Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

[Tequilla]

People look for spoilers and reveals before watching a movie , and then they say they weren't surprised. Funny

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by PyroChamber

Even without seeing the pics, I'm sure people would have seen it coming after that one scene of her looking out the window during the big brawl.

Which is precisely why I feel adamant that it was not meant to be a twist in the truest sense of the word. Nolan is practically begging the audience to figure it out before he shows his full hand.

[the last son]

I was shocked because I was not on these boards much and didn't see the photos and all of that stuff. I did have a feeling she might have been Talia but once the movie kept progressing I felt wow she must not be Talia. So yes I was shocked.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by The Joker

It was one of the most unsurprising movie twists I've ever seen. Clear as day pics of Cottiard in LOS garb walking casually with armed LOS men were all over the net a year before the movie's release.

One of the worst kept secrets for a movie.

One of the most unsurprising twists for you, sure. And even for the majority of us here at SHH. But every person that I saw the film with (none of them being news/picture-seeking whores like ourselves) was completely surprised and loved the twist.

For the most part, the twist being one of the "worst kept secrets for a movie" comes down to this: the decision to shoot that final sequence outdoors and on location. I, for one, am still more than happy with that final "war" because it's a beautiful sequence that feels 10x more authentic than it would have felt if it was shot in front of green screens or on a set with CGI additions. That was clearly Nolan's thinking behind it, as well.

And even with those pics leaking and the rumors being afloat for months, so many were never exposed to them and were completely surprised. I didn't read one major review that complained about a "completely obvious twist" or anything like that.

We Hypesters weren't surpsied because we are all keen detectives when it comes to these things and have spoiled countless movies for ourselves over the years.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by theShape

One of the most unsurprising twists for you, sure. And even for the majority of us here at SHH. But every person that I saw the film with (none of them being news/picture-seeking whores like ourselves) was completely surprised and loved the twist.

A well kept movie secret doesn't get splashed all over the internet in PICTORIAL form for anyone to see. It's got nothing to do with being a news seeking whore. This was dangled in front of our noses.

And even with those pics leaking and the rumors being afloat for months, so many were never exposed to them and were completely surprised. I didn't read one major review that complained about a "completely obvious twist" or anything like that.

There's loads of reviews that said it was obvious. Cottiard was even being asked in interviews before the movie was released if she was Talia, and she was denying it; http://www.craveonline.com/film/arti...k-knight-rises

Then you had little Joey King revealing it, too; http://www.totalfilm.com/news/joey-k...-rises-spoiler That's being reported by tons of movie websites like Total Film which loads of casual movie goers read.

It was all as subtle as a brick. Awful kept secret. Just awful.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by The Joker

A well kept movie secret doesn't get splashed all over the internet in PICTORIAL form for anyone to see. It's got nothing to do with being a news seeking whore. This was dangled in front of our noses.



There's loads of reviews that said it was obvious. Cottiard was even being asked in interviews before the movie was released if she was Talia, and she was denying it; http://www.craveonline.com/film/arti...k-knight-rises

Then you had little Joey King revealing it, too; http://www.totalfilm.com/news/joey-k...-rises-spoiler That's being reported by tons of movie websites like Total Film which loads of casual movie goers read.

It was all as subtle as a brick. Awful kept secret. Just awful.

Again, there's no statistic to prove this, but it seems like the amount of people who were exposed to those set pics and big "reveal" by a completely unknown child actor is completely miniscule compared the the actual amount of people who saw the movie worldwide.

Was it as well-kept of a secret as the ending of Psycho or The Sixth Sense? Not at all, but that's tough to do in this day and age. It's not as if this massive spoiler was being blasted all over the different formats of mainstream news. I'm also willing to bet that if Batman Begins were shot in 2011 under the extremely high level of scrutiny and coverage that TDKR's shooting received, that spoiler would have seen some internet attention as well.

I'm just saying that I don't really blame Christopher Nolan for this at all. We know the dude keeps his films heavily guarded, but that became increasingly difficult to do as the series progressed, especially after TDK became one of the biggest films ever.

[theShape]

I'd also love to read some of the 'loads' of reviews that lauded the twist as obvious. And I'm not talking about reviews written by internet fanboys or people that write for a niche audience of extreme comic book fans.

