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Old 01-01-2013, 07:58 PM   #76
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I will say this, the only way I can see the 'revenge' plot working from the perspective I've pointed too is that it's Bane who convinces Talia to do it as a means for him to take control of the LoS. She's loyal to him so it is plausible that he could convince her that this is what she should do.

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:12 PM   #77
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Its a metaphor for Al Queda attacking New York. Transformation of the Western World Bane says.

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Old 01-01-2013, 08:55 PM   #78
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I know I'm a little late on this topic, and someone may have already said this, but the League of Shadows only attacked Gotham because of Talia. Talia took control of the LoS (being the heir to the throne and all) and used Bane as her muscle to take down the city her father dedicated his life, and died, trying to take down. Talia didn't care if Gotham was clean or not, she just wanted her father's life goal to be complete.

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Old 01-01-2013, 09:03 PM   #79
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I will say this, the only way I can see the 'revenge' plot working from the perspective I've pointed too is that it's Bane who convinces Talia to do it as a means for him to take control of the LoS. She's loyal to him so it is plausible that he could convince her that this is what she should do.
And to me, that is sort of the interesting thing about how their relationship is presented. They are both so loyal to one another that what you've suggested is entirely plausible and not really contradicted at all by what the movie shows.

It could be that Bane is one who came up with the entire plan, and was just fortunate enough to have a special relationship with an al Ghul in high places to help make it happen.

Or it could be that Talia, as she says, was more concerned with honoring her father as opposed to avenging him, but needed an acting commander she both trusted and knew was capable of waging the scale of war that was necessary. Enter her old protector.

Or ... how about ... with Ra's and Ubu/Watanabe both dead after the events of BB, the LOS are crippled by a lack of leadership. With no foreseeable future for the League, many of the remaining men go off do freelance mercenary work, while many others become members of Bane's army (like Barsad). As Bane's men develop a fierce loyalty to him, his legend grows and they become something of a "new" LOS, but are still ultimately mercenaries working as hired guns. Meanwhile, Miranda Tate (having changed her identity to after the falling out with her father) is living the life of an international philanthropist, while quietly dealing with her father's death and contemplating the future. Eventually she learns that Bane is running his own operation, establishes contact with him... the emergence of Ra's al Ghul's rightful heir to the throne energizes all the smaller splintered pieces of the LOS to unite under a higher goal, aka "The fire rises". Talia proposes another attack on Gotham, Bane is happy to oblige and an unholy alliance is forged.

Sorry, I know I just went off on a furious fanfic tangent there, but this is one of those gaps in the movie that I find very ripe for imagination. I think there's a good story in there and I really wish it could be told via graphic novel some day. I'd bet good money that this part of the backstory has been mapped out in a Nolan's (or Goyer's) notebook somewhere. It's screenwriting 101 that you always come up with a backstory for your characters even if it's not dealt with in the movie. I could swear I remember reading that Nolan had is own idea of what The Joker's backstory was too, even though he never intended to divulge it to the audience, but that it just helps the process. Don't quote me on that though, I'm not 100% sure about that one.

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Old 01-01-2013, 09:42 PM   #80
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

The main issue I have even with my concession is that why wouldn't Bane just run his own operation? He was a skilled fighter who could easily have formed his own radical organization, what does rejoining the LoS actually mean to him? A big F-U to the old man as it were? Why would he want to take over for an organization that didn't want him? You could make the argument that the LoS isn't actually in this film at all and when Bane says 'I am the LoS' he's referring to himself alone as the last member, but then again why does he care about Ra's destiny? When you lay it all on the table like that it just doesn't hold water for me.

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Old 01-01-2013, 10:30 PM   #81
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Well the way I see it is that Nolan couldnt throw the whole Bane/los history and timeline(from the comics) in one movie.


In the comics, Bane starts off as a mercernary, breaks the Bat, gets his ass kicked by that blonde dude taking steroids, then after a while - as RAG suggests to Bruce in Batman Begins - becomes truly lost; he is looking for a cause and joins the LOS (and in the process falls in love with Talia).

