

Maybe the Asgardians should contract them to fix their bridge

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by elizah72

btw, if you have trouble reading those images of the panels on the tumblr page the trick seems to be to hover over the image, right click and open in a new tab to get to see full size. pain in the neck but that page had the most panels all together in order.

The other thing you can do is left-click and hold, then drag the image up to the URL line of your browser. (On mine, the icon changes from a "not allowed" circle-with-slash symbol back to an arrow when you have it in the right place). Let it go, and it reloads the JPEG directly. Then you have the option to click and zoom on it. You then hit the back button to go to the tumblr site again.

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

could be. Well, the one time ( i believe) Thanos and Odin have fought, technically neither won. This is essentially how the fight went


Basically, Odin was in a fighting mood. No reason with him. So Thanos took the silver surfer by his side and they took on thanos. Odin Blasts thanos, as you see, Thanos tanks it. Thanos then blasts Odin along with Surfer, Odin takes it. Odin then blasts Thanos, as he stumbles back a bit. Meanwhile the silver surfer attacks from above! With powerful blasts, it merely gets odin's attention, and pisses him off, he then blasts the surfer, one shotting him. Now its odin and thanos, thanos runs in, and punches him with an amped punch, staggering Odin a bit, who then recovers and counters with a smack to thanos, staggering him a bit more. They talk, putting each other down, in a way, more so thanos, odin sort of is admired by his effort. Then thanos talks and blasts odin, getting him to step back at bit and stagger odin, as he blocks his face (merely stagger, Odin's attacks seem to be a bit more powerful than thanos'. Odin then makes a bunch of rocks and elements fall on thanos, as he creates a shield, protecting himself from it. Thanos then creates a field of pure energy, trapping odin inside. Odin breaks free after a short amount of time. Odin then summons gungnir, and blasts thanos. Sending him FLYING through asgard and into buildings. Odin goes to where thanos landed, and says, all of Odin's enemys fall, as Thanos gets up super quickly emerging from rubble, tells odin that he boasts prematurely. Odin then blasts him again with gungnir, a concentrated blast, except, instead of sending thanos flying, thanos puts his hand up, and slowly wades through the concentrated blast, walks through it, with difficulty, and walks up, and grabs the spear. an explosion happens, and they both go flying up. Thanos lands first, then odin. Thanos is down. Odin lands near him, and says that Thanos was one of the toughest foes he faced in eons, and asked him if he yields. Then Thanos slowly gets up, it takes him 4 panels to get up, and Thanos says no. Odin is shocked. Thanos seemed to have recovered, and chargese up his hands, and warlock and them intervene and explain to odin the situation, and that they needed his help.

For this fight, even though odin couldn't put him down, it was a bit clear who was superior. Thanos' INSANE duribility kept him in the fight. Thanos couldn't really hurt odin, and even though odin was hurting thanos, it took him some effort, and a bit of time. It's why he summoned gungnir, then he was getting the better of thanos. and was hurting him.

Thanos, since then, has been upgraded, and has become a bit more powerful.

However, not enough to put down odin. Thanos is more durable, and seemingly more powerful. I'd say, the fight would go similar now to how it went then. Except Thanos will last a little bit longer, and he will be able to stagger odin, hurting him a bit. But Odin would still be superior, ultimately, Odin is more powerful, thanos has power to disturb him, but the duribility to go toe to toe with him for a bit. So Odin wins.

Odin couldn't take Thanos on if Thanos had the IG. You left out the main part of that battle in the panels above: namely, that Thanos had come to Odin seeking his help --- to fight Thor. Who not only was gripped with Warrior's Madness, but also had the Power Gem. If it took the combined might of Thanos, Odin, Adam Warlock, and Silver Surfer just to take down Thor with just one Infinity Gem, how the hell could Odin....or Surfer, or Warlock, or Thor, or anyone....stand against someone with all six Gems?

Originally Posted by elizah72

Now we talk about how different MCU Loki is from Comics Loki but he's not the only one! Odin is kind of a villain in his own right in the comics at times from what I've seen.

Other than Marvel/Branagh/the writers wanting to make him a much more sympathetic father figure, for the "family drama" they were making here, why do you suppose that is that he's been changed so much?

Current MCU Odin wants the realms to be at peace, he wouldnt go out and fight because he's in a fighting mood and basically banishes Thor for doing just that. If Odin was much more warlike like his comics counterpart in his youth, as Thor was, seeking out "glorious battles", then why the change of heart by the time he found Loki as a baby? It seems like comic book Odin would have just slain the child and been done with it. I know in the comics he takes him in as a way of getting his father's ghost to stop haunting him (basically) by taking in a child of his enemy, but I don't think they'll go in that direction with this, could be wrong but I think we'll get a fresh take.

Odin told Loki the reason why he had spared his life: because he wanted him to one day grow up to be the ambassador of peace between the two nations. He kind of lost sight of that along the way --- just one eye and all --- and Loki was left to be "just another relic in Odin's treasury."

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I don't think Odin is necessarily THAT different from comics, as he DID banish Thor, he DID get angry. I just think the comic version of Odin is in MCU Odin's past. I take it as MCU Odin, in terms of the span of his life, is very, very old. Maybe to the point where he can't so much fight in as much battles as he used to. As he is older, and seeks to avoid conflict. Given the weapons vault, and as Loki said Odin is the "most powerful being in the 9 realms", I think Odin was once this all mighty powerful warrior, like in the comics, he has just simply grown out of that in the MCU, as he is aging. That's what I think. I don't think there is THAT much of a difference.

Shabingo. I think Anthony Hopkins' Odin is every bit as unforgiving and wrathful as comic-book Odin, but he at least tries to keep peace, and does not suffer lightly those who break the peace...even his own son.

Originally Posted by elizah72

Thor in Avengers says the Chitauri are not from any world known and they dont know about Thanos at all it seems based on him asking Loki "who controls the would be king?" So that seems like that more evidence that Thanos is in another dimension or separate part the universe far from the 9 realms and Odin's domain.

Not necessarily. Loki never responds when Thor asks him directly who gave him this information, so we won't know if Thor/Asgard were pre-aware of Thanos' existence until later movies, hopefully including this one. I still hold the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury as film canon, so I personally believe Odin and Loki and Thor and the rest of Asgard know full well who Thanos is.

It seems like Odin should be aware of Thanos, as big a threat as he is perceived to be, and would have told Thor about him, if Thanos was known within the 9 realms. And if it was easy for Thanos to travel and send his army to Earth/the 9 realms, (at this point in the story) it seems like he would have done so without some mischievous disgruntled Asgardian/miniature frost giant's help.

Only if Thanos had any desire/need to go to Earth. He didn't, until Loki revealed to him that the Tesseract was there, in SHIELD custody.

Also, my suspicion is that Odin should have picked up on Loki being alive and maybe even where he might be if he were in the 9 realms during that time. Again because he'd be in Odin's domain, Odin would seem likely to pick up on it. But maybe he's not that powerful, or not in that way so I could be wrong on that.

Maybe not Odin; but you do bring up a good point: there's a strong likelihood that Heimdall, the all-seeing, should have been able to spot him. Then again, Loki proved in Thor 1 that he's particularly adept at shielding his movements from Heimdall, and he may be the only such person capable of doing that.

