EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

[E-Man]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

That's exactly what I was thinking. I would want to make it a kind of reveal, bypassing the need to go much into how and why she took the assignment, and at the end of the film she breaks with the CIA. I guess it would add to the tension of their interaction if she was shown reporting to her superiors earlier, and holding something back, or disagreeing with her orders. I really like the idea of them courting while playing a game of secrets. That could be a LOT of fun, and really make her something absolutely incredible for the film. It also makes it more fun if the Dora Milaje are suspicious/jealous of her.

I wouldn't have Monica and T'Challa actually settle together/happily ever after. It'd be that "No, you have a kingdom to run and... responsibilities (snide look at the Dora)... my life is elsewhere..." but you still know there's unfinished business there, that whole shtick.

I would leave Everett Ross as the clear State Department wannabe-Ambassador, total scaredy-cat, where his arc is basically T'Challa teaching him to grow a pair, which is why he's accepted as an American ambassador to Wakanda because he has the gall to defend Wakanda's interests to his superiors.

I just got this crazy idea in my head for a nice echo/foreshadowing. Earlier in the film as T'Challa is telling Ross about the Black Panther Legacy all the hersay about T'Chaka is mentioned "The Black Panther can sneak up on you in broad daylight, The Black Panther has weapons that make the nuclear bomb look like sticks and stones, The Black Panther can put 1,000 men to flight by himself, The Black Panther fears nothing but his own relentless power." As the movie continues, these things become true of T'Challa so at the end when the Chiefs of Staff are all "we can't let this man usurp this asset" Ross is like "No, you don't understand... The Black Panther can sneak up on you in broad daylight..."

On S'yan, I also imagined an early fight scene being T'Challa taking the mantle of BP from S'yan via combat. I guess a Morgan Freeman stuntman wouldn't be all that convincing from a visual perspective. I'd put Djimon in there as S'Yan then. Tim Russ is awesome too though.

And those three, with T'Challa, Klaw and to some degree M'Baka, would be the core cast in my version of the film. S'yan would take that advisor role and be the mentor that gets killed. Lynne for romance, Ross for comic relief, Klaw as a crazy mastermind villain, M'Baka as the muscle villain.

Now what would be REALLY crazy is if Monica Lynne was just the cover and her actual name was Monica Rambeau or worse: Misty Knight, lol!

That is a ****ing awesome line! I'm going to steal it and put it in my sig. That's a perfect way to define Black Panther.

The stuntman thing with S'yan is one of the reasons why I wanted Wesley Snipes as S'Yan. That way we could see how he'd do Panther without him actually being T'Challa. He is about to get out of prison if he isn't already, and he's got a good enough name to add to things. He'd kill in that role.

[Hawkingbird]

Out of all the solo speculations on this thread (Ms Marvel, Spider-Woman, Doctor Strange ect), this is the only one I can actually see happening.

[chamber-music]

Chiwetel Ejiofor as Black Panther art I came across






John Boyega, Thandie Newton, Chiwetel and the rest of the Half of a Yellow Sun cast. Some people had Boyega as a younger T'challa on their casting wishlists.

Caped Ejiofor

[DrCosmic]

Originally Posted by Blackman

I dont know if I was the first to come up with it, but I did say a couple months ago that Lynne would be better if reimagined as a Government Agent

I say have her accompany Everett Ross when he comes to Wakanda and eventually she gets swept up in the plot

I don't know if you were the first, but I'm pretty sure I got it from you. It's a really great idea.

Originally Posted by E-Man

That is a ****ing awesome line! I'm going to steal it and put it in my sig. That's a perfect way to define Black Panther.

The stuntman thing with S'yan is one of the reasons why I wanted Wesley Snipes as S'Yan. That way we could see how he'd do Panther without him actually being T'Challa. He is about to get out of prison if he isn't already, and he's got a good enough name to add to things. He'd kill in that role.

Thanks man! Snipes crossed my mind too. He gets out in early 2013, I believe. It'll be interesting to see what films he does first. It'd be awesome if he had a RDJ-like career revival.

Originally Posted by tamron

I wouldn't want there to be a deliberate "reveal" moment. Like T'Challa out and out going "I know you're CIA..."

I'd want it to be Usual Suspects-like. Lynne is on the chopper out. Right before takeoff, he casually calls back something very minor she said about him in a CIA briefing. And as she's overhead, she suddenly thinks back over the events of the movie and realizes T'Challa gamed her.

I agree, no happy ever after for T'Challa and Lynne. They've always been star-crossed and the movie should be true to that.

That could be cool too... extremely cool. I had this idea of a reveal involving T'Challa giving Lynne a weapon and "Okay, really, Agent Lynne..." when she acts reticent, but it might be cooler if T'Challa arranges for a weapon to fall to her in a moment of crisis, and she later realizes it was entirely purposeful. Especially if she's been feeding the CIA false information on his behalf.