There is also one comics where Bane fights Batman again, and Bane tells him during the fight that he wants to take the LOS over; to which Batman replies : " lol there is no ****ing way RAG is gonna let that happen " (or something like that)

Sure in Nolanverse he is trained by RAG and then gets kicked out by the LOS, but other than that...

Plus, he was referred to as a "mercenary" early in the movie

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Old 01-01-2013, 10:47 PM   #82
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

The question is was the LoS thing required in the first place. I maintain eliminating that aspect of the story and giving Bane his own motivation would make for a much better movie. The other thing the LoS stuff does is dilutes both Talia and Catwoman. I believe this film shows exactly why Talia works best when Ra's is in the picture and was the exact thing I feared going into this film.

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Old 01-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #83
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I know I'm a little late on this topic, and someone may have already said this, but the League of Shadows only attacked Gotham because of Talia. Talia took control of the LoS (being the heir to the throne and all) and used Bane as her muscle to take down the city her father dedicated his life, and died, trying to take down. Talia didn't care if Gotham was clean or not, she just wanted her father's life goal to be complete.
Sort of. Talia represents the dark vengeance side of Bruce that strives to fulfill his father's goal of saving Gotham (but with very different methods), while Bane represents the pure need for justice from the circumstances he's experienced. Both are doing it out of their own need for justice, though, same as Bruce. They are presented as equals, both in it together, the plan would never have been that close to succeeding without the other. In either case, there are more than enough reasons presented within even the first page of this thread that back up the idea that the LOS would have wanted to attack Gotham again.

To sum it up: The LOS is a terrorist organization that disagrees with the values of Gotham's society. "When a society reaches the pinnacle of its decadence" they come back to reset the balance. The Gotham presented in TDKR is rife with examples of this (which are discussed in detail throughout the thread). It was never about street crime, it was about the balance of society and the values they adhere to. They attack Gotham because it is the biggest city that represents Western civilization, so by attacking it and changing their perception, it would have a domino effect throughout the Western world.

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Old 01-01-2013, 11:21 PM   #84
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Well, I figure Bane and Talia needed each other in order to enact a plan on the scale that they did. She needed him as a leader and enforcer, and he needed her resources. I think after two failed attempts to bring down Gotham, it was go big or go home. They needed a game-changer. That fusion reactor was crucial to the entire plan, and that was really Miranda's baby. Bane was a great tactical leader, but a viable mole in Wayne Enterprises is a hard thing to come by- and that's leaving Bane's personal adoration of Talia off the table.

The nuclear threat made for a very unique scenario in which Bane could rule over Gotham without interference from the government or outside world. Even if Bane did have his own independent ambitions for supervillainy, I think it'd be hard for a guy like him to turn down the prospect of such power and grandiosity. I get the feeling he sees any position of power as a natural entitlement. I mean, even though the plan ultimately failed, his name gets a special place in US history books for his unprecedented acts of war.

And you're right, you could make that argument that the actual LoS aren't really in the film and it's all just his mercenaries and other men he recruited in the sewers- either way, they all fiercely respect and fear him, and I think that's always a position he'll gravitate towards. Even he hates Ra's (which I'm not entirely sure about), it doesn't mean he hates the ideals behind the LoS or that he might not still fancy himself the right man for the job.


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To sum it up: The LOS is a terrorist organization that disagrees with the values of Gotham's society. "When a society reaches the pinnacle of its decadence" they come back to reset the balance. The Gotham presented in TDKR is rife with examples of this (which are discussed in detail throughout the thread). It was never about street crime, it was about the balance of society and the values they adhere to. They attack Gotham because it is the biggest city that represents Western civilization, so by attacking it and changing their perception, it would have a domino effect throughout the Western world.
Very true, and that's why allowing it to crumble of its own people's volition was a huge part of the plan and took it to a territory that was a lot more unsettling than Ra's trying to accomplish the same thing via a chemical attack. It was more like the Joker's ferry experiment on a city-wide scale that resulted in a complete breakdown of society. It showed how weak and vulnerable the rich and powerful really were when the chips were down.