Originally Posted by elizah72

Nice. Yeah, stuff like that...

I don't know where this panel is from but...

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Now why is Daddy beating up on and verbally abusing Thor?

That's from 2011's Fear Itself miniseries. Which may wind up planting seeds in Thor: TDW and future Thor/Avenger films. What's happening there is that Odin's long-lost brother Skadi, God of Fear, has returned from ancient slumber on Earth and is about to set off Ragnarok. Odin says the only way to stop him is to destroy Midgard, and Skadi with it. Thor is horrified and intercedes on behalf of humanity, and Odin gets pissed and asks his son point blank: "Are you a man or a god? Choose." Thor chooses to be a man, and on the side of Midgard/humanity. We might see a scene similar to that coming to a theater near you this Thanksgiving.

[jaqua99]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Odin couldn't take Thanos on if Thanos had the IG. You left out the main part of that battle in the panels above: namely, that Thanos had come to Odin seeking his help --- to fight Thor. Who not only was gripped with Warrior's Madness, but also had the Power Gem. If it took the combined might of Thanos, Odin, Adam Warlock, and Silver Surfer just to take down Thor with just one Infinity Gem, how the hell could Odin....or Surfer, or Warlock, or Thor, or anyone....stand against someone with all six Gems?

I know, two things here. 1. Did I not mention the IG in my initial post? I think I may have forgot it, but i did go on to say (must have been in another post) that Odin wouldn't even be a threat to Thanos with the IG, and I mentioned how he defeated all the heroes, and basically made galactus and company flee, and defeating eternity. I am pretty sure I mentioned that somewhere lol.

And yes, Odin was in a fighting mood and Thanos and them sought him out, seeking help, but they fought. It still didn't change the fact that Thanos couldn't really hurt him. Though, after the Thanos imperitive, he seemed more powerful.

but ya, thanos with the IG > basically anymore short of the LT

Odin told Loki the reason why he had spared his life: because he wanted him to one day grow up to be the ambassador of peace between the two nations. He kind of lost sight of that along the way --- just one eye and all --- and Loki was left to be "just another relic in Odin's treasury."

Shabingo. I think Anthony Hopkins' Odin is every bit as unforgiving and wrathful as comic-book Odin, but he at least tries to keep peace, and does not suffer lightly those who break the peace...even his own son.

In a way. As for what Elizah said, he most certainly isn't a villain, tmore to him being an ass at times, yeah towards Loki. But again, comic loki has done too much to asgard, etc, that odin has had enough....if you will. However, sometimes I will agree with him. Again, reading up on them online is fine, but I can't stress enough, to get a full understanding of the characters in the comics, people should read the comics, that way they aren't getting a summary, and are actually getting character interaction the way they are written and such. Plus, it's simply more enjoyable.

Not necessarily. Loki never responds when Thor asks him directly who gave him this information, so we won't know if Thor/Asgard were pre-aware of Thanos' existence until later movies, hopefully including this one. I still hold the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury as film canon, so I personally believe Odin and Loki and Thor and the rest of Asgard know full well who Thanos is.

as do I. This is why I think Thor questioned him like that. Not a literal question, but a "who showed you this power?" in the sense that.."Loki, don't tell me you have built an alliance with HIM" I think Thanos was in mind when thor questioned loki, which is why he sounded a bit concerned.

Odin SURELY knows who he is at minimum. Especially if the IG in the treasure room holds true. Because they would have had to met, and if they did, it was to most likely stop a universal plan by Thanos. Which would more than likely be relatively known to a lot of people through out the universe.

Only if Thanos had any desire/need to go to Earth. He didn't, until Loki revealed to him that the Tesseract was there, in SHIELD custody.

Which personally, is why I think Thanos is going to be in 3. I will HATE if Thanos' climax is simply an attack on earth. Yes. He has a motive to attack earth, and the avengers. But what about what he was doing before that? What did he need the tesseract for? There has to be more to thanos' story in the MCU than him now "wanting to court death" by fighting the avengers. I think dropping whatever he was going to do, to simply attack earth would be HORRIBLE. I am DYING to see Thanos as a legimate universal threat in the MCU.

Maybe not Odin; but you do bring up a good point: there's a strong likelihood that Heimdall, the all-seeing, should have been able to spot him. Then again, Loki proved in Thor 1 that he's particularly adept at shielding his movements from Heimdall, and he may be the only such person capable of doing that.

Could be Loki's magic.








That's from 2011's Fear Itself miniseries. Which may wind up planting seeds in Thor: TDW and future Thor/Avenger films. What's happening there is that Odin's long-lost brother Skadi, God of Fear, has returned from ancient slumber on Earth and is about to set off Ragnarok. Odin says the only way to stop him is to destroy Midgard, and Skadi with it. Thor is horrified and intercedes on behalf of humanity, and Odin gets pissed and asks his son point blank: "Are you a man or a god? Choose." Thor chooses to be a man, and on the side of Midgard/humanity. We might see a scene similar to that coming to a theater near you this Thanksgiving. [/QUOTE]

[American Maid]

BTW, thanks, guys, for such rich posts!

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Odin couldn't take Thanos on if Thanos had the IG. You left out the main part of that battle in the panels above: namely, that Thanos had come to Odin seeking his help --- to fight Thor. Who not only was gripped with Warrior's Madness, but also had the Power Gem. If it took the combined might of Thanos, Odin, Adam Warlock, and Silver Surfer just to take down Thor with just one Infinity Gem, how the hell could Odin....or Surfer, or Warlock, or Thor, or anyone....stand against someone with all six Gems?

Holy cow!! That's insane. So do you think they might do something like that--give Thor the Power Gem, send him into Warrior's Madness, and have some other characters have to take him on? By-and-by, it appears we will have Thanos and Adam Warlock introduced to the MCU (though, alas, not the Silver Surfer).

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Not necessarily. Loki never responds when Thor asks him directly who gave him this information, so we won't know if Thor/Asgard were pre-aware of Thanos' existence until later movies, hopefully including this one. ...I personally believe Odin and Loki and Thor and the rest of Asgard know full well who Thanos is.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

as do I. This is why I think Thor questioned him like that. Not a literal question, but a "who showed you this power?" in the sense that.."Loki, don't tell me you have built an alliance with HIM" I think Thanos was in mind when thor questioned loki, which is why he sounded a bit concerned.

I agree with you guys. I think Thor has someone in mind and wants to see what Loki actually has been up to. Loki's lack of answer can't possibly be comforting in the least.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I still hold the Infinity Gauntlet in Odin's Treasury as film canon

Even though it's a right-handed glove?

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Only if Thanos had any desire/need to go to Earth. He didn't, until Loki revealed to him that the Tesseract was there, in SHIELD custody.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Which personally, is why I think Thanos is going to be in 3. I will HATE if Thanos' climax is simply an attack on earth. Yes. He has a motive to attack earth, and the avengers. But what about what he was doing before that? What did he need the tesseract for? There has to be more to thanos' story in the MCU than him now "wanting to court death" by fighting the avengers. I think dropping whatever he was going to do, to simply attack earth would be HORRIBLE. I am DYING to see Thanos as a legimate universal threat in the MCU.