There would have to be a line in there, to somehow underscore than their relationship is still very real despite her realizing he'd been palying her.

Djimon could definitely work as S'Yan. However, the reason I'd want him as T'Chaka is because of how big I feel T'Chaka's part needs to be in terms of impact, if not screen time.

I would want the character of T'Chaka and his tenure as Black Panther kind of built up as a legend within the legend of Panthers. I'd want his death to be a major moment in the film, and for his legacy to loom large after his death. Think Mufasa in The Lion King. Because of all that, I want Djimon in that role because he has the screen presence to really pull that off.

T'Challa's character arc in the first film should be him coming to terms with the shadow his father casts and coming into his own. A lot of Black Panther's villains pop up because of breaks he makes with "the old ways". So to me, you really have to set up and show T'Challa doing his own thing against the grain to set up the conflicts with an M'Baku or a Killmonger well.

I see T'Chaka as "the mentor that gets killed". S'Yan is too important to kill off, at least in film 1. He's an audience gateway. S'Yan's the one guy T'Challa can be completely honest with, there are no facades for T'Challa to maintain with him. S'Yan also can casually explain tropes of Wakandan culture (Hetut Zeraze, Dora Milaje, etc) for the general audiences' benefit.

Hmmm... The Mufassa comparison is interesting. I don't see a Black Panther film as quite as epic as Batman Begins, where we kinda get to go through all the major events of the character's life - at least, not with the current Marvel Studios planning and pace. But if we are talking about more than two hours and fifteen minutes, by all means, go for it.

[tamron]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

Hmmm... The Mufassa comparison is interesting. I don't see a Black Panther film as quite as epic as Batman Begins, where we kinda get to go through all the major events of the character's life - at least, not with the current Marvel Studios planning and pace. But if we are talking about more than two hours and fifteen minutes, by all means, go for it.

I think it can work.

Start the movie framing it w/ the intelligence briefing. T'Challa at present day is returning to Wakanda following the completion of his studies abroad. They're trying to figure out whether he will be friend or foe. They recap what they "know" about T'Challa from their dossier, which gives the chance to flashback certain key events, like T'Chaka's death.

Ultimately, Lynne is put in play to try to get closer, obtain better intel. Then maybe one of the things they think they "know" ends up being the twist that T'Challa games Lynne on like we we're talking about.

As an example, it could be the vibranium mound. Maybe in the MCU they don't know for sure the vibranium mound exists and he manages to convince her its part of the myth surrounding the Panther mantle.

[DrCosmic]

I mean, that's kinda what I was thinking, but I'm not sure that T'Chaka's death can have the full Mufassa effect, as I think of it, without giving us time to get attached to him as a character on his own. I would definitely have his death pictured in a flashback, and define T'Challa as a person, and have an additional flashback in his time of darkness/need/third act preparation stuff. But the audience isn't going to cry for T'Chaka unless he gets time to be a hero and he has a nice peaceful "everything the light touches"/"we'll always be together, right dad?" moment.

I think the closest thing you can get without taking twenty minutes to show T'Challa's childhood is the "Kirk's Dad effect" from the latest Star Trek. We see Kirk's dad do so much in the first five to ten minutes of the film that (according to the commentary) some people thought it was Captain James Kirk in action... then he died and they figured it out. Something similar with T'Chaka might be nice, and we could see visually how T'Chaka's shadow could loom so large, even if we don't get to see the attachment with T'Challa too well... but maybe even that could get some quick bullet point exploration if since T'Challa would be available as a child to be told he's not measuring up, that he lacks discipline and doesn't know where he comes from. Then T'Chaka takes out a strike force in ceremonial garb in rare form, then Klaw gets a lucky hit in. Does that sound like something cool?

Edit: On Lynne, I'm not sure, I want it to be clear that she's totally on T'Challa's side by the end of the film... I think she's more sympathetic that way, rather than needing to be kept in the dark, does that make sense?

[tamron]

Originally Posted by DrCosmic

I mean, that's kinda what I was thinking, but I'm not sure that T'Chaka's death can have the full Mufassa effect, as I think of it, without giving us time to get attached to him as a character on his own. I would definitely have his death pictured in a flashback, and define T'Challa as a person, and have an additional flashback in his time of darkness/need/third act preparation stuff. But the audience isn't going to cry for T'Chaka unless he gets time to be a hero and he has a nice peaceful "everything the light touches"/"we'll always be together, right dad?" moment.