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Old 01-02-2013, 06:09 AM   #85
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I can go on forever in this thread, but I'll keep it short. Talia was an idiot who had no idea what the goals were for the LoS or what her fathers intentions were. And the whole revenge thing? I've said this before but she would not have had a strong enough bond with her father to have cared about him after their falling out. And of course all she had to do was blow up the city, so really, she's an idiot.
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For a series hellbent on realism the parental/child bond between Talia and Ra's wouldn't nearly be as strong given the age the characters first met. Talia's father figure would be Bane, therefore her desire for 'revenge' would be almost non-existent.
Exactly. We were at least given a reason WHY Talia was doing it, even if it did feel weak.

Bane got no such details. He was strictly loyal to Talia. I believe everything that was done was on her instructions. Keep Bruce alive and broken in the pit she and her mother suffered in, torture the city as revenge against the man who killed her father etc.

Bane had no personal stake in it. Not for Bruce or Gotham. Only Talia. Bane has been serving, protecting, and putting his life on the line for Talia since she was a kid. Same thing here years later. That's how it's presented, IMO.

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Have people arrived at "They did it because they are evil/misguided", yet?

Talia had so much potential...

Bah.
The worst excuse of all!

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I can only assume that when Bane was excommunicated from the LoS that Talia went with him, to me that says her bond was always with Bane which makes sense given he was their protecting her for the first dozen years of her life, any child shrink would tell you that no matter how much blood they shared Talia and Ra's relationship would never be as strong as her relationship with Bane. Ultimately the more plausible outcome wouldn't be someone who would seek revenge, it's someone who would accept what happened and would move on because her actual parental figure, ie Bane, is still alive. Guilt about a falling out? Perhaps, but not to the extent of planning to finish what he started, it's doesn't make any logical sense from a realism perspective anyway.
Agreed 100%

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Old 01-02-2013, 09:45 AM   #86
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Or ... how about ... with Ra's and Ubu/Watanabe both dead after the events of BB, the LOS are crippled by a lack of leadership. With no foreseeable future for the League, many of the remaining men go off do freelance mercenary work, while many others become members of Bane's army (like Barsad). As Bane's men develop a fierce loyalty to him, his legend grows and they become something of a "new" LOS, but are still ultimately mercenaries working as hired guns. Meanwhile, Miranda Tate (having changed her identity to after the falling out with her father) is living the life of an international philanthropist, while quietly dealing with her father's death and contemplating the future. Eventually she learns that Bane is running his own operation, establishes contact with him... the emergence of Ra's al Ghul's rightful heir to the throne energizes all the smaller splintered pieces of the LOS to unite under a higher goal, aka "The fire rises". Talia proposes another attack on Gotham, Bane is happy to oblige and an unholy alliance is forged.

.
This very similar to what I imagined happened. I imagined that they found themselves in very different places socially when they reunited but having similar goals and their friendship was rekindled and the plan was mutually developed.

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Old 01-02-2013, 01:40 PM   #87
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I can only assume that when Bane was excommunicated from the LoS that Talia went with him, to me that says her bond was always with Bane which makes sense given he was their protecting her for the first dozen years of her life, any child shrink would tell you that no matter how much blood they shared Talia and Ra's relationship would never be as strong as her relationship with Bane. Ultimately the more plausible outcome wouldn't be someone who would seek revenge, it's someone who would accept what happened and would move on because her actual parental figure, ie Bane, is still alive. Guilt about a falling out? Perhaps, but not to the extent of planning to finish what he started, it's doesn't make any logical sense from a realism perspective anyway.
There are always exceptions to the rules. The fact that you're so sure about how a little girl would react when you have very little knowledge of what she was thinking about is incredibly misguided.