You mean Thor3, I presume? Are you saying you've given up on Surtur??

I think there is a risk of what you're describing coming to pass (Thanos vs. the Avengers). In the first place, they're going to need someone to fight, if not in Avengers 2, then in Avengers 3 (hence my question of clarification). Second, films in general are vulnerable to the "Humans are Special" trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...mansAreSpecial). As I've mentioned in this space, I've been watching Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and that show is prone to setting up the fights (and the story) so that the humans (particularly Mr. Purple Pants and Mr. Smarty Pants) save the day, yet again. So this franchise in particular is vulnerable to it.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Maybe not Odin; but you do bring up a good point: there's a strong likelihood that Heimdall, the all-seeing, should have been able to spot him. Then again, Loki proved in Thor 1 that he's particularly adept at shielding his movements from Heimdall, and he may be the only such person capable of doing that.

True, although too much of that essentially makes Heimdall suffer from the Worf Effect trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../TheWorfEffect) (This is Thor's problem, I think, in A:EMH)

<The panel that Elizah posted>

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

That's from 2011's Fear Itself miniseries. Which may wind up planting seeds in Thor: TDW and future Thor/Avenger films. What's happening there is that Odin's long-lost brother Skadi, God of Fear, has returned from ancient slumber on Earth and is about to set off Ragnarok. Odin says the only way to stop him is to destroy Midgard, and Skadi with it. Thor is horrified and intercedes on behalf of humanity, and Odin gets pissed and asks his son point blank: "Are you a man or a god? Choose." Thor chooses to be a man, and on the side of Midgard/humanity. We might see a scene similar to that coming to a theater near you this Thanksgiving.

Thanks for the clarification!

Indeed, we may well see this element 10 months hence . Now, in Fear Itself, Thor ultimately is killed. Do you think they will do that here? I suppose that *is* "sacrificing everything to save us all." It's hard for me to believe they will. (not least because that figured into Thor1)

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I know, two things here. 1. Did I not mention the IG in my initial post? I think I may have forgot it, but i did go on to say (must have been in another post) that Odin wouldn't even be a threat to Thanos with the IG, and I mentioned how he defeated all the heroes, and basically made galactus and company flee, and defeating eternity. I am pretty sure I mentioned that somewhere lol.

It was in a follow-up post.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

reading up on them online is fine, but I can't stress enough, to get a full understanding of the characters in the comics, people should read the comics, that way they aren't getting a summary, and are actually getting character interaction the way they are written and such. Plus, it's simply more enjoyable.

Well, Thor's universe is rich enough now that it would take a long time to have enough cotext to understand everyone's posts if one were only to read the books. The summaries are very helpful for understanding who all these characters are that members are mentioning, and to know what the major events are in the characters' lives.

Summaries tend not to say much about characters' motivations. If they do, it is necessarily mediated through the interpretationn of the summary author, who usually is a fan. In addition, such posts are more in the spirit of technical writing, the purpose of which is to convey facts. The books, on the other hand, are in the spirit of art. Art is there to speak to greater truths about the human condition (which, btw, is why films are vulnerable to the Humans Are Special trope), to provide escape from mundane daily living, to spin and create another world (among other cultural purposes related to the human spirit). We can certainly complain about certain writers, but since people are willing to pay them money to write, most of them are probably better than the general population at creating this particular art. So the books are going to be better in this regard, on average.

For example, I was already well aware of all the major plot elements of the Simonson run that I have encountered so far in my reading. But none of the summaries conveyed that Lorelei seems to be as dumb as a box of rocks, for example. Nor have they created the Norse world in my head in the way that Simonson's narration and background details do (I didn't even realize he was a Norse mythology buff). That's art.

So I say reading summaries is plenty useful, but it's impoverishing not to experience the art .

[cherokeesam]

Originally Posted by American Maid

BTW, thanks, guys, for such rich posts!



Holy cow!! That's insane. So do you think they might do something like that--give Thor the Power Gem, send him into Warrior's Madness, and have some other characters have to take him on? By-and-by, it appears we will have Thanos and Adam Warlock introduced to the MCU (though, alas, not the Silver Surfer).

I don't think they'll get into individual Gems just yet, no. Some people still theorize that Loki was using the Mind Gem in Avengers, but the jury's still out on that. My own personal view has always been that Thor1 established that the Gauntlet is already made and sitting in Odin's treasury, so the Gems are already gathered there.

Warrior's Madness would be an interesting add to any Thor movie, but I don't think we'll see it in Thor 2 yet; simply because they're still trying to develop Thor in the MCU as a true good-guy hero. Giving him a Hulk-like out-of-control berserker rage wouldn't help much on that front.

Even though it's a right-handed glove?

Eh, I wouldn't read too much into that. A lot of posters in the Hype (and other sites) have already, and try to use that as "proof" that the IG in Thor1 (and in the SDCC display, and in the Kevin Feige interview....) can't possibly be "the real thing" since comic-book IG is a leftie. But I think that just boils down to the fact that Marvel Studios didn't research every single minute detail before going with it....the most important thing to remember is that in the Avengers movie, it's Thanos' RIGHT hand that is conspicuously bare. So I'm pretty sure the MCU version of the Gauntlet is a rightie.

Indeed, we may well see this element 10 months hence . Now, in Fear Itself, Thor ultimately is killed. Do you think they will do that here? I suppose that *is* "sacrificing everything to save us all." It's hard for me to believe they will. (not least because that figured into Thor1)

Thor was resurrected just a few issues later; superheroes never die in the comics.

And no, I don't think they'll let Thor die this early in the franchise. Even a "superhero death" that's retconned a film or two later. Again, Thor is still developing as a franchise, so it's too risky to start pulling tricks like that on the audience.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

I don't think they'll get into individual Gems just yet, no. Some people still theorize that Loki was using the Mind Gem in Avengers, but the jury's still out on that. My own personal view has always been that Thor1 established that the Gauntlet is already made and sitting in Odin's treasury, so the Gems are already gathered there.

Now that you mention it, it's probably better that the Gauntlet is already assembled. We get fewer installments when it comes to movies, so we don't have the luxury of a lot of preliminary stories or asides.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Warrior's Madness would be an interesting add to any Thor movie, but I don't think we'll see it in Thor 2 yet; simply because they're still trying to develop Thor in the MCU as a true good-guy hero. Giving him a Hulk-like out-of-control berserker rage wouldn't help much on that front.

That makes a lot of sense.

I said:

Even though it's a right-handed glove?

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Eh, I wouldn't read too much into that.

Not to worry; I'm just giving you a hard time

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

the most important thing to remember is that in the Avengers movie, it's Thanos' RIGHT hand that is conspicuously bare. So I'm pretty sure the MCU version of the Gauntlet is a rightie.

Maybe the guy they cast is right-handed.

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Thor was resurrected just a few issues later; superheroes never die in the comics.

And no, I don't think they'll let Thor die this early in the franchise. Even a "superhero death" that's retconned a film or two later. Again, Thor is still developing as a franchise, so it's too risky to start pulling tricks like that on the audience.