I think the closest thing you can get without taking twenty minutes to show T'Challa's childhood is the "Kirk's Dad effect" from the latest Star Trek. We see Kirk's dad do so much in the first five to ten minutes of the film that (according to the commentary) some people thought it was Captain James Kirk in action... then he died and they figured it out. Something similar with T'Chaka might be nice, and we could see visually how T'Chaka's shadow could loom so large, even if we don't get to see the attachment with T'Challa too well... but maybe even that could get some quick bullet point exploration if since T'Challa would be available as a child to be told he's not measuring up, that he lacks discipline and doesn't know where he comes from. Then T'Chaka takes out a strike force in ceremonial garb in rare form, then Klaw gets a lucky hit in. Does that sound like something cool?

Edit: On Lynne, I'm not sure, I want it to be clear that she's totally on T'Challa's side by the end of the film... I think she's more sympathetic that way, rather than needing to be kept in the dark, does that make sense?

Put in that light, yea, maybe Kirk's dad is a more fitting comparison.

I agree with you, that Monica being on his side is important. Equally important though, is showing T'Challa is choosing his duty over his desires. I don't want him blabbing state secrets and just trusting her because he's smitten.

You've got to build it where she understands why he did what he did, and her understanding that his duty will always be the elephant in the room causing them to always be strained. Maybe she delivers a briefing of her findings in the denouement and witholds something from her superiors so that we the audience are explicitly clear on where she stands.

[E-Man]

Originally Posted by tamron

Put in that light, yea, maybe Kirk's dad is a more fitting comparison.

I agree with you, that Monica being on his side is important. Equally important though, is showing T'Challa is choosing his duty over his desires. I don't want him blabbing state secrets and just trusting her because he's smitten.

You've got to build it where she understands why he did what he did, and her understanding that his duty will always be the elephant in the room causing them to always be strained. Maybe she delivers a briefing of her findings in the denouement and witholds something from her superiors so that we the audience are explicitly clear on where she stands.

They really need to make sure that they actually get T'Challa's personality down when he's with Monica so that we don't have one of those stupid moments in superhero movies where the protagonist gives up secrets just because they're in love. Of all the characters T'Challa is the complete opposite of that! I can see him being in love and smitten, but they have to make sure that he's not the one that does stupidly cliche stuff in the name of love. He's a poker player that plays all his card to the chest, so I'd hate it if they made him some love struck idiot when he's with Monica.

[DrCosmic]

Hmmm... this is interesting...

On the one hand T'Challa can't give up anything useful because he's supposed to be duty first, on the other hand, if T'Challa never gives anything useful, then the game has no stakes. It becomes a trick played on the audience, not just Lynne. Her not delivering information means nothing unless she has information to give for instance. It'd be interesting if what she ended up with after all the gaming was a personal secret of his, and not a state secret so to speak. I'm going to keep thinking about that.

It also might be T'Challa-like if revealing a secret is what turns Lynne to an asset making it all still in character and further evidence of his genius.

It's funny, T'Challa is the opposite of, say, Peter Parker, but he's also the guy who it makes sense for him to take off his mask every five minutes, or in emotional moments and what not.

[E-Man]

Now that I think about it I could see them wanting him to keep the mask on more often than how they keep unmasking heroes. I could see the director saying, "Hey now. Everyone knows he's the Black Panther, so we could have him unmasked all the time without it looking silly like in the Spider-man movies." Then you'd hear a producer in the background saying, "NO! We gotta keep him masked as much as possible so that they don't know it's a black guy underneath it! As a matter of fact, we need more Ross! More Ross!" lol

[terry78]

Pull a Spawn, huh?

[Hypestyle]

hopefully something will come together this year.. I'd like to see another animated solo adaptation, but this with the anime' style of the recent x-men, iron man, blade adaptations.. ah..

[tamron]

I think we're looking at Phase 3 at best. IM3, Thor 2, Cap 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant-Man, Avengers 2, all on the docket.

At 2 movies a year, right there we're looking at a 2015 start for a 2016 BP movie at best. In addition, we know that Marvel also wants Doc Strange, is considering Nova, has considered a Nick Fury/Widow or War Machine, could be convinced to do a Hulk 2. And of course, more sequels to the proven properties. So even Phase 3 is optimistic.

I want a Black Panther film bad, I don't know if Marvel does. Prove me wrong, Feige. Please.

[chamber-music]

Marvel Studios' co-president Louis D'Esposito said august last year

“I love Black Panther, he is one of my favorite characters. But before we have a filmmaker on board, it is difficult to do anything. Because we want to involve them in the processes such as casting or design issues or even other areas for which one hires a director.” He continues, “So if we have a director on board and knew that we would turn Black Panther or Luke Cage and Ms. Marvel or whatever for a figure that is, then we would do maybe. But right now it is logistically a difficult hurdle.”