In my mind, her relationship with Bane is more of that of an older brother, but she always was seeking her father, and the idealized relationship that is the father/daughter relationship. When Ra's later banishes a man who was essentially a brother to her, she has an internal hatred for him for that, but upon his death by betrayal, she finally sees him for what he was in his own mind. It mirrors a very natural child/parent relationship - you idealize them as a child, find your own way (and see how far you can push yourself from them) as you grow, then finally appreciate them for what they truly are as a mature adult.

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Old 01-02-2013, 01:46 PM   #88
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I don't see Talia's have more of connection with Bane than she would of have had with her father. Bane did not start protecting her till she was at least 4 or 5 yrs of age. Remember during the flashbacks, Bane doesn't come into the fold until the doctor forgets to lock the cell door. So, we're looking at around 5 years of protection from Bane. Talia's mother would have told her about her real father. How he would not have abandoned them if he had known about their circumstances. It wasn't as Ra's had abandoned her and her mother. To a child that is important to know that her real father would love her if he knew, instead of feeling abandoned and alone. The power of a biological parent is powerful, especially when one or both are not in the picture, and it isn't due to an untimely death or even at war. Just a few hundred years ago, a child not seeing their father, due to war, might have been 5 or 10 years of age before seeing their fathers for the time. So, Talia's wanting to honor her father, especially when they had a disagreement over Bane, in order to find some sense of closure. Some may call this weak, but I call it being human.


Edited: I agree with TheBat812.

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Old 01-02-2013, 06:26 PM   #89
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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There are always exceptions to the rules. The fact that you're so sure about how a little girl would react when you have very little knowledge of what she was thinking about is incredibly misguided.

In my mind, her relationship with Bane is more of that of an older brother, but she always was seeking her father, and the idealized relationship that is the father/daughter relationship. When Ra's later banishes a man who was essentially a brother to her, she has an internal hatred for him for that, but upon his death by betrayal, she finally sees him for what he was in his own mind. It mirrors a very natural child/parent relationship - you idealize them as a child, find your own way (and see how far you can push yourself from them) as you grow, then finally appreciate them for what they truly are as a mature adult.
Ask any child shrink and they'll tell you that Talia and Bane's relationship would be father-daughter like and not brother-sister like. There are no exceptions, the parental figure in her life would be Bane because he was there from the beginning and Ra's was not. One does not simply meet their biological father for the first time at age 11 or 12 and see that person as their parent, and they never will because it's infused in the child's head that their father figure is the one who raised them.

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Old 01-02-2013, 06:56 PM   #90
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Bane was only in her life for about five years, not ten. The doctor kept her and her mother safe until he forget to lock the jail door. It was at that time Bane comes in to protect her. And she looked around 4 or 5 years old at that time. Not from the beginning. Also, we aren't given an age of Bane at the time when he was in the pit. bane could have been just 18 or 20 yrs of age at the time of Talia's mother being killed. So, a brother sister type relationship is plausible. There is just not that much background into Bane or Talia to get a positive feedback on their type of relationship.

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Old 01-02-2013, 08:13 PM   #91
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Here's my two cents.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that Talia and Bane are equals and co-Big Bads of TDKR, and I believe the idea is strongly supported in the film. Some audience members discard all of Bane's previous monologues after the reveal, believeing that he was going out of his way to decieve Bruce and the audience about himself. I think that's wrong. All of Bane's speeches to Dagget and Bruce hint at a fanatical devotion to Ra's Al Ghul as his savior, role model, and ultimately some very twisted self perceptions.