That makes sense.

[jaqua99]

Holy cow!! That's insane. So do you think they might do something like that--give Thor the Power Gem, send him into Warrior's Madness, and have some other characters have to take him on? By-and-by, it appears we will have Thanos and Adam Warlock introduced to the MCU (though, alas, not the Silver Surfer).

Not quiet yet. When Thor enters warrior's madness, it is a..disease if you will. With Thor just growing out of his, hungry warrior state, they are trying to display him as a bit more wise, and not quite as battle hungry. Sending him into warrior's madness in thor 2 would be a bit premature. Though I would love to see a bloodlusted warrior's madness mcu thor. Just not yet. And the power gem, it all depends if they go the route with the gem. I mean, the gauntlet is in there. I would like to sort of see an MCU Thanos quest, where he atleast collects some of the gems, and I am sure sam would too, considering he loves Thanos as much as I do. But I am with sam in thinking the IG in his room is canon. It wasn't even in a deleted scene, was it?

I agree with you guys. I think Thor has someone in mind and wants to see what Loki actually has been up to. Loki's lack of answer can't possibly be comforting in the least.

that's how I see it as well. I think we will get a better idea on how well thanos is known. I mean, if the IG in the vault IS canon. He must be pretty universally known. I don't know how much smaller scaled the IG will be in the MCU compared to the comics, but as sam and I said, it is incredibly powerful, and he essentially became god. Surely it's been downscaled. However, if the IG is in Odin's vault, then something already happened. Thanos already tried to complete some sort of universal plan, and with the IG he MUST have been some sort of universal threat. Given that, I am sure he is known through out the cosmos, it may be assumed that he is dead, or that no one knows where he is. Perhaps he is scheming for another chance to destroy the universe?

Even though it's a right-handed glove?

lol I think it's just mere coincidence

You mean Thor3, I presume? Are you saying you've given up on Surtur??

I think there is a risk of what you're describing coming to pass (Thanos vs. the Avengers). In the first place, they're going to need someone to fight, if not in Avengers 2, then in Avengers 3 (hence my question of clarification). Second, films in general are vulnerable to the "Humans are Special" trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...mansAreSpecial). As I've mentioned in this space, I've been watching Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, and that show is prone to setting up the fights (and the story) so that the humans (particularly Mr. Purple Pants and Mr. Smarty Pants) save the day, yet again. So this franchise in particular is vulnerable to it.

Oh I am sorry. No, I meant Thanos in Avengers 3. Not Thor 3. Since he probably had a universal plan, and the other said to him "the universe will be yours", whatever he is planning, if he abandons that temporarily to attack earth ok, but if he is defeated permanantly, and that's it? Surely you'd thnkk that sucks. He is planning something, then takes a break, only to get defeated, and we never even get to see him carry out this universal plan? I bet he IS going to attack earth, however, he needs more. ESPECIALLY where it has been established that he did have another goal in mind first most likely, which is why I think he needs to appear in avengers 3 as well. Personally, I love the idea of the first 3 avengers movie being a built up to thanos. Maybe thanos comes at the end of avengers 2. They defeat him in battle, but he still laughs, or something. After credit scene is like..warlock and nova or something asking for their help, telling them that the universe itself is in danger.

True, although too much of that essentially makes Heimdall suffer from the Worf Effect trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../TheWorfEffect) (This is Thor's problem, I think, in A:EMH)

<The panel that Elizah posted>


American maid, Sam said some very informative stuff, and when I quoted it, it appeared all messed up, it made it look like I did it, due to my screwing up of the quote feature, but the fear itself stuff, and heimdall stuff, that was sam, not me :P

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by jaqua99

Not quiet yet. When Thor enters warrior's madness, it is a..disease if you will. With Thor just growing out of his, hungry warrior state, they are trying to display him as a bit more wise, and not quite as battle hungry.

Okay. Makes sense.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

It wasn't even in a deleted scene, was it?

I dont' think so. I think it's an easter egg in the actual movie.

Originally Posted by jaqua99

<The panel that Elizah posted>
American maid, Sam said some very informative stuff, and when I quoted it, it appeared all messed up, it made it look like I did it, due to my screwing up of the quote feature, but the fear itself stuff, and heimdall stuff, that was sam, not me :P

No, the fault is mine.

When I'm replying to a long enough post (or in this case, two posts), I pull everything into WordPad. That way, if the Hype logs me out, I don't lose every-frickin-thing I composed (if I flub my password). Then I break up the text and paste in the QUOTE=whomever stuff. I recall that CherokeeSam had said that, but obviously I pasted the wrong label. I'll go fix it. Thanks for the tip.

[LokiDionysos]

About Darcy and the character Ian Boothby (some believe him to be her bf, i'm not sure yet), this is just speculation for now...

What if Ian Boothby actually equals a very basic version of marvel character Ian McNee? Or some combination of McNee & Darcy's bf to introduce the concept of the Sorcerer Supreme for future movies (Darcy/Selvig just think he's a little eccentric at first). A magic shop owner who aspires to be Sorcerer Supreme and could play a small part in the Strange movie. IMO there's no Dr. Strange in this movie...Only references to the title of Sorcerer Supreme, which Darcy's "boyfriend" may mysteriously know about...

He could be hiding his real name, or it's altered because he's not that important other than being interested in Tarot and some of the prophetic nature of Ragnarok.

Or he's in league with Chthon at this point in time, aka "the Other"...

http://marvel.wikia.com/Ian_McNee_%28Earth-616%29

"Ian consulted the First Tarot and found many oddities with the state of magic.

Ian was trapped in the Serpent's Sea and saved by a being appearing to be Oshtur. "Oshtur" asked Ian to gather the Ebon Rose, Darkhold, Sword of Bone, and the Serpent Crown in order to balance magic. Ian traveled through time and space to do so, encountering Morgan Le Fay, Llrya, Ammut, during his quests.

However, he learned that it was Chthon who had asked him to gather the items and attempted to corrupt the other cornerstones with the Darkhold. Chthon was banished, and now Ian must work with Ashake and Oshtur to repair the structure of magic."

[jaqua99]

I like that. It could eventually be a lead into Strange as well. eventually

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by cherokeesam

Eh, I wouldn't read too much into that. A lot of posters in the Hype (and other sites) have already, and try to use that as "proof" that the IG in Thor1 (and in the SDCC display, and in the Kevin Feige interview....) can't possibly be "the real thing" since comic-book IG is a leftie. But I think that just boils down to the fact that Marvel Studios didn't research every single minute detail before going with it....the most important thing to remember is that in the Avengers movie, it's Thanos' RIGHT hand that is conspicuously bare. So I'm pretty sure the MCU version of the Gauntlet is a rightie.

ooooh... however THAT would be quite a twist if someone stole the IG for Thanos brought it to him, and it was a fake! And Odin had hid the real one elsewhere. Hmmmm...