[BatLobsterRises]

Talia's reveal was meant to be about as much as a surprise as the reveal of the "grumpy" clown goon as The Joker IMO. Which was also spoiled via spy pics, btw.

It's not just her identity that gets revealed in the "twist" though. It's the fact that she was the child in the pit, it's what we learn about Bane from it. What we learn about what Bruce, Bane, Talia and Ra's have in common and how they contrast with one another. It's about the thematic clarity it offers.

A twist IMO, is something that's meant to turn the entire story on its head. The Talia reveal doesn't turn the story on its head, it actually brings it into greater focus, offering illumination and thematic resonance.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Talia's reveal was meant to be about as much as a surprise as the reveal of the "grumpy" clown goon as The Joker IMO. Which was also spoiled via spy pics, btw.

LOL.

The biggest give-away is the brief close up shot on the scar on her back after she ****ed Bruce. It's like "DING DING DING. We have a villain, folks!"

[theShape]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

It's not just her identity that gets revealed in the "twist" though. It's the fact that she was the child in the pit, it's what we learn about Bane from it. What we learn about what Bruce, Bane, Talia and Ra's have in common and how they contrast with one another. It's about the thematic clarity it offers.

A twist IMO, is something that's meant to turn the entire story on its head. The Talia reveal doesn't turn the story on its head, it actually brings it into greater focus and offers illumination and thematic resonance.

Great point. IMO, the biggest reason why her character was meant to be a secret going into the film was to preserve the structure of the story more than anything and to keep viewers invested in the backstory of that child and the Pit.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

People look for spoilers and reveals before watching a movie , and then they say they weren't surprised. Funny

No, we didn't.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by theShape

Again, there's no statistic to prove this, but it seems like the amount of people who were exposed to those set pics and big "reveal" by a completely unknown child actor is completely miniscule compared the the actual amount of people who saw the movie worldwide.

Really, and where's your statistic to prove that?

Was it as well-kept of a secret as the ending of Psycho or The Sixth Sense? Not at all, but that's tough to do in this day and age. It's not as if this massive spoiler was being blasted all over the different formats of mainstream news. I'm also willing to bet that if Batman Begins were shot in 2011 under the extremely high level of scrutiny and coverage that TDKR's shooting received, that spoiler would have seen some internet attention as well.

You can bet and theorize all you like. You're talking conjecture you can't prove.

This plot point was all over the net in pics that were taken like they were ON SET, clear as day, and WB didn't even bother have them taken down. Then you had a cast member confirm it, too.

To say it was a badly kept secret is an understatement.

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Talia's reveal was meant to be about as much as a surprise as the reveal of the "grumpy" clown goon as The Joker IMO. Which was also spoiled via spy pics, btw.

You must be joking! They showed Joker's prologue months in advance before the movie was released. It was not meant to be a secret. Nor did they build a whole load of subterfuge around that through the movie like they did with making the audience think Bane was the child of Ra's who escaped the pit. Even bringing in Liam Neeson for a cameo to confirm that for Bruce.

Bad analogy, Batlobster. Really bad.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Really, and where's your statistic to prove that?

Clearly stated there was no statistic other than good ol' common sense. Are you suggesting that out of the MILLIONS of people who viewed TDKR in theaters and now on home video and on demand...that a majority of them knew that Miranda Tate was Talia al Ghul beforehand? Because I was suggesting that yeah, thousands of people must have seen those pics or read spoilers somewhere online, but that is a small number compared to the actual number of people who eventually viewed the film.

I think this is a quite logical way of looking at it, rather than "EVERYONE KNEW IT!!!"

You can bet and theorize all you like. You're talking conjecture you can't prove.

To say it was a badly kept secret is an understatement.

We're both pretty much talking conjecture at this point, if you think about it. I'm saying that it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and the "leaks" didn't hurt the film critically or financially. You're saying that this was one of the worst kept secrets in film history and you seem to be suggesting that a many more people knew the secret beforehand compared to what I am suggesting. There were, in fact, leaks on the internet, but we're debating the reach of ultimate effect of those leaks on the film in the eyes of audience members (not just hardcore fans).

Where's the statistics or proof for either of our statements?

[/QUOTE]

[Excelsior.]