Bane's whole demeanor and personality are pretty clearly cut from the same cloth as Ra's, but cut up crudely with broken scissors. Both men have a measured, verbose method of speaking, both have a veneer of gentlemanly manners around a ruthlessly cold interior, and both are highly charasmatic leaders of the League. But whereas all these traits are genuine in Ra's, Bane's are an imitation that's just kind of naturally more barbaric than his master. Bane's favorite posture-holding the lapels of his jacket or straps-is first shown in Batman Begins by Ra's doing the same thing. In the same way that Bruce's graying hair and beard draw a visual parallel with the "Ducard" persona of Ra's, Bane's personality parallels their mutual mentor's true self and ninja master manner.

Bane quite clearly holds to the League's goal of killing Gotham, which as other's have noted, is meant to be more of a strike against the world, to begin "the next era of western civilization." Bane has no intention of straightening out the Gothamites with harsh discipline; he intends to radically alter the culture and history of the West, in the same way that Rome's fall marks the beginning of the Dark Ages and Constantinople's fall leads to the internalization of European politics and their eventual imperialization.

The first fight has Bane going all out in proclaiming himself Ra's Al Ghul's heir and successor to the leadership of the LOS, and we have no reason to doubt that he does see himself that way. His biggest competition killed their predecessor, which even Loki notes won't gain you any friends. At no point does Bane actually successfully carry out one of Talia's orders; she only gives him one order and he promptly ignores it. Everything else is part of "our plan."

Talia, on the other hand, has a more personal feud with Bruce, and is less zealous about the League's goals and more viciously trying to punish Bruce for hurting her emotionally. This is a woman who has effectively had her parents ripped away from her in the same way Bruce's were, but where he was denied vengence by Falcone and grew beyond that Bane and into trying to build up his parent's legacy (the same way Bane seeks to build up Ra's legacy), she's already helped her father take revenge on her mother's killers and it's not exactly improved her maturity.

And while Talia does claim allegiance to her father's ideals, for her its all about the payback, baby. Whereas Bane sees torturing Bruce's soul as an added bonus to defeating him and focuses more on torturing the city, Talia wants to watch Bruce's face as she makes his whole life, all his sacrifices, meaningless. Her offer to take him somewhere on her plane takes on a very sinister undercurrent when you remember she's evil; she's trying to get to Bruce before Bane does.

Their overall plan is obviously something they both agree on, but the one detail they do seem to break on is the one that makes their different goals clear: Bane trys to kill Bruce as soon as possible when he believes (correctly) he might still be able to engineer some kind of rescue for Gotham, finally putting Ra's legacy to rest, while Talia wants him to live a few more moments in torture before he dies.

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:55 AM   #92
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I know I'm a little late on this topic, and someone may have already said this, but the League of Shadows only attacked Gotham because of Talia. Talia took control of the LoS (being the heir to the throne and all) and used Bane as her muscle to take down the city her father dedicated his life, and died, trying to take down. Talia didn't care if Gotham was clean or not, she just wanted her father's life goal to be complete.
"Innocent is a strong word to throw around Gotham, Bruce"....Talia in TDKR.

Nolan show us many times in Rises , through diverse artifices , the decadence of Gotham City .

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Old 01-03-2013, 10:58 AM   #93
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Ask any child shrink and they'll tell you that Talia and Bane's relationship would be father-daughter like and not brother-sister like. There are no exceptions, the parental figure in her life would be Bane because he was there from the beginning and Ra's was not. One does not simply meet their biological father for the first time at age 11 or 12 and see that person as their parent, and they never will because it's infused in the child's head that their father figure is the one who raised them.
Exactly

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Old 01-03-2013, 11:00 AM   #94
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Sort of. Talia represents the dark vengeance side of Bruce that strives to fulfill his father's goal of saving Gotham (but with very different methods), while Bane represents the pure need for justice from the circumstances he's experienced. Both are doing it out of their own need for justice, though, same as Bruce. They are presented as equals, both in it together, the plan would never have been that close to succeeding without the other. In either case, there are more than enough reasons presented within even the first page of this thread that back up the idea that the LOS would have wanted to attack Gotham again.