And no, I don't think they'll let Thor die this early in the franchise. Even a "superhero death" that's retconned a film or two later. Again, Thor is still developing as a franchise, so it's too risky to start pulling tricks like that on the audience.

he already "died" and Loki already "died" and then came back once, and then Iron Man "died" in Avengers and came back. I think if anyone else dies in the near future of these franchises then it's going to need to be more permanent otherwise it gets a little ridiculous. The audience will get apathetic with all the dying and coming back. I don't think Thor will "die" and come back again or Loki in the MCU, at least not anytime soon.

Originally Posted by American Maid

Now that you mention it, it's probably better that the Gauntlet is already assembled. We get fewer installments when it comes to movies, so we don't have the luxury of a lot of preliminary stories or asides.

which I think is a wise choice. They could always do a prequel I suppose that covers that part...

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

About Darcy and the character Ian Boothby (some believe him to be her bf, i'm not sure yet), this is just speculation for now...

What if Ian Boothby actually equals a very basic version of marvel character Ian McNee? Or some combination of McNee & Darcy's bf to introduce the concept of the Sorcerer Supreme for future movies (Darcy/Selvig just think he's a little eccentric at first). A magic shop owner who aspires to be Sorcerer Supreme and could play a small part in the Strange movie. IMO there's no Dr. Strange in this movie...Only references to the title of Sorcerer Supreme, which Darcy's "boyfriend" may mysteriously know about...

He could be hiding his real name, or it's altered because he's not that important other than being interested in Tarot and some of the prophetic nature of Ragnarok.

Or he's in league with Chthon at this point in time, aka "the Other"...

http://marvel.wikia.com/Ian_McNee_%28Earth-616%29

"Ian consulted the First Tarot and found many oddities with the state of magic.

Ian was trapped in the Serpent's Sea and saved by a being appearing to be Oshtur. "Oshtur" asked Ian to gather the Ebon Rose, Darkhold, Sword of Bone, and the Serpent Crown in order to balance magic. Ian traveled through time and space to do so, encountering Morgan Le Fay, Llrya, Ammut, during his quests.

However, he learned that it was Chthon who had asked him to gather the items and attempted to corrupt the other cornerstones with the Darkhold. Chthon was banished, and now Ian must work with Ashake and Oshtur to repair the structure of magic."

Originally Posted by jaqua99

I like that. It could eventually be a lead into Strange as well. eventually

I don't know about all of that but I think based on the fact that apparently Malekith can make a copy of a human in the comics, I am suspicious that he may wind up being a Dark Elf or a Malekith illusion spying on Jane and Erik's research, and possibly manipulating matters so the Dark Elves can invade. but that is total speculation. However it would fit well and more smoothly into the story then having it be kind of a disjointed sidetracking lead in to Dr. Strange the people may not see the benefit of for a long time and doesn't really work with the plot of the current film so well. (at least as far as I can see here) And that's an awful lot of backstory to devote to the character in a movie that is bound to be jam packed, versus, him being simply a minion of Malekith helping his fellow Dark Elves.

[LokiDionysos]

I'm thinking they could make him almost Ian McNee, and put a lot of the comedy in the interactions between Darcy and Ian. Even when the two are arguing. In this version he'd be a little bit more attractive although almost a magic geek. Obsessed with David Copperfield etc., stage magic. Then a slightly charged dynamic to their new found relationship develops as real magic appears on the scene.

Someone who relies on illusions and props, but also runs a successful business that sells occult supplies in London (taking a cue from Buffy so that he also sells strange book/artifacts). Maybe he hasn't dreamed of becoming Sorcerer Supreme yet and only heard rumors about the person who trains Strange, and/or Strange, from some of his customers. He'd sort of make a reference to the Sorcerer supreme in a joking way to Selvig & Darcy after Jane leaves Earth. Darcy kind of just rolls her eyes when he brings up the magic talk too much because she's seen things a lot crazier than what he does for a living. He'd be important in a small way to what goes on back on Earth, and how the film is said to start and end there.

He thinks he's a talented magician, knows a few card tricks and sleight of hand. But he's only heard some rumors about the Sorcerer Supreme as a real person/concept. Something passes through his shop that contains "real" power and screws up his clocks/watch. The Other has a lot of strange powers as well and can meet with people within their mind, on astral planes, but can't possess them. I think The Other was visiting each of the people he visited in Avengers on an astral plane... in the way they're defined in the comics.

None of them were actually floating around outside in space... It was a metaphoric construct for a meeting of minds... Which is why we see the serpent in the background... It's part of what Loki brings into his meeting with Chthon from his mind.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Astral_Plane

When The Other was talking to Loki, and Loki was on earth, neither transported anywhere. That whole conversation took place on an astral plane & inside their minds, in a way, because of the connection to the plane/ability to connect with their minds. Likewise, he may have been speaking to Thanos on an astral plane too, suggesting Thanos has some psychic powers, has his own astral plane, or can be brought into an astral plane like Loki. Surtur exists only in the astral realms at this point. The non-physical, dark matter, hidden side of existence. Hela is trapped far down below in the negative zones between dimensions...

Only beings with some kind of psychic/magic abilities can access astral planes. Characters such as Strange and Chthon. Loki, Malekith, and the more powerful/magical Asgardians as well. Certain beings have been banished from the physical side of existence and have to operate from within the dark, non-physical, side of existence. They operate through characters that have been touched by a power they don't understand or can even appear to magic based characters within their minds. These are beings like Surtur (at this stage because of a past conflict) and the Other. Although the Other has more freedom than Surtur and is playing all sides. Serving multiple villains... because it's this being we have to watch out for... and why he's not given a name yet.

Ian only does Tarot readings for Darcy throughout the movie in addition to owning the magic shop. Darcy kind of bugs him about not having any real powers, but he claims that in the right hands Tarot works.

Ian is stunned to find out Darcy was telling the truth about their extraordinary friend but ends up stuck with Darcy and Selvig as Thor and Jane go off on their own.

They're fooling around with the Tarot back on Earth. Killing time until Selvig figures out what's going on and a way to help Jane & Thor.

Darcy draws the death card in the middle position.... along with the Tower card which normally aren't in play for the method Ian uses, and shouldn't be in the deck. They can't figure out what's happening... she thinks it's sleight of hand and he's setting her up. They try again. She gets the Tower card reversed... It appears directly before the devil card in her spread... whereas numerically it comes after that card. Either way the Tower is seen as another bad omen Darcy doesn't want to believe (they start to think Thor and Jane are in trouble....) The Tarot cards foretell death as the central problem (not necessarily Darcy's death), followed by the inverted Tower card--the mouth of hell, before she pulls the devil card (the Tarot predicting Surtur).

Then Darcy keeps pulling the Tower card, implying something about her fate in this movie that both of them don't understand. They remove it from the deck each time and Ian swears he's not making the cards reappear.

Some basic interpretations of the Tower card(from wiki):


To some, it symbolizes failure, ruin and catastrophe.