Not to mention Joker's revealed face and grin, even after seeing bootlegs of the prologue a countless times, the film a countless times, remains one of the most joyful moments ever in the Trilogy.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by The Joker

You must be joking! They showed Joker's prologue months in advance before the movie was released. It was not meant to be a secret. Nor did they build a whole load of subterfuge around that through the movie like they did with making the audience think Bane was the child of Ra's who escaped the pit. Even bringing in Liam Neeson for a cameo to confirm that for Bruce.

Bad analogy, Batlobster. Really bad.

I'm half-kidding. My point is the prologue itself was like its own little short film, right? To me it's like the same concept, only applied to an entire film. A Micro/macro kinda thing.

It's pretty obvious that the Grumpy clown is kind of suspicious and up to no good and is using the people around him, just like it's pretty obvious that Miranda Tate is kind of suspicious and probably up to no good and using the people around her. That's all I am trying to say. I stand by it!

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

Not to mention Joker's revealed face and grin, even after seeing bootlegs of the prologue a countless times, the film a countless times, remains one of the most joyful moments ever in the Trilogy.

But of course.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by theShape

Clearly stated there was no statistic other than good ol' common sense. Are you suggesting that out of the MILLIONS of people who viewed TDKR in theaters and now on home video and on demand...that a majority of them knew that Miranda Tate was Talia al Ghul beforehand?

Yes, since common sense tells you millions of people read the internet, movie websites etc, how easy word of mouth spreads, and how it was reported on movie websites that don't even specifically cater to what you called spoiler whores looking for every little scrap of detail about the movie.

These were cast interviews and actual photos plastered everywhere about it. It wasn't some tiny little rumor that a handful of websites were whispering about that only caught the ears of die hard fanboys. Marion Cottiard was being asked by interviewers if she was playing a villainess called Talia. That''s how much attention it caught.

I think this is a quite logical way of looking at it, rather than "EVERYONE KNEW IT!!!"

Oh no, I'm not suggesting nearly everyone who set foot into the theater knew it. But a good sizable percentage, at least half I'd say, knew it.

We're both pretty much talking conjecture at this point, if you think about it. I'm saying that it wasn't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things and the "leaks" didn't hurt the film critically or financially. You're saying that this was one of the worst kept secrets in film history and you seem to be suggesting that a many more people knew the secret beforehand compared to what I am suggesting. There were, in fact, leaks on the internet, but we're debating the reach of ultimate effect of those leaks on the film in the eyes of audience members (not just hardcore fans).

I'm not saying it hurt the movie financially, critically on the other hand I'd say that's debatable, given how under utilized and insignificant Cottiard's character was often criticized for.

It is one of the worst kept movie secrets. Easily. What great movie twists can you mention that were leaked the way this was? Give me an answer to that then you've got your stats to prove it.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by jmc

No, we didn't.

Really? Because there was a large portion of posters around here who were basically like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlBRzjSniYI) during the barren spells of TDKR's production.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

Really? Because there was a large portion of posters around here who were basically like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlBRzjSniYI) during the barren spells of TDKR's production.

What your failing to take into consideration is the discussion before production started.

[BatmanBeyond]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

A twist IMO, is something that's meant to turn the entire story on its head. The Talia reveal doesn't turn the story on its head, it actually brings it into greater focus, offering illumination and thematic resonance.

While I'm not disputing the significance of the pseudo-twist that you're underlining here, I do think it could've been executed a bit differently. I remember that the first time I saw the movie in theaters, my mind immediately thought that it was done for the sole purpose of establishing Talia as the main villain to the detriment of Bane. While further analysis of the pseudo-twist in the context of the movie revealed that that wasn't the case at all, I can certainly see why it would come off as such. On first viewings at least.

[Ryan]

Originally Posted by kvz5

Yeah... And I remember a lot thinking that it can't be it. It can't be that simple. There has to be something more. It's Nolan after all.

I was one of those thinking that as well. Oops I was wrong as well

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond

While I'm not disputing the significance of the pseudo-twist that you're underlining here, I do think it could've been executed a bit differently. I remember that the first time I saw the movie in theaters, my mind immediately thought that it was done for the sole purpose of establishing Talia as the main villain to the detriment of Bane. While further analysis of the pseudo-twist in the context of the movie revealed that that wasn't the case at all, I can certainly see why it would come off as such. On first viewings at least.