To sum it up: The LOS is a terrorist organization that disagrees with the values of Gotham's society. "When a society reaches the pinnacle of its decadence" they come back to reset the balance. The Gotham presented in TDKR is rife with examples of this (which are discussed in detail throughout the thread). It was never about street crime, it was about the balance of society and the values they adhere to. They attack Gotham because it is the biggest city that represents Western civilization, so by attacking it and changing their perception, it would have a domino effect throughout the Western world.
Nice post.

Of one the things i've started to notice is how Nolan proposes so many similarities between Bruce and...Talia. And its a nice parallel the one you said between Ra's/Thomas and Talia/Bruce.

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Old 01-03-2013, 11:13 AM   #95
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Originally Posted by jmc View Post
Ask any child shrink and they'll tell you that Talia and Bane's relationship would be father-daughter like and not brother-sister like. There are no exceptions, the parental figure in her life would be Bane because he was there from the beginning and Ra's was not. One does not simply meet their biological father for the first time at age 11 or 12 and see that person as their parent, and they never will because it's infused in the child's head that their father figure is the one who raised them.
Not entirely true, technically her first parental bond was with her mother. She's the one who was truly there from the beginning. Obviously she had curiosity about her father (one can only infer that her mother told her about him), which is why she seeks him out once she escaped the pit. It's not like Ra's just showed up at her doorstep one day unexpected; she showed up at his.

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Old 01-10-2013, 08:35 AM   #96
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

my theory was that gotham business had propped up the warlord and his prison provided slaves or his country had been made poor by him selling cheap resource to gotham.

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Old 01-12-2013, 05:45 AM   #97
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
Here's my two cents.

I'm a big supporter of the idea that Talia and Bane are equals and co-Big Bads of TDKR, and I believe the idea is strongly supported in the film. Some audience members discard all of Bane's previous monologues after the reveal, believeing that he was going out of his way to decieve Bruce and the audience about himself. I think that's wrong. All of Bane's speeches to Dagget and Bruce hint at a fanatical devotion to Ra's Al Ghul as his savior, role model, and ultimately some very twisted self perceptions.

Bane's whole demeanor and personality are pretty clearly cut from the same cloth as Ra's, but cut up crudely with broken scissors. Both men have a measured, verbose method of speaking, both have a veneer of gentlemanly manners around a ruthlessly cold interior, and both are highly charasmatic leaders of the League. But whereas all these traits are genuine in Ra's, Bane's are an imitation that's just kind of naturally more barbaric than his master. Bane's favorite posture-holding the lapels of his jacket or straps-is first shown in Batman Begins by Ra's doing the same thing. In the same way that Bruce's graying hair and beard draw a visual parallel with the "Ducard" persona of Ra's, Bane's personality parallels their mutual mentor's true self and ninja master manner.

Bane quite clearly holds to the League's goal of killing Gotham, which as other's have noted, is meant to be more of a strike against the world, to begin "the next era of western civilization." Bane has no intention of straightening out the Gothamites with harsh discipline; he intends to radically alter the culture and history of the West, in the same way that Rome's fall marks the beginning of the Dark Ages and Constantinople's fall leads to the internalization of European politics and their eventual imperialization.

The first fight has Bane going all out in proclaiming himself Ra's Al Ghul's heir and successor to the leadership of the LOS, and we have no reason to doubt that he does see himself that way. His biggest competition killed their predecessor, which even Loki notes won't gain you any friends. At no point does Bane actually successfully carry out one of Talia's orders; she only gives him one order and he promptly ignores it. Everything else is part of "our plan."

Talia, on the other hand, has a more personal feud with Bruce, and is less zealous about the League's goals and more viciously trying to punish Bruce for hurting her emotionally. This is a woman who has effectively had her parents ripped away from her in the same way Bruce's were, but where he was denied vengence by Falcone and grew beyond that Bane and into trying to build up his parent's legacy (the same way Bane seeks to build up Ra's legacy), she's already helped her father take revenge on her mother's killers and it's not exactly improved her maturity.