Marvel Studios co-president Louis D'Esposito also said this

“T’Challa has a lot of the same characteristics of a Captain America: great character, good values. But the movie might be difficult to pull off, he said, because of having to create Wakanda from the ground up. It’s always easier basing it here. For instance, ‘Iron Man 3’ is rooted right here in Los Angeles and New York. When you bring in other worlds, you’re always faced with those difficulties.”

[tamron]

I read those quotes and don't feel they run counter to my point. Sounds they are not actively seeking talent for a BP film, rather they're content to wait for someone to approach them who will make it worth their while like Edgar Wright did with Ant-Man.

[spideymouse]

Originally Posted by tamron

I read those quotes and don't feel they run counter to my point. Sounds they are not actively seeking talent for a BP film, rather they're content to wait for someone to approach them who will make it worth their while like Edgar Wright did with Ant-Man.

Then Edgar Wright had better deliver a masterpiece, since he'll have to have made it worth a LONG while (9 years!).

[RockSP]

Ah, yes. The infamous "Wakanda would be difficult" quote. Because Asgard and talking space trees and space raccoons are easy to pull off.

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by tamron

I read those quotes and don't feel they run counter to my point. Sounds they are not actively seeking talent for a BP film, rather they're content to wait for someone to approach them who will make it worth their while like Edgar Wright did with Ant-Man.

I wasn't trying to counter your point

Originally Posted by RockSP

Ah, yes. The infamous "Wakanda would be difficult" quote. Because Asgard and talking space trees and space raccoons are easy to pull off.

I thought the same thing when I read that.

I don't think Black Panther is any more difficult to pull off than Thor.

[tamron]

Originally Posted by chamber-music

I wan't trying to counter your point

Oh. My bad.

Carry on.

[terry78]

Considering how well Django was received, Waltz being more of the main character at some points notwithstanding, I would hope Hollywood would take pause and see that a black lead in an action flick would be profitable.

[chamber-music]

Originally Posted by terry78

Considering how well Django was received, Waltz being more of the main character at some points notwithstanding, I would hope Hollywood would take pause and see that a black lead in an action flick would be profitable.

Sadly I doubt it.

There are parts of Hollywood that will always looks for an excuse to not want to give black men leads in big budget movies.

Guys like Taylor Kitcsh will still get more oppertunities than than the majority of his contemporaries.

People like Will Smith and Denzel Washington are the exceptions to the rule. Those guys aren't getting any younger either.

[the last son]

I really want a BP movie bad. I agree that Waltz would be the perfect way to go as a villain. I think he would jump at the opportunity too. I also agree with Django should show that black leads can be profitable if the movie is good

[DrCosmic]

Django isn't really doing that well, unfortunately. Hollywood won't "get it" until there's a big breakout (financially) with what is perceived to be mediocre talent. As soon as they think anyone can do it, anyone will. But even then, wouldn't it just be a new wave of blaxploitation?

Originally Posted by RockSP

Ah, yes. The infamous "Wakanda would be difficult" quote. Because Asgard and talking space trees and space raccoons are easy to pull off.

Man, your sig is so my belief system right now. Anyway, call me irresponsible, but I actually understand what D'Esposito's saying. With Asgard and even space trees and racoons you're building on all the classic fantasy and sci-fi that's come before. Asgard is just another Cloud City. Rocket Racoon is just another Ewok. Groot is just an Ent. Talking trees, deceptively cuddly aliens, magical/alien cities. People are used to seeing this stuff and you can call back to it, and earn these things from an audience with the right camera shots. But an advanced African city?!? That's just a new... just a more advanced... um. Hn. This is part of the reason BP's first appearance had the Wakandans living in huts and hiding their supertech ni vines, and why still today Wakdandan guards carry (and throw!) super-powered spears. A movie would have to convince people to believe in an advanced African country "from the ground up." That's why they don't think it can be done with the sort of assembly line process they've used to produce Thor and Cap.

But the overall issue for the MCU is that with the films they have, they have everything that they really want. They're satisfied frontlining these guys, making billions and bringing in minorities and women as cool supporting cast. If someone wants to bring in any other characters, white, black, etc, man or woman, then it lies with them to show how it's worth it to the MCU, money wise. We already know people have approached them about BP, but they're looking for a big name, like Edgar Wright for Ant-Man.

And that's part of the problem with black entertainment under white leadership: being black is going to continually be considered an handicap, so where is the big name (Priest, Hudlin, Denzel, Will Smith, Quentin Tarantino, George Lucas) to make it worth the investment? Middling creators need not apply.

So it's like you quoted, the major companies can't tell our stories. That goes for Disney and WB every bit as much as Marvel and DC.

[the last son]

Django is doing that well. I mean what is well. #1 in the box office ..it's easily going to become QT most profitable film

[DrCosmic]

I really wish I didn't have the perspective I have on black film... I guess that's the best I can say.