• To others, the Tower represents the paradigms constructed by the ego, the sum total of all schema that the mind constructs to understand the universe. The Tower is struck by lightning when reality does not conform to expectation.
• Epiphanies, transcendental states of consciousness, and Kundalini experiences[5] may result. In the Triple Goddess Tarot, the card is named "Kundalini Rising".
• The Tower further symbolizes that moment in trance in which the mind actually changes the direction of the force of attention from alpha condition (pointed mindward) to theta condition (pointed imaginal stageward). A Theta condition (especially in waking versions of theta states) is that moment when information coming into the ego-mind overwhelms external or sensory stimuli, resulting in what might otherwise be called a "vision" or "hallucination."
• Each card in the Major Arcana is a related to the previous ones. After the self bondage of The Devil, life is self-correcting. Either the querents must make changes in their own lives, or the changes will be made for them.
• The querent may be holding on to false ideas or pretenses; a new approach to thinking about the problem is needed. The querent is advised to think outside the box. The querent is warned that truth may not oblige schema. It may be time for the querent to re-examine belief structures, ideologies, and paradigms they hold to. The card may also point toward seeking education or higher knowledge.
• Others believe that the Tower represents dualism, and the smashing of dualism into its component parts, in preparation for renewal that does not come from reified, entrenched concepts. The Ivory Tower as a parallel image comes to mind, with all its good parts and its bad parts.

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by elizah72

I don't know about all of that but I think based on the fact that apparently Malekith can make a copy of a human in the comics, I am suspicious that he may wind up being a Dark Elf or a Malekith illusion spying on Jane and Erik's research, and possibly manipulating matters so the Dark Elves can invade. but that is total speculation. However it would fit well and more smoothly into the story then having it be kind of a disjointed sidetracking lead in to Dr. Strange the people may not see the benefit of for a long time and doesn't really work with the plot of the current film so well. (at least as far as I can see here) And that's an awful lot of backstory to devote to the character in a movie that is bound to be jam packed, versus, him being simply a minion of Malekith helping his fellow Dark Elves.

I'm thinking that way because the Other very well could be a marvel character who's connected to this guy and Strange.
http://marvel.com/universe/Chthon

It seems too coincidental that one of his aliases happens to be Other.
"Chthon inscribed all of his dark knowledge into indestructable parchments which would come to be known as the Darkhold. Chthon then weaved a spell allowing him to escape to a new dimension, leaving the Darkhold behind to serve as a touchstone to his home. "

One of these parchments goes through Ian's shop.
Malekith has another...

I'm just gonna say I'm pretty sure "the Other" is in this movie, and since Thanos isn't, I'm trying to find ways to piece it all together towards the big picture and what the Other can do (kind of touched on in my last posts). The way I see it The Other may or may not be Chthon, who has ties to Strange. The Other is a huge threat if that's who he is and he's been around since the dawn of time, like Surtur. He's got some connections to the magical side of existence. He may be able to appear before any of the villains who possess psychic or magic powers because of the astral projection element. Which is what I believe we see him doing in Avengers when he talks to Loki in the prison of his mind. He may even be able to contact and bridge the gap between Thanos and beings from before the dawn of time, other magic users, or those that are timeless and deal with death.

If you really think about it we have no official explanation yet about what happened to Loki between Thor and Avengers and how he met the Other.

Sometime after Loki fell off the bifrost the Other contacted him, or in some way met Loki and put the scepter in Loki's hand. Thanos and the Other have already reached out to an Asgardian, what's to stop the Other from visiting other beings who have fallen into wormholes or vortexes, or deal with the magical side of existence and backdoors?

Thanos basically used the Other to bridge the gap between him and Loki... He couldn't contact or retrieve Loki from where he went, nor could he enter Asgard. However "The Other" can, and he can still contact Loki where ever he is. From within his mind as he did in Avengers. Although he can't hurt him/be physically present. Alternatively, something else attacks from within Loki.

It is gonna be a jam packed movie, though.
I really think this movie has nothing to worry about in comparison to IM3.
Each are gonna be really big in their own ways..
But the scale of this movie seems much larger, and almost like they want to keep this one a secret more than the others...


I definitely loved reading that speculation, it really could be Malekith operating the Boothby character now that I think about it.

[American Maid]

<a tie-in for Dr. Strange>

Originally Posted by elizah72

I don't know about all of that but I think based on the fact that apparently Malekith can make a copy of a human in the comics, I am suspicious that he may wind up being a Dark Elf or a Malekith illusion spying on Jane and Erik's research, and possibly manipulating matters so the Dark Elves can invade. but that is total speculation.

I suppose you are referring to Malekith enchanting a piece of wood to look like Lorelei and interact with Thor. Lorelei is, of course, Asgardian, although in fairness Thor thought she was Midgardian at the time of that scene.

(And as another aside, Odin looks in on them later and figures out right away that it's actually Lorelei, and that she has tricked Thor. He's totally down with Thor being involved with a woman who is manipulating him with a potion and lying to him, so long as she's not Midgardian. And he's not going to bother to tell Thor about the lie, either. Thanks, dad!)

Getting back to Malekith, he can also ensorcel mortals. If they eat Fae food, they become enslaved. Their bodies remain wherever they were ensorceled, but their souls are displaced to Hel. So in this case, he is not making a copy of the human, but rather subverting his or her will and assuming control of the body. Those thus ensnared appear to be obedient to direction from any of the Dark Elves. And if they eat mortal food, the body perishes.

Malekith can also change his form (as can his lieutenant, Wormwood) and thus impersonate a particular human. It's not clear that all Dark Elves have this power.

It seems logical that he could enchant a piece of wood to look like a human, or that he could put a spell on a Dark Elf to make him or her look like a human. But I have not actually seen that thus far (though I still have lots to read).

All of these remarks are based on what Simonson presents. I haven't had the time to read up on myths surrounding the Fae in general (ie, outside of the Marvel or Marvel Thor contexts) to determine whether these are consistent powers or invented for this storyline.

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

I definitely loved reading that speculation, it really could be Malekith operating the Boothby character now that I think about it.

Yeah, I think it has merit, too. Either a disguised Dark Elf or an ensorceled human working for the Dark Elves, trying to push Jane and/or Erik in the Svartalfheim direction.

[American Maid]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

Surtur exists only in the astral realms at this point. The non-physical, dark matter, hidden side of existence.

Surtur was trapped in Muspelheim by Odin and his brothers at the dawn of time. I have the impression that the astral realms are different from any of the Nine Realms, and Muspelheim is one of the Nine Realms.

That's how it's presented in the Simonson run, but I have the impression that's pretty standard for the various Marvel continuities.

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by American Maid

Surtur was trapped in Muspelheim by Odin and his brothers at the dawn of time. I have the impression that the astral realms are different from any of the Nine Realms, and Muspelheim is one of the Nine Realms.

That's how it's presented in the Simonson run, but I have the impression that's pretty standard for the various Marvel continuities.

I'm thinking of ways to tie things together, but it could be as simple as that
You know how there was a little bit of talk about Malekith having some sort of past?
And there's a story behind his face?

It's kind of like that...

In my scenario Surtur has already escaped once before and we learn about him/Muspellheim through flashbacks and what Malekith did in the past.

Which was try to start Ragnarok early with the whole twilight arc.
However, Odin put a stop to this.