And while Talia does claim allegiance to her father's ideals, for her its all about the payback, baby. Whereas Bane sees torturing Bruce's soul as an added bonus to defeating him and focuses more on torturing the city, Talia wants to watch Bruce's face as she makes his whole life, all his sacrifices, meaningless. Her offer to take him somewhere on her plane takes on a very sinister undercurrent when you remember she's evil; she's trying to get to Bruce before Bane does.

Their overall plan is obviously something they both agree on, but the one detail they do seem to break on is the one that makes their different goals clear: Bane trys to kill Bruce as soon as possible when he believes (correctly) he might still be able to engineer some kind of rescue for Gotham, finally putting Ra's legacy to rest, while Talia wants him to live a few more moments in torture before he dies.
Well put.

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:03 PM   #98
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I really wanted the motivation to be something more along the lines of Gotham's peace being built on a lie and therefore flimsy and a fake peace, like Batman was to be punished for becoming corrupt to stop corruption. Sounds like League/Bane style 'justice' philosophy to me.

But if I recall right, the only mention of the lie or Harvey Dent at all by Bane is just to manipulate the people of Gotham to senselessly riot. Seemed more like a useful tool he stumbled upon later rather than a motivation. It was very sarcastically read too, the note, not sincere. That was the only moment I took issue with Bane's portrayal (which isn't Hardy's fault so much as the writing). Seems contrary to what one would expect of someone of his and the League's professed convictions.

This is what made me feel as though Bane didn't have a -point- to make like Ra's and the Joker did, and as much as I adore Hardy's performance and the design of the character and how they brought that presence to life, he ends up being the weakest major villain of the trilogy when it boils down to that. I WANT to call him the best, I was totally prepared to do so going in to the theater...

They had a MASSIVE opportunity to have a chilling, compelling plot based on elements of the last two movies such as this, but they just... avoided it. Cannot fathom why. I feel a little left out to dry or something.

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:14 PM   #99
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Originally Posted by jmc View Post
Ask any child shrink and they'll tell you that Talia and Bane's relationship would be father-daughter like and not brother-sister like. There are no exceptions, the parental figure in her life would be Bane because he was there from the beginning and Ra's was not. One does not simply meet their biological father for the first time at age 11 or 12 and see that person as their parent, and they never will because it's infused in the child's head that their father figure is the one who raised them.
It is preposterously naive and presumptuous to see that as the only possible outcome of their relationship. Even if it were true 99% of the time, there would still always be an exception. That's just nature for you.

Furthermore, even if that is the case, you might still have an idealized version of your parent that you still seek. Ask any adopted child. Whether or not they've actually sought them out, they've all wondered about it at some point.

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Old 01-12-2013, 09:43 PM   #100
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Thumbs up Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
I really wanted the motivation to be something more along the lines of Gotham's peace being built on a lie and therefore flimsy and a fake peace, like Batman was to be punished for becoming corrupt to stop corruption. Sounds like League/Bane style 'justice' philosophy to me.

But if I recall right, the only mention of the lie or Harvey Dent at all by Bane is just to manipulate the people of Gotham to senselessly riot. Seemed more like a useful tool he stumbled upon later rather than a motivation. It was very sarcastically read too, the note, not sincere. That was the only moment I took issue with Bane's portrayal (which isn't Hardy's fault so much as the writing). Seems contrary to what one would expect of someone of his and the League's professed convictions.

This is what made me feel as though Bane didn't have a -point- to make like Ra's and the Joker did, and as much as I adore Hardy's performance and the design of the character and how they brought that presence to life, he ends up being the weakest major villain of the trilogy when it boils down to that. I WANT to call him the best, I was totally prepared to do so going in to the theater...

They had a MASSIVE opportunity to have a chilling, compelling plot based on elements of the last two movies such as this, but they just... avoided it. Cannot fathom why. I feel a little left out to dry or something.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.

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