Exactly. On first viewing, I could understand. On the surface level it comes off that way.

But the thing with Nolan is he builds his movies for multiple viewings. He tried to do it in a way where it could be a surprise to a lot of people (IE the general audience), but also executed it in a way where in retrospect it is painfully obvious. Like it's more of a blind spot for Bruce than the audience. You see her in full LoS garb, he throws her the gun. It's like "Don't do that!"

It's because of that kind of stuff that my first viewing of TDKR was probably least enjoyable, and it only got better for me from there. Unfortunately, first impressions tend to be very important, so I understand why people would be upset if they felt the twist was weak. I would probably feel the same if it came out of nowhere, but still works on the level of tying up the plot thread about the child in the pit. It makes the story better. If it was just that Bane escaped as a child and then Bruce did the same as a man and that's the end of that, it would have left a lot to be desired. The way they structured it, it needed more payoff than that. And the structuring of the story in a way that prolonged Talia's reveal until the last possible moment was a nice way to get some added punch and save the revelations until the end.

Another reason it works structurally is just because in these films the villain always plays their hand at the end. Ra's reveals his identity and plans for Gotham. We see what Joker's endgame truly is. With TDKR, the villains' plan is already firmly in motion halfway through the film, so this serves as that beat. What's nice is the added tension of Batman having a knife between his ribs as he learns all of this when Gotham is 11 minutes from going up in a mushroom cloud. I've said it before but Talia's reveal is actually one of my favorite scenes in the film.

[MagnarTheGreat]

[BatLobsterRises]

Is that supposed to be a thumbs up? Cause if not, I'm going to pretend it is anyway

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Exactly. On first viewing, I could understand. On the surface level it comes off that way.

But the thing with Nolan is he builds his movies for multiple viewings. He tried to do it in a way where it could be a surprise to a lot of people (IE the general audience), but also executed it in a way where in retrospect it is painfully obvious. Like it's more of a blind spot for Bruce than the audience. You see her in full LoS garb, he throws her the gun. It's like "Don't do that!"

It's because of that kind of stuff that my first viewing of TDKR was probably least enjoyable, and it only got better for me from there. Unfortunately, first impressions tend to be very important, so I understand why people would be upset if they felt the twist was weak. I would probably feel the same if it came out of nowhere, but still works on the level of tying up the plot thread about the child in the pit. It makes the story better. If it was just that Bane escaped as a child and then Bruce did the same as a man and that's the end of that, it would have left a lot to be desired. The way they structured it, it needed more payoff than that. And the structuring of the story in a way that prolonged Talia's reveal until the last possible moment was a nice way to get some added punch and save the revelations until the end.

Another reason it works structurally is just because in these films the villain always plays their hand at the end. Ra's reveals his identity and plans for Gotham. We see what Joker's endgame truly is. With TDKR, the villains' plan is already firmly in motion halfway through the film, so this serves as that beat. What's nice is the added tension of Batman having a knife between his ribs as he learns all of this when Gotham is 11 minutes from going up in a mushroom cloud. I've said it before but Talia's reveal is actually one of my favorite scenes in the film.

Agreed. Although Bruce being, literally, stabbed in the back is another of those less subtle Nolan touches, everything you said about it thematically is spot on. I felt the same way on my initial viewing, being slightly letdown, but the film stands as my second favorite after multiple viewings at home.

Bane's little speech to Batman during the sewer fight pretty much confirms he wasn't the child ("I didn't see the light until I was already a man") and showing Miranda's scar served no other purpose than blatant foreshadowing, so on second thought, I don't know how much of a "reveal" Nolan intended it to be. But what it means to the overall structure of not only this film but the trilogy as a whole, served a higher purpose than just a tantalizing twist. Still wish it weren't spoiled at all though, no matter how much foreshadowing gave it away...

[kvz5]

Was knowing the "twist" (Miranda's reveal) the root of people's issues with the movie though? It might be part of the lack of enjoyment for some but I doubt that it's the only reason. Personally, the things I enjoyed and din't enjoy with the movie still remain the same regardless if I knew the twist beforehand or not. My issues with the movie is way beyond that twist.