As I keep trying to hint, the same things that happened in Malekith's past may be connected to what has trapped Surtur in his present state.
Odin didn't know Malekith was involved, and when he cast a spell to banish all involved to a new dimension in the astral side of existence the spell saw Malekith as only half-responsible. Odin was unaware, and only half of Malekith's existence was sealed away for all eternity. He now has a permanent connection to this astral plane/temporal vortex that Odin created, and Odin doesn't know (he assumes the spell must have taken anyone involved and sealed them away permanently). In my theory Ragnarok already began and Odin put a stop to it, we get to see some of it in flashbacks. But it didn't go down like the myths.
Malekith tried to start it early, so it's only half begun and has yet to play itself out fully.
It's almost like it's inevitable that he'll return and Malekith believes he has to finish starting Ragnarok, but it'll occur on its own so long as Malekith is still tied to physical reality as well. There's a catch, if they just kill him and free his spirit then Surtur is free because of Malekith's past connection to him and to the astral plane. Ragnarok is destined to go forward and there are a number of dark forces now pushing towards it.

That's the thing, Ragnarok started at some point prior to the first movie, and Odin dealt with it quietly. Surtur was released and sealed away somewhere Odin hoped the Dark elves couldn't free him from again. Malekith wants to complete what he started a long time ago.


I don't know exactly what Malekith did in the past, but part of his backstory explains his face and the twilight between the physical and non-physical that was created because of that incident.

Surtur's already faced off against Odin a long time ago and Malekith is seen as a traitor, although Malekith's direct involvement was not known and the dark elves themselves were branded as traitors.

In the past Malekith and the dark elves already tried to initiate Ragnarok by freeing Surtur but Odin was able to stop Surtur...

He actually defeated Surtur once before. Malekith escaped unseen, but not unscathed.
However, he couldn't actually kill Surtur or get him back to Muspelheim so he trapped him in the astral realms. Which, unfortunately, is one of the places the Other made his home, and the realm he controls and rules now...

To banish Surtur to the astral realms, and essentially erase his from existence and imprison his spirit, Odin had to make a pact with some of the other groups that upset the Vanir. He saw it as necessary at the time and some of the Vanir see things a different way.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

Ian Mcnee...

I think that's making it a bit too much Dr. Strange/Ian Mcnee and not enough Thor, especially if they bring Tarot cards into it. That's an awful lot of time spent on tarot cards and minor characters when they should be exploring Thor's world more (as we have been told will be explored)

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

I'm thinking that way because the Other very well could be a marvel character who's connected to this guy and Strange.
http://marvel.com/universe/Chthon

he may very well be, and he may show up in Thor 2 briefly as a reminder to the audience about Thanos being upset with Loki for his failure. He could even work with Malekith as a go between if he's working with Thanos instead of Surtur here, or if Mistress Death is involved he could appear with her. She could be the shadowy enemy that predates the universe and a force that even Odin the Asgardians can't withstand. (or a combination of Hela and Mistress Death to later be Thanos' object of affection). But that's a pretty BIG maybe. I can certainly see a death figure appearing in Thor 2 with so much war and death likely to be occurring.

However I Think it's much more likely we might see The Other at the end after credits maybe as Loki is confronted by him, and threatened as a cliffhanger to lead in to A2... but that may be all as far as he is involved in Thor 2.

If you really think about it we have no official explanation yet about what happened to Loki between Thor and Avengers and how he met the Other.

I've speculated that Loki may have actually died, and could have met Mistress Death or Hela and then talked his way out of death, impressing her or whatever... (which he's done in comics more than once) and then was brought to Thanos then via Mistress Death or Hela if she winds up being Thanos' object of affection instead (or a combination of the two). That's my current thoughts on that, anyway. LOL

Sometime after Loki fell off the bifrost the Other contacted him, or in some way met Loki and put the scepter in Loki's hand.

note: a 5 fingered pale figure with a very human possibly female looking hand and a different cloak from the Other puts the scepter in Loki's hand.

I definitely loved reading that speculation, it really could be Malekith operating the Boothby character now that I think about it.

I think it fits nicely into what we know will be involved with Thor 2, and what we know to be involved with Malekith and the Dark Elves storyline in the comics. Like the English Cottwalds being a doorway to Svartalfheim in the comics and that instead being Greenwich U, seemingly. Well it makes perfect sense for Malekith to have someone manipulating things so that the portal researchers go specifically there, to open a portal to Svartalfheim so they can attack, doesn't it? Fits perfectly into the story. Far more a coincidental "stretch" if Jane and Erik just happen to go there by accident.

Originally Posted by American Maid

(And as another aside, Odin looks in on them later and figures out right away that it's actually Lorelei, and that she has tricked Thor. He's totally down with Thor being involved with a woman who is manipulating him with a potion and lying to him, so long as she's not Midgardian. And he's not going to bother to tell Thor about the lie, either. Thanks, dad!)

NICE!

Malekith can also change his form (as can his lieutenant, Wormwood) and thus impersonate a particular human. It's not clear that all Dark Elves have this power.

Interesting! Yup. Could actually be Wormwood.

[American Maid]

<Ian Boothby as an agent of the Dark Elves>

Originally Posted by elizah72

I think it fits nicely into what we know will be involved with Thor 2, and what we know to be involved with Malekith and the Dark Elves storyline in the comics. Like the English Cottwalds being a doorway to Svartalfheim in the comics and that instead being Greenwich U, seemingly. Well it makes perfect sense for Malekith to have someone manipulating things so that the portal researchers go specifically there, to open a portal to Svartalfheim so they can attack, doesn't it? Fits perfectly into the story. Far more a coincidental "stretch" if Jane and Erik just happen to go there by accident.

Well, in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes, each of the Nine Realms is in its own dimension. At certain spots on the Earth, the dimensions overlap and there it is possible to open a wormhole between them (Stark and T'Challa (the Black Panther) propose to build a device to do this). If they use the same idea of dimensional overlap here, then Jane & Co. would be looking for such soft spots. So they might just happen to go to this locale or that as they search. But if the University of Greenwich site has overlap *only* with Svartalfheim, then it would be odd for them to go to that site in the absence of external influence. Their goal, after all, is Asgard.

[elizah72]

Originally Posted by LokiDionysos

I'm thinking of ways to tie things together, but it could be as simple as that
You know how there was a little bit of talk about Malekith having some sort of past?
And there's a story behind his face?

It's kind of like that...

the difference being that we know Malekith will be in this for sure. The other stuff is speculation about characters that may not even appear in Thor 2.

As I keep trying to hint, the same things that happened in Malekith's past may be connected to what has trapped Surtur in his present state.
Odin didn't know Malekith was involved, and when he cast a spell to banish all involved to a new dimension he created in the astral side of existence it saw Malekith as only half-responsible. Odin was unaware, and only half of Malekith's existence was sealed away for all eternity. He now has a permanent connection to this astral plane/temporal vortex that Odin created, and Odin doesn't know (he assumes the spell must have taken anyone involved and sealed them away permanently). In my theory Ragnarok already began and Odin put a stop to it, we get to see some of it in flashbacks. But it didn't go down like the myths.
Malekith tried to start it early, so it's only half begun and has yet to play itself out fully.
It's almost like it's inevitable that he'll return and Malekith believes he has to finish starting Ragnarok, but it'll occur on its own so long as Malekith is still tied to physical reality as well. There's a catch, if they just kill him and free his spirit then Surtur is free because of Malekith's past connection to him and to the astral plane. Ragnarok is destined to go forward and there are a number of dark forces now pushing towards it.

I think that it'll be far far more straight forward than that, what you propose will be difficult and timely to show and will probably go over much of the audience's head. I think he fought Odin or Thor at one point and was injured and he's mad about it and that's that.

I also think that the comic that I linked could also be part of the backstory (a variation on it) the comic itself is not canon but it was done to tie in with the films, so that could be an indicator of what direction they may go in for the films. So as an example, it appears that Queen Alfyse dies in that comic, and if the Dark Elves and Malekith are vengeful towards about that, then that could be part of the reason for the attack on Midgard, if it's known Thor has a soft spot for the place (and a certain scientist). OR they could totally rewrite that part and have it be about whoever injured Malekith, but I just think the how and why will be fairly straightforward.

To do so Odin had to banish him to the astral realms after making a pact with some of the other groups that upset the Vanir.

THIS, I have thought maybe some of Odin's making peace with the Frost Giants after their big bid to take over the 9 realms, could have upset some of the other realms that were also attacked, such as the Vanir (if they were particularly hard hit and didn't feel they got enough timely help from the Asgardians). That could certainly create some bad blood, and also that could be where we get different opinions on Loki and Thor as Tom has been quoted as saying. If Loki is seen by at least some realms as a hero for trying to do away with the Frost Giants, and then he's jailed and Thor, previously another big bully in the 9 realms, is to be king, I can see why a war may erupt over that. And that would tie in possibly with Thor needing Loki to negotiate a truce with the Vanir so they can get the Dark Elves back under control.

[American Maid]

<Odin making a pact that would upset, e.g., the Vanir>

Originally Posted by elizah72

THIS, I have thought maybe some of Odin's making peace with the Frost Giants after their big bid to take over the 9 realms, could have upset some of the other realms that were also attacked, such as the Vanir (if they were particularly hard hit and didn't feel they got enough timely help from the Asgardians). That could certainly create some bad blood, and also that could be where we get different opinions on Loki and Thor as Tom has been quoted as saying. If Loki is seen by at least some realms as a hero for trying to do away with the Frost Giants, and then he's jailed and Thor, previously another big bully in the 9 realms, is to be king, I can see why a war may erupt over that. And that would tie in possibly with Thor needing Loki to negotiate a truce with the Vanir so they can get the Dark Elves back under control.

Well, if Odin's making peace with the Frost Giants is the source of the trouble, it's been simmering for 1,000 Earth years. That seems a bit delayed. So it seems like there would need to be trouble-making in the intervening years to keep the conflict active and eventually cause it to boil over.

I continue to agree that the other realms may not see Thor in as benevolent terms as the audience, Midgard, and Asgard do. I also like the idea that what is good for Asgard is not automatically what is good for all the other realms, even if they are not considered to be "bad guy" realms, as it were.

And I continue to like the idea of needing to negotiate some truces with various parties.

[elizah72]

Well, if Odin's making peace with the Frost Giants is the source of the trouble, it's been simmering for 1,000 Earth years.

this is true.

That seems a bit delayed. So it seems like there would need to be trouble-making in the intervening years to keep the conflict active and eventually cause it to boil over.

My thinking is that they didn't dare question it publically before, but anger had been building and burning them for all that time. Then finally someone tries to do away with the monstrous murderous Frost Giants and he's punished for it... and now Odin appears to be weakening and so not as intimidating as he was 1000 years ago.... maybe... ... but Thor is about to take over and they decide to get together with other forces and realms and strike before that can happen and Thor is even more powerful... per my last summary.

And I continue to like the idea of needing to negotiate some truces with various parties.

Conflict keeps stories interesting, and it gets a bit monotonous if conflict is always clear good guy versus definite bad guy and always solved by bad guy being imprisoned or dying. It's good to inject some "grey" into these conflicts.

[LokiDionysos]

Whatever is going on back on Earth has to be connected to the overall story.
This seems like the type of movie that might dovetail.

We've heard in one interview or another that the movie starts and ends on Earth.

So, something really important is going on during the Earth scenes, even if it's not revealed that something important is going on until late in the film.
They could briefly cut back to what's going on with these characters back on Earth. Selvig is busy helping with Jane's research that's important for solving everything, and Darcy + Ian are shown in a bunch of comedic scenes at first. Making us think the short scenes back on Earth have no meaning other than comic relief....

I'm picturing the Tarot scene almost in the middle of the movie, no longer than 2 mins in length... Setting up the fact that something is still going on back on Earth, something connected to whatever force is possessing Jane, and it's still operating back on Earth, doing the weird stuff manipulating the cards. And is predicting the future but that's because it's working towards it through Ian and now trying to use Darcy/Selvig.

I'm on the same page that something uses Ian to get to Darcy, and then that helps Malekith open the portal..
I think I've actually been won over now. I think it could simply be Malekith/the dark elves doing a lot of the manipulating/ completely behind the possession.
It could still work the way I described, with Sorcerer supreme references if Malekith knows about Strange and uses the magic shop owner as his disguise on Earth. So basically Ian would have been Malekith's illusion the whole time, and never even owned a shop.

Whatever the case I think something is influencing/controlling/possessing this character and it links in with the force possessing Jane. It moves to Jane first and she shakes it off after she gets to Asgard, but he circles Darcy with this illusion.

Then during the finale we get the reveal about why Earth is important, but I agree there needs to be something directing the characters back on earth towards the end of the movie.

[LokiDionysos]

Originally Posted by elizah72

the difference being that we know Malekith will be in this for sure. The other stuff is speculation about characters that may not even appear in Thor 2.

Practically the only thing Malekith is known for is his connection to Surtur/twilight. I think Malekith can be a good villain, but I 100% believe he's mainly a red herring here or secretly operating this character on Earth... Even Algrim/Kurse could have more things in store for people, and that could be why we haven't seen him yet. With everything else going on Malekith won't actually be in much of the movie... just one big gear in the machine.

I basically know "the Other" will be in the film. You don't have to trust me. But he will be. What role he plays I don't know for sure. So it could be really small, and just a way to connect to Thanos.

I don't want to say too much. I already have if you add it all together.

I absolutely know Surtur will be involved. Some people have said his presence will be felt, his presence in this movie will be huge. But he won't be free in this movie.

I absolutely know Dr. Strange will not be in this movie. However, there's definitely a strange reference in the movie. I don't know how the rumor started that Strange was actually in it but somehow he'll be referenced... again you'll have to trust me on this. I'm not usually this straightforward :P I'm trying to explain how some connections to Strange might have been taken out of context.
Steven Mcnee prob is a little bit too much to work in, so you're probably right.

malekith manipulating people that way would make a lot of sense. This whole line of thought only came to me because I realized Ian Mcnee has a connection to Strange and possibly "the other". Not sure about this character. Just thinking of ways to get to the Strange reference. So no Strange in the movie, but I've been told there will be a reference. And that's one tiny piece of info I'm trying to help shape my theories. Could be way off base here, but I'm trying to connect the Tarot stuff to the threat of Surtur in a way.